Gammons: Morneau placed on waivers

[Mave]

Will he be claimed? As we have established, most likely.

But that doesn't necessarily mean he is a goner. Given he is pretty darn hot right now, that adds negotiating power and hopefully a better return for Morneau.

If TR and the brass aren't happy with what they are offering, then pull him back off waivers!

[PseudoSABR]

I think if Morny was full of himself, he wouldn't have been a gracious as he was during the HR derby a few years back when they interviewed the runner up before him and then when they did interview him, they called him by the wrong first name...Jason, I believe it was. He was all about giving Hamilton the glory. Players full of themselves would have raised a rukkus.

People can be both gracious and narcissistic, as I said I think Morneausy has demonstrated plenty of good will and isn't phoney at all. That said, I remember Justin's wry smile during that interview, and as you say, pretty classy.

[jokin]

Right. I'm trying to think of any benefit from waiting until he was hot to put him on waivers, but I really can't. Is his contract really that big of a factor (both in terms of his likelihood of being claimed and ownerships desire to move him)? It makes me worry that if he is traded, it will be all about the money.

 

We're really at the point now when the only shock and surprise is that people are shocked and surprised that this organization isn't:

 

1) all about the money first, and,

2) actively engaged in improving the club 24/7/365.

[Badsmerf]

Like has already been pointed out, the fact Terry Ryan waited this long to put him on waivers is really unacceptable. One has to have some forethought to pull off good moves. This gives me little confidence that Terry Ryan is going to build a winner this time around.

[TheLeviathan]

Clearly the whole Hunter/Morneau fight was orchestrated so someone could punch Punto in the face.

[cmathewson]

Right. I'm trying to think of any benefit from waiting until he was hot to put him on waivers, but I really can't. Is his contract really that big of a factor (both in terms of his likelihood of being claimed and ownerships desire to move him)? It makes me worry that if he is traded, it will be all about the money.

 

How about waiting until he actually had some trade value after a seven-homer barrage?

[PseudoSABR]

I've thought about it some more and I think I know what the Twins were thinking about waiting to put Justin on waivers. We've been assuming that Justin would pass through waivers. I'm guessing the Twins didn't want to take the chance that he'd get claimed while he was producing so poorly. (Say the Yankees or Rangers may have been willing to claim despite his contract, just to take the chance on his production).

[Badsmerf]

How about waiting until he actually had some trade value after a seven-homer barrage?

The point is to clear waivers and not get claimed. Putting him on waivers now is the absolute worst timing possible (considering his homer binge). That is why it is a blunder. He clears waivers in early August and Terry Ryan would be negotiating trades right now instead of praying he doesn't get claimed.

[Badsmerf]

I've thought about it some more and I think I know what the Twins were thinking about waiting to put Justin on waivers. We've been assuming that Justin would pass through waivers. I'm guessing the Twins didn't want to take the chance that he'd get claimed while he was producing so poorly. (Say the Yankees or Rangers may have been willing to claim despite his contract, just to take the chance on his production).

Possible. He was completely terrible in July though, so there wasn't much saying he was going to hit 7 homers in 2 weeks.

[Mave]

The point is to clear waivers and not get claimed. Putting him on waivers now is the absolute worst timing possible (considering his homer binge). That is why it is a blunder. He clears waivers in early August and Terry Ryan would be negotiating trades right now instead of praying he doesn't get claimed.

 

Again... work out a better deal now that he is hitting significantly better! If they don't like what is being offered withing the 48-hour negotiating period with the claiming team, then pull him back off waivers!!!!!! (sorry for yelling...)

 

There really is no harm in putting a player on Major League waivers. As it has been mentioned, this happens all of the time, with pretty much all players.

 

My question is-- I thought this waiver process, and who was put on waivers was supposed to be a secret process, with no information allowed to be disclosed unless if something is finalized. Is that still technically (but not practically with the current state of 24-hour media/insiders) the rule? Can anyone help me out here?

[Riverbrian]

My inherent response to this "news" is: Duh. What else were you expecting?

 

Now if it included the name of a team that claimed him, then it's actually news. I'm with Oldgoat, though, I'd love to see him get a ring somewhere.

