Can we re-visit this whole catching thing for a moment?

[DocBauer]

OK, I know that sooner or later this will turn in to a Mauer should be a catcher again no matter what, or just leave town, along with Ryan, in a van rented by Robinson, with Nunez riding shotgun as they are all responsible for the fall and failure of anything Minnesota Twins related. But before that happens, I've been doing an awful lot of thinking about this whole Twins catcher position thing lately.

 

Now, no matter where you want to take an arguement about ML catchers, I think the ONE THING, the one solitary thing we can all agree on is that what makes a great catcher, what truly defines one, what is most important...is rather difficult to define. It's much like a top, franchise NFL QB, or a top Oscar worthy actor, and legendary musician...they just have that "IT" factor. And the Twins aren't going to find a HIM with IT, more than likely, this off season. But it is the one position on the diamond that I think most of us can agree is the biggest question mark moving forward.

 

(I understand the whole SS thing, but, there are options there. There is potential there. It doesn't totally suck. There are even some more guys lower in the minors to be encouraged about. And besides, this is about the catching position, remember?)

 

Let me be clear, I am NOT saying the Twins shouldn't overturn rocks, make calls, and pull out all stops to acquire a nice young catcher for the 2016 season. And I rather like, again, I think it was Leviathan but am not 100% certain, who basically called for the Twins to call every ML team with a young catcher on the bench, ready to graduate to the ML's, or who might be starting now ahead of another even more highly ranked/regarded prospect and just see what all the asking prices are, and go from there. A sound and thorough idea.

 

I, for one, have been harping since before the season even began that this next off season, not then, and not at the trade deadline this season, was the time to make some bold moves. My thinking was very simple: by the end of 2015, with the likes of Buxton and Sano healthy again and ready to hopefully make a move, with a number of prospects available to move up a level or two, reach the ML level or knock hard on the door, the Twins would be more flush with various options available from which to deal in a stronger position than they had enjoyed in years.

 

Anyway...what if the other kids won't play with the Twins? What if they don't want to trade, want to play...err...trade with someone else? What if they want twice as much for their player as the Twins feel they should give up?

 

I just keep wondering, could the Twins do as well, or be better off for next season, letting guys like Turner, and Garver and even Navarreto develop for a season, then see what the trade and FA options are the following year?

 

With a blend of mostly young veterans and even younger youngsters on the club next season, would it be smart to go the veteran catcher route for '16? Could there be someone out there to platoon with or surpass Zuke for next season that could have the trust of the staff, still produce a little at the plate in the bottom third of the order, provide some leadership and guidance, and give the team a little more time to shape the roster, find the perfect fit/deal?

 

AJ? A career triple slash of .282/.321/.745 and all numbers slightly bumped this year. Does he have one more solid year left to wòrk with KS and be a fiery teammate and pain in the azz to the opposition? Alex Avilla? LH, down year, under 30 with a solid career and OB and OPS. Get any Soto, a RH version ofAvilla but a little older. There are a couple more interesting options out there, but the point is made.

 

Do we shoot for that big SS move? The ACE pitcher? All while doing our darnedest to unload a contract or two for circus peanuts if possible. Are we making catcher our top priority? Or for 2016, is it more prudent to go the FA veteran option and concentrate roster attentions elsewhere?

[Thrylos]

The Twins do not need to turn any rocks.  The have a catcher with a career 118 OPS+ in the majors who (finally) is healthy, got 7 rehab games under his belt, and should be joining them ASAP as their starter. 

 

And Polanco should be their starting SS in 2016.

 

 

[jimmer]

We've played 120 games, Suzuki has started 91.  He hasn't been overused, unless you mean his performance hasn't warranted how much he has played, then I'd agree.

 

He wasn't overused last year either.

[jorgenswest]

The Twins OPS split at SS is 16th in the league. Basically they have received a near league average split at SS this year even when anchored down by Santana's poor performance.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2015&month=38&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=9,d

 

If they want to fix something they might consider looking for league average performance at C(27th), 1B(22nd) or RF(26th). Those are the positions where they can make the greatest gain without acquiring an elite talent at the position. They may have an in house solution in Vargas or a healthy Arcia.

[Mike Sixel]

14 of the catchers ahead of Suzuki were acquired by their team in the last eighteen months. It apparently isn't that hard to find a better catcher......note, that stat was posted by someone else last week....I have not verified it.

[howeda7]

Pinto is a not a viable every day catcher, IMO. They've never like his defense and he's probably one concussion away from never catching again. At most I see him in a bench roll in 2016 playing 3 days a week, 2 at DH in a platoon with Arcia and 1 at catcher.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Pinto is a not a viable every day catcher, IMO. They've never like his defense and he's probably one concussion away from never catching again. At most I see him in a bench roll in 2016 playing 3 days a week, 2 at DH in a platoon with Arcia and 1 at catcher.

