Mackey: The Deterioration of the Twins

[Seth Stohs]

1500 ESPN's Phil Mackey wrote an in-depth article on the deterioration of the Twins. He provides several areas os accountability for the struggles, players, manager, scouting ,and more. Check it out and discuss. 

 

 

 

What has prevented the Twins from selling out stadiums - literally and figuratively?

The following is an in-depth look at why the Twins have fallen into a historic stretch of futility based on conversations with more than a dozen people inside the organization across all levels, including several players. An inability to field enough talent (pitching), multiple personnel mistakes, and a player culture that has deteriorated in the wake of key players leaving the organization all play key roles in the decline.

 

[The Wise One]

Mackey almost lost me on a former member of the Beatles still sell out stadium shows 50 years later versus a glam rock guy now doing the rural casino tours.

The fire to play has to come from within the player. A bad manager can take away that fire (Bobby Valentine in Boston) A good manager can feed the fire, but the spark always has to come from the player.  The desire to win does not show up on the stat sheet. It is not a skill that Sabr can measure. The desire to do the work to maximize the skills has to come from the player to go above and beyond the coach.  Ryan has not added a fire to the team. The caveat is they are also hard to find. A player to walk the walk and talk the talk. That will set the culture of the clubhouse.

[Platoon]

So Ryan is effectively going about restocking the cupboards? And Gardy can't win with the players he has? So now what? He did ask the most pertinent question about Gardys future? Is he the guy for the next wave? IMHO, not really. I don't mean he can't manage, he just doesn't seem like the young team type of guy. He is far more comfortable with a team of stable do it yourself veterans. The exact opposite of what hopefully is coming soon. And his hands off approach to managing drives me bonkers. If you don't want a Santanna to bunt the other night, tell him not to bunt. Don't burn him later at the presser. Peer pressure is great, but the bottom line is he is the manager. Hicks was either late or he wasn't. If he is late, lighten his wallet. Sit him for 3 days. Players respect discipline that is fairly and consistently applied. A managers decisions on when to change a pitcher, bunt, steal etc, are subjective. They are neither right or wrong, except in the eyes of the beholder. Gardy should not be let go because of those types of field decisions. But he should be let go because of his inability to adjust to a players strengths, a continuing decline in team performance every year, and his hands off approach to in the game decisions. Would a different manager have reversed the record of this years team. Not on your life. But would a different manager have lessened the loss total, headed the team forward, and reversed the listless performances seen in the last half of the last four seasons? Therein lies the answer.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I disagree with Mackey in that I think this lies solely at the feet of the coaching staff. Their job (like many in management) is to motivate. I think with all the rookies coming up, a good drill seargent would likely be something that woudl benefit them until they get established and can start managing that aspect of the culture on their own. Hicks is a real good example here as I think his teammates would have dealt with that so that Gardy didn't have to... The problem is I dont' think there's that person to take care of it in this current clubhouse...

 

Also, I think coaches tend to outlive their usefullness. They don't necessarily become bad coaches, but when they've been established for a while, that voice tends to get ignored. I think an overhaul of the staff shoudl fix a lot of that.

[The Wise One]

I disagree with Mackey in that I think this lies solely at the feet of the coaching staff. Their job (like many in management) is to motivate. I think with all the rookies coming up, a good drill seargent would likely be something that woudl benefit them until they get established and can start managing that aspect of the culture on their own. Hicks is a real good example here as I think his teammates would have dealt with that so that Gardy didn't have to... The problem is I dont' think there's that person to take care of it in this current clubhouse...

 

Also, I think coaches tend to outlive their usefullness. They don't necessarily become bad coaches, but when they've been established for a while, that voice tends to get ignored. I think an overhaul of the staff shoudl fix a lot of that.

If you to have an external motivator to perform at a high level, you are not going to do as well as someone with internal motivation. Rarely should a coach/manager have to do the motivating.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Yeesh.  Depressing to read the last four seasons in summary like that. This year's team has not been as hard to watch as the two before it, but losing is never fun to watch, no matter how promising the future may be.