 

This post will be deleted... Kind of pointless to delete this post after copying it in my response but the post will be deleted nonetheless as a matter of policy.

 

Not everyone who reads Twins Daily understands the waiver process so "Duh" is completely unnecessary. Some of us understand that your understanding of the process is at an elite level. Try to understand the varying degrees of knowledge and be respectful.

[Winston Smith]

"....positive for resigning him to a "hometown discount" after the season." Would this be the same hometown discount that Mauer took?

[SweetOne69]

Again... work out a better deal now that he is hitting significantly better! If they don't like what is being offered withing the 48-hour negotiating period with the claiming team, then pull him back off waivers!!!!!! (sorry for yelling...)

 

There really is no harm in putting a player on Major League waivers. As it has been mentioned, this happens all of the time, with pretty much all players.

 

My question is-- I thought this waiver process, and who was put on waivers was supposed to be a secret process, with no information allowed to be disclosed unless if something is finalized. Is that still technically (but not practically with the current state of 24-hour media/insiders) the rule? Can anyone help me out here?

 

You are missing a major point.

 

If a player clears waivers then you can talk to all teams to work out a trade. But if a player is claimed, then you can only negotiate with the team that claimed him. You have more bargaining power after a player clears waivers.

 

While it is true that if you can't work out a deal you can pull the player back. But you can only do that once. If try to put him through waivers is irrevocable and you have Zero bargaining power if he is claimed again.

 

The only time that you hope a player gets claimed is when that player has a really bad contract and it is a total salary dump (think Alex Rios with the White Sox a couple of years back).

[drjim]

You are missing a major point.

 

If a player clears waivers then you can talk to all teams to work out a trade. But if a player is claimed, then you can only negotiate with the team that claimed him. You have more bargaining power after a player clears waivers.

 

While it is true that if you can't work out a deal you can pull the player back. But you can only do that once. If try to put him through waivers is irrevocable and you have Zero bargaining power if he is claimed again.

 

The only time that you hope a player gets claimed is when that player has a really bad contract and it is a total salary dump (think Alex Rios with the

White Sox a couple of years back).

 

There is an easy counter. If the Twins put him on waivers Aug 1 and a team (ie Yankees) may claim him and refuse to give anything other than salary relief. Then the Twins have no way to receive compensation. At least now there is a little leverage.

[cmb0252]

I'm just not as sentimental as everyone around here I guess. Trade him for what you can get and move on.

[SweetOne69]

There is an easy counter. If the Twins put him on waivers Aug 1 and a team (ie Yankees) may claim him and refuse to give anything other than salary relief. Then the Twins have no way to receive compensation. At least now there is a little leverage.

 

While your point is valid, can you name one instance where a team claimed a player that was performing poorly and has been for a while?

 

I can just hear a GM saying: "This guy hasn't done much all year and has done nothing for the last month, but I think he will turn it around and all I will have to do is take on the remaining $5M of his salary to get him."

 

It wouldn't take to many of those gambles for that GM to find himself unemployed.

[Mave]

You are missing a major point.

 

If a player clears waivers then you can talk to all teams to work out a trade. But if a player is claimed, then you can only negotiate with the team that claimed him. You have more bargaining power after a player clears waivers.

 

While it is true that if you can't work out a deal you can pull the player back. But you can only do that once. If try to put him through waivers is irrevocable and you have Zero bargaining power if he is claimed again.

 

The only time that you hope a player gets claimed is when that player has a really bad contract and it is a total salary dump (think Alex Rios with the White Sox a couple of years back).

 

Thank you, irrevocable waivers is a good point to be brought up. I guess I didn't go far enough with my point.

 

If the Twins don't like what they are being offered from the claiming team in that 48 hour window, then pull him back and just don't worry about it. Keep him around. In the short term, you still have a fan-favorite on your team (hopefully keeping more of the casual fans in the stands than if you just dump him for nothing), who is hitting the ball well now. It is a short-sighted move, but I really don't think it is a bad one. Try to resign him to a reasonable deal over the next year or two and reassess when the cavalry arrives from FTM and NB.