If Pinto is not the #2 catcher for the Twins next season, there is no way he is on this ballclub next season. No way, no how. Saying that, I have not lost my faith in him - but he lost pretty much a full season. That is not to his advantage to say the least.

[Bark's Lounge]

I can see a trade fit with SF for Susac, depending on how they envision Posey's future. One of the pieces we would have to move would be one of our CF capable guys, with Hicks being the likely candidate. I am not sure I would be game for that. Angel Pagan is minced meat.

[Jham]

 

Pinto is a not a viable every day catcher, IMO. They've never like his defense and he's probably one concussion away from never catching again. At most I see him in a bench roll in 2016 playing 3 days a week, 2 at DH in a platoon with Arcia and 1 at catcher.

 

Yeah, I don't understand how posters can lambaste anyone who dares suggest that Mauer go back to catching, but they have no problem pushing Pinto back behind the plate (who can't really say no because he needs the money) and has had TWO concussions within a couple months.  Who's being put in danger again?  That being said, if Pinto is made aware of the dangers, and wants to roll the dice for the big bucks, it's his call.  

 

Similarly, if Mauer realizes he is playing himself out of first-ballot hall of fame status and wants to give it another shot behind the plate as he gets further and further from his last concussion, I would not stop him.  I have no idea if he ever would change his mind about it or not.  So I won't suggest it.  I won't plan for it.  I just wouldn't bet against it ever happening like some would.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Yeah, I don't understand how posters can lambaste anyone who dares suggest that Mauer go back to catching, but they have no problem pushing Pinto back behind the plate (who can't really say no because he needs the money) and has had TWO concussions within a couple months.  Who's being put in danger again?  That being said, if Pinto is made aware of the dangers, and wants to roll the dice for the big bucks, it's his call.  

 

Similarly, if Mauer realizes he is playing himself out of first-ballot hall of fame status and wants to give it another shot behind the plate as he gets further and further from his last concussion, I would not stop him.  I have no idea if he ever would change his mind about it or not.  So I won't suggest it.  I won't plan for it.  I just wouldn't bet against it ever happening like some would.

The Twins pulled the plug on Mauer's catching career with him reluctantly agreeing. There must have been some very concerning issues and medical data.

 

That could certainly be true with Pinto, but we don't hear too much about it. We were able to see the **** kicked out of Mauer for 10 years behind the plate. Pinto doesn't even have a year under his belt at the big league level and we don't know **** from shat of his past experiences.

 

If Pinto is in the kind of position Mauer was in, only bad people would want him to catch again.

[jimbo92107]

I hope the Twins call up Stuart Turner in September. I'd like to see a really good defensive catcher gun down a few base stealers. It's been a while. Even if the guy's bat is a wet noodle, I'd like to see a strong arm behind the plate.

[Rosterman]

Pinto not on the club next season? I would rather have him as the backup/bench bat that a Fryer, or even a Herrmann, as long as the understanding that the third (emergency) catcher is Mauer and not Escobar.

 

The Twins were blessed with Mauer. He was extraordinary behind the plate and with the bat. Most teams are happy if the catcher is a hitting stud and can keep the ball somewhat in front of them (Brian Harper comes to mind). Many teams are happy if the catcher calls a great game, throws out runners, frames pitches well, and is not a total liability (see Butera) at bat. You can live with A WEAKNESS i your lineup. 

 

Sadly, this year, the Twins have been in shambles behind-the-plate (both offensively and defense), at shortstop (same) and you can say before Sano they ahd no pop at DH, and the first abseman, with his driving in runs moments, is not the guy you want at first and batting third. Except he's making $20 million, is still an icon, and the rest of the team is batting worse than he is in this down year of batting averages.

 

I can live with a .230 hitting catcher if he brings the defense skill set. (Anyone remember the days of Jerry ZImmerman and Phil Roof). We can bring up a new guy, or fast track him, but the bigger skills of a catcher in the minors is being a take-charge guy and calling the game, really working on pitch framing, throwing out runners. We can call-in Steinbach to help these guys out at some level. Most get some instruction from Reed and Smith when they pass thru Elizabethton. But so many guys fail at catcher because IT IS A TOUGH POSITION. You can hang around (see Fryer, remember Corky Miller, how about Eli Whiteside and Henry Blanco ... even Drew Butera). Of course, few of them egt the ction needed to be considered a viable starter.