 

I think next year will also be bad, hopefully the Twins will not lose 90 games, but I don't see them being dramatically better next year unless they make wholesale changes.  

[Blackjack]

The problem isn't Gardy - he's proven that he’s a capable manager - or lack of team chemistry - that will develop over time, the problem is the lack of talent. How many players on this team are above average major league players?? Hughes, Perkins, Dozier, Mauer.  You're not going to win without a few superstars surrounded by at least average players.

That list of first round draft picks is very revealing.  They failed on a bunch of them – why?  Now that the Twins are failing and getting higher picks, they’re doing better at picking but as far as I can tell, the same people are still around doing the drafting. That’s where the house cleaning should be done. What happens when the Twins get better, the picks get lower, will they still have the same luck?

[Mike Sixel]

so, blackjack, your argument is that Gardy doesn't matter? He has no responsibility when the team is bad, but somehow helps good players play better? I'm not sure it should work that way. His job is to make the team better, to make strategic and tactical decisions, and to manage the clubhouse......how many years has it been since they did the little things well? 

[Boom Boom]

so, blackjack, your argument is that Gardy doesn't matter? He has no responsibility when the team is bad, but somehow helps good players play better? I'm not sure it should work that way. His job is to make the team better, to make strategic and tactical decisions, and to manage the clubhouse......how many years has it been since they did the little things well? 

 

We heard for years that Gardenhire "got the most out of the least" or whatever... the implication being that mediocre players played better under his management.  What I think is becoming clear is that it was less about Gardenhire coaching them up and much more about those players' talent levels being drastically underrated.  The team seemed to play up the image of the cute little upstart Twins, when in reality they were a solid professional team who mostly deserved to be there.

 

I don't think Gardenhire has forgotten how to manage... I just think his ability to manage was always overrated because he used to have good players.

[Platoon]

The problem isn't Gardy - he's proven that he’s a capable manager - or lack of team chemistry - that will develop over time, the problem is the lack of talent. How many players on this team are above average major league players?? Hughes, Perkins, Dozier, Mauer.  You're not going to win without a few superstars surrounded by at least average players.

 

That list of first round draft picks is very revealing.  They failed on a bunch of them – why?  Now that the Twins are failing and getting higher picks, they’re doing better at picking but as far as I can tell, the same people are still around doing the drafting. That’s where the house cleaning should be done. What happens when the Twins get better, the picks get lower, will they still have the same luck?

Are they better at picking, or picking earlier.... Think the latter. I am no apologist for the twins, but there is a reason the draft is inverse to standings. Therefore, everyone has their ups and downs. Good management keeps the ups longer and the downs shorter. Therein lies the difference.

[stringer bell]

The "losing culture" stuff is the hardest to pin down.  I do believe becoming a perennial loser makes turnover necessary.  As couple comments have come out about Mauer being the only player who hit in the Metrodome, and since the Twins had only one good season (the first) at Target Field, we can infer that most of the players have seen nothing but 90-loss season for the Twins. I have no doubt that the young Hispanic players have changed things a bit in the clubhouse, but having another veteran beyond Mauer who has been a winner would be a good idea.  I think also that it is time for a new manager with at least a couple new coaches.   

 

More talent is coming, but they will have growing pains.  I really believe the Twins can have a winning record next year, but it will take a revamped pitching staff and a new manager.

[Platoon]

To see an example of losing culture, look to the Detroit Lions of the Bud Grant era. They knew they were going to lose to the Vikings. And did. The Twins seem to have an inferiority complex... Which actually dates to their years in the playoffs.... I cannot say for a fact this lies soley with Gardy, but if it's a merely coincidence, it's also merely consistent! Some teams win more than they should, some teams lose more than they should. Which category do the Twins fall into?

[Thrylos]

I think that Mackey's article kinda misses the point, because it does not take the next logical step.  Inability of field management to win and inability of the general management to both put a winning product on the field and hold the field management accountable for loosing is a symptom.  That is not where the "Bad culture" starts.