[stringer bell]

I guess I see this a little differently. First of all, no one is going to claim Morneau for sport, because the Twins can simply accept the claim and the claiming club owes the balance of his salary. That is more than $3M for a quarter of the season. From my point of view, if the Twins unload Morneau's salary, clear a roster spot and nothing else they break even. If they get a player with some chance someday of being a contributor, that is even better. If they get greedy and want a top prospect (or bust) then they end up with Morneau til the end of the season.

[Kwak]

Also, I consider it a pretty massive gaff on Ryan's part that Justin didn't already make it through waivers. No one would have claimed him in the first few days of August. Now, it's a very different story. Even some of the crappier teams might claim him just for the hell of it.

 

The point of waiving a man is for him to be claimed. It was clever on Ryan's part to wait the two weeks, in order to allow teams to satisfy themselves that they were "in it" and make a claim for Morneau. The delay also reduces their cost. With respect to which team claims Justin--that is irrelevant to the Twins.

 

If Morneau is claimed, I fully expect a straight cash deal--they pay the rest of Morneau's salary for 2013 and the Twins get a reduced payroll.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The point of waiving a man is for him to be claimed. It was clever on Ryan's part to wait the two weeks, in order to allow teams to satisfy themselves that they were "in it" and make a claim for Morneau. The delay also reduces their cost. With respect to which team claims Justin--that is irrelevant to the Twins.

 

If Morneau is claimed, I fully expect a straight cash deal--they pay the rest of Morneau's salary for 2013 and the Twins get a reduced payroll.

 

Why do they want a player to be claimed? It's much easier to trade a player that has cleared waivers, as you can now trade that player to any team.

[nicksaviking]

The point of waiving a man is for him to be claimed. It was clever on Ryan's part to wait the two weeks, in order to allow teams to satisfy themselves that they were "in it" and make a claim for Morneau. The delay also reduces their cost. With respect to which team claims Justin--that is irrelevant to the Twins.

 

If Morneau is claimed, I fully expect a straight cash deal--they pay the rest of Morneau's salary for 2013 and the Twins get a reduced payroll.

 

The point of waivers is to give the worst teams a chance at possible useful players other teams are casting off. But that's only an effort for reasonable compitition at the MLB level. Waivers is not helpful to sellers at this time of year. To maximize the value, you don't want anyone to claim him so you are free to negotiate with everyone. I don't see any way that waiting to put Morneau on waivers until he gets hot is any kind of advantage for the Twins. As Brock said, it was an oversight. He possibly would have cleared waivers if placed immediately. The Twins could have then waited to trade him when/if he got hot.

 

Edit: I think you may be under the impression that if a player clears waivers, he must be traded immediately. He does not, the Twins can place their whole team on waivers August 1 and wait to trade any that clear at their leisure.

[James]

The point of waivers is to give the worst teams a chance at possible useful players other teams are casting off. But that's only an effort for reasonable compitition at the MLB level. Waivers is not helpful to sellers at this time of year. To maximize the value, you don't want anyone to claim him so you are free to negotiate with everyone. I don't see any way that waiting to put Morneau on waivers until he gets hot is any kind of advantage for the Twins. As Brock said, it was an oversight. He possibly would have cleared waivers if placed immediately. The Twins could have then waited to trade him when/if he got hot.

 

Edit: I think you may be under the impression that if a player clears waivers, he must be traded immediately. He does not, the Twins can place their whole team on waivers August 1 and wait to trade any that clear at their leisure.

There's also a chance that a team like the Yankees might claim him so a team like the Orioles or Rays couldn't. Even if they knew that they didn't actually want him. I don't think GM used to claim players to block other teams from getting them, but I think it's something that definitely happens now.

 

I'm not 100% which was the best option really. There was solid logic to put him on waivers on Aug 1st, and there was solid logic to wait and see if he heats up to maximize the return.

 

My guess is that he's claimed by a non-contender, and we're not offered a whole lot. My preference would be that he makes it all the way to the Dodgers, because Ned Colletti seems to enjoy overpaying for players.