 

I would welcome A.J. back. I really would...if he truly wants to come back. He's not blocking anyone, unless we are stuck, again, with Suzuki. We need to let Pinto play behind-the-plate some, but doubtful that he will be the 80-90 game starter...ever. But I would welcome his bat on the bench if Sano is the DH and Vargas is another bench bat with Arcia as the 4th outfielder and probably Escobar (third catcher) as the backup guy for infielders.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't think it's wrong to wish Mauer back to catcher, but let's be realistic in that I doubt it happens.  It would most definitely solve a big problem for the Twins, as even Mauer's numbers right now wouldn't be out of line for a catcher, and if by chance it's related to that concussion he suffered, there's a chance he finds some sort of semblance of his old self.

 

That said, I don't see it happening.  I hope the Twins look hard at getting Susac or Pawlecki this offseason. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, those guys won't be cheap.  I doubt the Dodgers AAA guy is going to be cheap either, but yeah, I see your point.  The good news is that the Twins have some bullets to get things done right now. 

[big dog]

In case people forgot, last year base stealers in the majors went 20/20 against Pinto.  I'm pretty sure that problem needs to be fixed.

[jorgenswest]

In case people forgot, last year base stealers in the majors went 20/20 against Pinto. I'm pretty sure that problem needs to be fixed.

He does have a better record of throwing out runners in the minors than Fryer with both around 30%.

 

As Sam Deduno's personal catcher, his performance was very poor. It was an inexcusable decision on Gardenhire's part. There was no chance that pairing would be successful.

[stringer bell]

Anyone noticing that Suzuki has picked it up a notch? He's gotten quite a few key knocks in the last few weeks and the BA has creeped back to .241. I'm in favor of his workload being reduced by 20-30% (400 PAs) and it will take a better alternate than Herrmann or Fryer. Let's hope TR can land someone.

[Blackjack]

 

Anyone noticing that Suzuki has picked it up a notch? He's gotten quite a few key knocks in the last few weeks and the BA has creeped back to .241. I'm in favor of his workload being reduced by 20-30% (400 PAs) and it will take a better alternate than Herrmann or Fryer. Let's hope TR can land someone.

As i was reading thru this thread my thoughts were that the Twins like Suzuki, the pitchers like throwing to him, and that barring injury, he's going to be the starting catcher in 2016. Like it or not. Hopefully Turner or Garver play good enough to be the backup, with increased playing time thru the year, getting them ready to start in 2017. I don't see the Twins making a major trade for a catcher.

[Shane Wahl]

As of right now, Stuart Turner is not hitting AA pitching. It's possible that he actually won't do it either.

[HitInAPinch]

Does Manny Sanguillen have any grandkids running around that can catch?

[DocBauer]

I can't help myself, but I keep think about AJ. He's LH, still has pop, and has a career...including this season...of hitting and decent contact. And while he has a major pain in the azz reputation, that has generally been I regard to the team he plays against, not for. Generally. If we go the FA route, he's the guy that I keep thinking makes sense.

[Seth Stohs]

 

In case people forgot, last year base stealers in the majors went 20/20 against Pinto.  I'm pretty sure that problem needs to be fixed.

 

Throwing out would-be base stealers is a part, but a fairly small part of the defense of a catcher. Throwing out base runners is probably the least of baseball people's concerns about the defense of Josmil Pinto at catcher. 

[Twins7]

Here are the free agent catchers for 2016:

 

Alex Avila (29)

Chris Iannetta (33)

Dioner Navarro (32)

Brayan Pena (34)

A.J. Pierzynski (39)

Matt Wieters (30)

 

Wieters would be an obvious upgrade, but he'd be expensive and go for a long contract. Avila and iannetta would probably be upgrades, but would also go for a few years in their contracts... I sort of like having Suzuki for the short term, while we see what happens with pinto/turner. He won't win us any games, but he also won't lose us many. And, we don't really have an long term commitment to him, which would make it easier to transition to the young guys. I am intrigued by guys like Susac and plawecki, but they might be expensive gets. Unless we could pry one of them away with plouffe+hicks or Kepler or Rosario, allowing Sano to slide over to 3B, whoevers hotter of Vargas/Arcia at DH. We'd just need the acquired catcher to upgrade C offensively for it to make sense. Use positions of strength (3B/OF) to upgrade a position of weakness ©.

[ScrapTheNickname]

I've got add a Wilson Ramos comment. His OPS is .606, and last year it was .698. Not the offensive juggernaut Twins fans had thought we had frittered away.

 

(Suzuki's OPS is this regressed year is .613, so there you go.)

 

On defense, however, he is apparently quite good. E.g. his caught stealing rate is 40% over the last two years.