 

I think that the root cause of the problem is that on the top of the Twins' management structure, they have someone who is focused more on the "experience" than baseball.  Clearly, winning baseball games has become a secondary consideration.  I'd love to see a press conference from the Twins' president outlining what the Twins will do to win 90 again, instead of what are the next food and beer offerings at Target Field and who will be performing in the summer concert that will fill the ballpark ($) but will rip apart the outfield grass. 

 

The Twins got their new ballpark, the All Star game and all that jazz.  About time they get a baseball man to run the show and focus every single person in the organization towards their core business: winning baseball games.  Unless this happens, I seriously doubt that thing will change.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Reading articles like Mackey's here, it's truly difficult to tell if Mackey is using fresh Ryan quotes or is pulling quotes from prior seasons, because Ryan has almost literally been saying the same thing for going on 2-3 years now.

 

One word Ryan did use was the "e" word -- Ryan said he was making an emotional decision concerning the starting pitching. I'm trying to read the tea leaves, so maybe that means he will not be offering Anderson another contract.

[USAFChief]

There are lots of reasons the Twins are already at least a year overdue for a manager change...but the biggest is the losing culture that has crept like a cancer into the bones of the organization.

 

Also...I reject the notion that just because someone was right for a job 10 years ago, they are still right for the job today.

 

This org needs a shakeup. Talent alone won't do it, since it will enter in grips and drabs over time and simply conform to the losing culture in place.

[drjim]

There are lots of reasons the Twins are already at least a year overdue for a manager change...but the biggest is the losing culture that has crept like a cancer into the bones of the organization.

 

Also...I reject the notion that just because someone was right for a job 10 years ago, they are still right for the job today.

 

This org needs a shakeup. Talent alone won't do it, since it will enter in grips and drabs over time and simply conform to the losing culture in place.

 

Despite the results I wouldn't necessarily call it is a losing culture, this leadership team has had good success in the past and I don't think they became more incompetent. But I would absolutely call it a stale culture. There needs to be some sort of infusion of energy and new ideas/approach. There is a reason that leadership turns over in all aspects of the world. Even good, competent leaders run out their string in a place. And 13 years is a great run.

[USAFChief]

Despite the results I wouldn't necessarily call it is a losing culture, this leadership team has had good success in the past and I don't think they became more incompetent. But I would absolutely call it a stale culture. There needs to be some sort of infusion of energy and new ideas/approach. There is a reason that leadership turns over in all aspects of the world. Even good, competent leaders run out their string in a place. And 13 years is a great run.

Do you think anyone in the organization expects to win? Players, front office...manager? Fans? Media?

 

Losing culture.

[drjim]

Do you think anyone in the organization expects to win? Players, front office...manager? Fans? Media?

 

Losing culture.

 

Bad talent.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Bad talent.

Losing culture.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Despite the results I wouldn't necessarily call it is a losing culture, this leadership team has had good success in the past and I don't think they became more incompetent. But I would absolutely call it a stale culture. There needs to be some sort of infusion of energy and new ideas/approach. There is a reason that leadership turns over in all aspects of the world. Even good, competent leaders run out their string in a place. And 13 years is a great run.

Exactly. Even Joe Torre and the Yankees parted ways. When did coaching change become controversial? It's telling to me that Gardy doesn't seem to recognize the very thing you said here, that he's had a good run and it's time for him and both sides to move on.

[TheLeviathan]

Time to move on from Gardy doesn't necessarily mean "Gardy is the problem".  It's just time to move on.  

[Winston Smith]

Mackey said:

 

 "The accountability lies somewhere."

 

So where?  Everyone keeps their jobs? Maybe a scapegoat or two but nearly everyone will keep the nice pay checks coming. We'll hear all the excuses, like the last couple falls, as to why it's really no ones fault.

 

My guess is that Molitor will not come back and maybe one of but not both Ullger or Vavra will be gone and Andy stays.

[Blackjack]

so, blackjack, your argument is that Gardy doesn't matter? He has no responsibility when the team is bad, but somehow helps good players play better? I'm not sure it should work that way. His job is to make the team better, to make strategic and tactical decisions, and to manage the clubhouse......how many years has it been since they did the little things well? 