[Kwak]

The point of waivers is to give the worst teams a chance at possible useful players other teams are casting off. But that's only an effort for reasonable compitition at the MLB level. Waivers is not helpful to sellers at this time of year. To maximize the value, you don't want anyone to claim him so you are free to negotiate with everyone. I don't see any way that waiting to put Morneau on waivers until he gets hot is any kind of advantage for the Twins. As Brock said, it was an oversight. He possibly would have cleared waivers if placed immediately. The Twins could have then waited to trade him when/if he got hot.

 

Edit: I think you may be under the impression that if a player clears waivers, he must be traded immediately. He does not, the Twins can place their whole team on waivers August 1 and wait to trade any that clear at their leisure.

 

I am aware a cleared player doesn't have to be traded--at all! My belief is that the Twins wish to cut ties with Morneau even if all they receive is cost reduction. By changing teams, it also permits the Twins to make an offer for a free-agent Morneau substantially below his present salary and it also breaks the chain of 5 and 10 for future trade considerations.

[AROG]

There is a lot to the waiver process, not just what immediately comes to mind. There is a ton of strategy to consider. It is possible that a team like the Yankees were working on a deal that was close before the trade deadline but the Twins felt it wasn't good enough so a if the Twins put him on waivers right away that team would claim him and say "give us what we want, or give him too us, or keep him, your call." Giving them leverage on a player that wasn't worth as much then.

 

Also, since the trade rumors started, Justin hit terrible. So there is thought that having it die down and giving him peace about it could get him to straighten out his head, creating more value. If he passed through waivers unclaimed he would hear about it nonstop again until traded.

 

My point, there are so many strategies that come into place with these waivers it is almost impossible to criticize until we know what happened. Now with that being said, I love to speculate on what could happen and why it could have happened that way, so cheer-e-o.

 

P.S. - Everything we know about Hunter and Mourny leads to them being great teammates. It is very possible/probable that there scuff was a misunderstanding by two people from completely different worlds. Hunter is a prankster, loud, and happy-go-lucky, Justin is Canadian...

[Sssuperdave]

If this is an attempted salary dump, then it makes sense to me that you'd want him to be claimed, and that Ryan waited to put him on waivers until he got hot. Perhaps Ryan wanted to trade him in July but no team would accept his full contract - they would only trade if the Twins paid some. Now if a team places a claim on him, they have to be willing to eat his entire remaining salary.

 

Yes, if he clears waivers you can trade with anyone, but you're in the same spot you were in July with no one willing to eat his entire salary. Obviously this is entirely hypothetical - I have no idea what the market for Morneau was/is like.

[Major League Ready]

I read or heard somewhere they had substantial interst in Morneau and believed someone would be willing to give up something for him if he heated up in August. Had they put him up right away, they must have believed someone would have claimed him but they would have been correct to assume they still would not give up anything for him and the window is only 48 hours.

 

Now he has value. A non-contender certainly is not going to claim him. They are no going to pick-up his salary at this point. A contender could claim him and still offer nothing so one of the other contenders can't get him.

 

Obviously, it would have been ideal had he cleared waiver but the Twins obviously felt that was not going to happen even if they had done it immediately. Let's think about this situation. Do you think the whole FO overlooked putting Morneau on waivers and then suddenly realized they should put him up?

[raindog]

Also I have no desire to see Collabero or Parmelee at first base every day, I am pretty confident neither one is a full time major league first baseman, period.

I'm pretty confident that they both could be better than Morneau at this stage of his career. They need major league plate appearances so we can find out.

 

Morneau should be traded for anything we can get it return. If only to evaluate the younger guys. Terry Ryan got a decent prospect for freaking Butera. I'm sure he can get someone of value for Morneau.

[PseudoSABR]

I'm pretty confident that they both could be better than Morneau at this stage of his career.

I don't think that's a given at all.

[AlwaysinModeration]

I'm pretty confident that they both could be better than Morneau at this stage of his career. They need major league plate appearances so we can find out.

 

Morneau should be traded for anything we can get it return. If only to evaluate the younger guys. Terry Ryan got a decent prospect for freaking Butera. I'm sure he can get someone of value for Morneau.

Who?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I wonder if he has a potential partner lined up and waited until the waiver priority made it likely that this partner could claim him. I agree that it would be nice if he clears it, but there was enough interest that some one out there might want to snag him.