 

_______________

 

Maybe Wieters, because he's been injured the past two years, will take an inexpensive one-year deal to try get his game back before cashing in on a longer deal, and then, who knows, the Twins may land him. He turns 30 late next May.

[Thrylos]

 

As of right now, Stuart Turner is not hitting AA pitching. It's possible that he actually won't do it either.

Turner << Butera.

[stringer bell]

 

I've got add a Wilson Ramos comment. His OPS is .606, and last year it was .698. Not the offensive juggernaut Twins fans had thought we had frittered away.

 

(Suzuki's OPS is this regressed year is .613, so there you go.)

 

On defense, however, he is apparently quite good. E.g. his caught stealing rate is 40% over the last two years.

 

_______________

 

Maybe Wieters, because he's been injured the past two years, will take an inexpensive one-year deal to try get his game back before cashing in on a longer deal, and then, who knows, the Twins may land him. He turns 30 late next May.

The caught stealing percentage for a catcher just isn't that important in today's game. I know Suzuki doesn't throw even average, but if he has improved as a pitch framer and calls a great game, that is good enough (oh, yeah, he's got to block low pitches too). My own feeling is that he is midrange in the functions I mentioned and still way below average throwing.

[nytwinsfan]

Even if the Twins don't go out and get a big name catcher or top 100 catching prospect this offseason (via a trade of Plouffe, and/or one of Hicks, Rosario, or Kepler), they could at least go out and trade for one or two of the many decent high-minors catching prospects who are among their teams' top 10 prospects. They would immediately become the top catching prospects in the Twins system. Everyone always talks about how important it is to draft the Best Player Available, and I generally completely agree with that sentiment, but the flip side of that is the front office has to make sure it is out there making prospect for prospect trades when necessary to keep our system balanced. And as much as I think Garver and Turner have some potential, Terry Ryan has just not done this at all with the Twins' catching prospects. I understand that catching prospects don't grow on trees, but if you have to give up a little extra value to keep the system balanced then that is fine as part of the cost of drafting BPA every year.

[Thrylos]

 

Even if the Twins don't go out and get a big name catcher or top 100 catching prospect this offseason (via a trade of Plouffe, and/or one of Hicks, Rosario, or Kepler), they could at least go out and trade for one or two of the many decent high-minors catching prospects who are among their teams' top 10 prospects. They would immediately become the top catching prospects in the Twins system. Everyone always talks about how important it is to draft the Best Player Available, and I generally completely agree with that sentiment, but the flip side of that is the front office has to make sure it is out there making prospect for prospect trades when necessary to keep our system balanced. And as much as I think Garver and Turner have some potential, Terry Ryan has just not done this at all with the Twins' catching prospects. I understand that catching prospects don't grow on trees, but if you have to give up a little extra value to keep the system balanced then that is fine as part of the cost of drafting BPA every year.

 

 

Prospects, prospects, prospects...

 

Not sure whether you watched the Yankees series, but they had 3-4 kids that were popping 97 mph.  And that was one of "the bottom farm systems" based on the pundits.  The Twins' was "a top farm system". 

 

Where have all the top prospects gone? 

 

Another reason that hoping that prospects will one day be amazing and keep hording them does not pay... Get top young controllable MLB talent for top "prospects" pays.

 

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

The caught stealing percentage for a catcher just isn't that important in today's game. I know Suzuki doesn't throw even average, but if he has improved as a pitch framer and calls a great game, that is good enough (oh, yeah, he's got to block low pitches too). My own feeling is that he is midrange in the functions I mentioned and still way below average throwing.

As far as dWAR goes the last two years Suzuki has rated +.04 and +.05, while Wieters has rated -.01 and .02. By that calculation Suzuki is a much better defensive catcher which is surprising to me. But wouldn't you take a chance on Wieters over Suzuki as a hitter who might come at a reasonable rate for 2016?

[nytwinsfan]

Prospects, prospects, prospects...

 

Not sure whether you watched the Yankees series, but they had 3-4 kids that were popping 97 mph.  And that was one of "the bottom farm systems" based on the pundits.  The Twins' was "a top farm system". 

 

Where have all the top prospects gone? 

 

Another reason that hoping that prospects will one day be amazing and keep hording them does not pay... Get top young controllable MLB talent for top "prospects" pays.

So because the Yankees have some good young pitchers who were not previously recognized as top prospects, it doesn't make sense to acquire good prospects??? I'm failing to see the logical progression there. I'm all for getting top young, controllable talent for prospects, but when has that been available? And no, Jonathan Lucroy does not count as young controllable talent, being 29 years old, having only two years of control left, and coming off his by far worst year.