 

I didn't say Gardy doesn't matter, I said lack of talent was the problem. No manager in MLB history would be able to win with the starting pitching that he has had the last few years.

[adjacent]

Bad talent.

And I would say bad horrible talent, on one side of the equation (pitching). The Twins have score enough runs. But no team can survive with the worst rotation in baseball for years in a row (I know, they addressed that last offseason, but apart from Hughes (and maybe Gibson) it didn't work. Basides, there is a relationship between a losing atmosfere and bad pitching. It is hard for the players to keep it up when they know the pitchers are going to blow up almost every time.Now, why the pitching is so bad? Has the ptching coaches have to do something about it? Maybe is time to find out with new coaches.

[Siehbiscuit]

If you to have an external motivator to perform at a high level, you are not going to do as well as someone with internal motivation. Rarely should a coach/manager have to do the motivating.

 

 

I don't completely agree. I am a coach/sales manager of a sales department at work. I will agree that finding the natural "go-getters" are great, because they do have their own inner drive. It doesn't mean they don't need their "buttons" pushed as well.

 

Those that need the "external" motivation, in my experience, just haven't found their "inner" motivation yet. That is my job. To help them find the drive to push forward. Maybe Gardy has found that with Hicks after the latest (my back hurts, but not so bad to be getting treatment) episode. He has produced lately.

 

I think what you are saying is self-motivated people tend to do better and over the LONG term that does tend to be the case. Those that aren't self-motivated often just haven't found it yet. Its the coach's job to help them.

 

Keep in mind, not everyone has the same motivations. Some play for the love of the game and others want the big payday (often chill later; see Albert Haynesworth). Point is this is why "make-up" is such an important trait. It's the one trait that is common in the all-time greats vs those that flame out.

[Brandon]

Lets look at this situation from a more realistic expectation situation.  The Twins have had 4 loosing seasons since there last winning season.  They may have 5.  I'll bet anyone here we have a winning season within 6. compare to the Pirates going from 1992 to 2013 before having a winning season or the Royals going 29 seasons from playoff appearance to playoff appearance.   Management as a whole is fine and fairly efficient.  There are some teams better at winning and building year in and year out.  But were not in bad hands. 

[Shane Wahl]

Bill Smith did do a lot to ruin this team, but the current state still falls on Ron Gardenhire. I do not understand how he gets *any* support. He and Anderson have run this team into the ground. Gardy didn't like Hardy. Anderson (and maybe Gardy) didn't like Liriano. Gardy didn't like Gomez. Etc. etc. How is there no accountability for this? There are players who are going to say great things about the manager. That benefits them in the short-term.

 

The thing that Gardenhire did well during the playoff years was manage the bullpen. He was fantastic at utilizing Hawkins, Rincon, etc. He also had Johan Santana and others who led the Twins to successful years in weak AL Central times. The Twins were, ultimately, the Toronto Blue Jays, but in the AL Central.

How a fresh start with a new manager and pitching coach isn't necessary is completely beyond my ability to understand the world. This was true last year. Now it is blatantly true.

 

[Kwak]

Bad talent.

Some of that "bad talent" is in the Front Office (they scouted and signed those players) and some of it is in the dugout. The rest is in "the panelled corner offices".

[beckmt]

Agree with some of the above, but some is internal motivation and some is having buttons pushed.  Some of the rest is people handling skills. Being told one thing and then doing it to be thrown under the bus to the media is other.  Pitching has been bad, but not getting as much as you can out of it and having a few guys who were supposed to be upper end succeed very well elsewhere is another.  Andy has to go for this organization to have any credibility for holding people accountable.  Bill Smith did not do a good job, but listened to Gardy more than he should have and was not capable of making his own evalutions.  That was a major reason the Twins are were they are today.  But Gardy got off free for pushing Smith to make the wrong moves.  I know Bill Smith should have known better, but there is a lack of accountability here. 

[Shane Wahl]

Also, I am a fan of Bruno and Molitor. I was a fan of Steinbach, but this whole Pinto thing and Fryer nonsense has me really wondering. I would be happy keeping the first two, making Dougie the manager, and finding another pitching coach and bench coach.