Blowing It Up: Twins Trade Carlos Correa Back to Houston Astros, to Save Money

[glunn]

1 hour ago, 1985Fan said:

You forget that TK managed in the Twins minor league system before making it to Ray Millers Twins staff. He basically advanced up the system with the core group of players that won the 87 WS; Hrbek, Gaetti, Brunansky, Viola, Bush, etc. He continued to work with players in the big leagues, Ask Morneau about how TK worked with him to learn first base, Plouffe talks about the drills TK ran to teach players different skills. So yes, TK strength was teaching and developing players, even at the big league level. Very different than hands-off Baldelli. 

 

I vastly prefer the TK way. I hate seeing poor fundamentals, and have seen too much of that under Rocco.

[Squirrel]

41 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Joel Sheehan claims Pohlad made this deal..... Not falvey. Is this real?

Wow, that would be … I would really want to know the story on that one

[h2oface]

Money? Twins gonna pay him another $33 million to get rid of him. Tell me again how good the cheat was…..  fans can go back to not being honest about who he is. 

[1985Fan]

Wondering who is going to come out of the BP in tomorrow’s game? There are six pitchers currently on the roster as BP arms. Sands, Topa, Funderburk, Tonkin, and Davis. Adams can be called up from St. Paul. Not an inspiring group….

[Bodie]

14 hours ago, laloesch said:

His vision maybe but his play was atrocious as a Twin.  He was non existent every season from April - May and August - September.  I'm relieved the Astros wanted him back so badly.  Carlos Correa was a double play machine and a momentum killer in the lineup for much of the past 2 seasons.

And yet, the case can be made that he has been the Twins' best everyday player since he signed! 

More an indictment of the Twins utter lack of overall star players than testimony to his greatness, but...

[Bodie]

5 hours ago, glunn said:

I vastly prefer the TK way. I hate seeing poor fundamentals, and have seen too much of that under Rocco.

I'll accept a fundamental mistake.  What grates on me is that there is no expectation on this team that you play professionally - you give an honest effort and improve yourself as a player.

I cannot think of a single Twins position player who after being called up has actually improved since since Jeffers came up and was told by Paul Molitor that he needed to vastly improve his defense to have any chance of sticking. Jeffers worked to improve,  learning from Kurt Suzuki (and rumors of Mauer whispering in his ear) to become playable behind the plate. 

Wow, just realized I have posted that the Twins haven't developed a major league regular in the entirety of Baldelli's tenure.  And I'll stand by that.  (Add in that the last sucess has regressed defensively so badly that he is worse than at the end of his 2nd season, so...)

That f**king stinks! 

[Eris]

“Correa, for his part, has done whatever he could to foster a winning atmosphere, and will continue to do so as he returns to the organization that took him first overall in 2012. “
 

The data below was posted in the TD general trade thread.  It is very interesting that the Twins had a better winning percentage in games that Correa did not play  The simplest conclusion is that whether or not Correa played was irrelevant to the the outcome of a Twins game.  This is a really surprising outcome given his reputation for building a positive clubhouse culture and being an onfield general manager.  It is also a position that no MLB player would like to be in  as a players role on the team becomes very expendable when his presence in the lineup makes no difference in the outcome  

It would be very interesting to see a deeper analysis of the factors behind these numbers, such as playing hurt or a decline in defensive range and performance

 

 

 

[Doctor Wu]

11 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

I do wonder if they will push Kaelen Culpepper, Walker Jenkins, and others.

I think gives them a golden opportunity to push some if not all of those players. Time for some promotions and trial by fire. 

[laloesch]

15 hours ago, mike8791 said:

Here's one long time suffering Twins fan who gives a big thumbs up for Falvey(something I rarely have done).  Here's why:

1. The Twins were toast this year.  With the team for sale, with the big 3 reduced to one,  with the injury to Lopez(last year Ryan's injury cost them a playoff berth), and failure of secondary starters like Larnach, Wallner, Julian, et.al. to step up, the Twins are a model of mediocrity.  And their record shows that.  Hence, the massive selloff!

2. Giving up on Correa accomplished several things: 1.) made a sale much more likely; 2.) opened up the SS position for younger guys like Lee. Culpepper to sink or swim; and 3) leads to a badly needed rebuild instead of retooling a club that has been in a state of decline.

3.  Trading Duran for two high prospects bolsters two positions of weakness - SP and C.  Sure, no guarantees but even if one of the former Phils becomes a regular, this is a big win going forward.

4. Improving our prospect list by trading Bader, (presumably Coulombe) and Paddack is positive in that it increases the odds that the ML lineup will be bolstered in years to come.  It's hard to say that about the Stewart trade but if the Twins can help Outman regain his rookie form, again, a big win.

Falvey could have sat on his hands this July, but he made some bold moves that give me more hope for a return to contention.  The likelihood is he won't be around for long, but no one can accuse him of being risk adverse.  I, for one, feel more hope for the future than I did several days ago.  That's a good thing, in my estimation!

I agree.  The current roster configuration was not working and Correa was a big part of that issue.  The guy might be a consummate professional, but let's be honest he was 0.1 war this season and his offensive production has been horrendous for LONG stretches and during those stretches the Twins would lose too many games.  Buxton was also like that until this season, but paying Correa as much as they were paying him was not practical for a team like the Twins.  But he's not the only one the offense was just horrendous the past 1-1/2 years and anemic before that.  I also kinda think they should have moved Pablo Lopez, but that might still happen in the offseason.  

[Hubie29]

11 hours ago, DJL44 said:

At least Varland was traded for prospects. I do not understand trading Stewart for Outman at all.

Giving Larnach and Wallner some competition.  (I will laugh at that myself)

[tony&rodney]

12 minutes ago, laloesch said:

I agree.  The current roster configuration was not working and Correa was a big part of that issue.  The guy might be a consummate professional, but let's be honest he was 0.1 war this season and his offensive production has been horrendous for LONG stretches and during those stretches the Twins would lose too many games.  Buxton was also like that until this season, but paying Correa as much as they were paying him was not practical for a team like the Twins.  But he's not the only one the offense was just horrendous the past 1-1/2 years and anemic before that.  I also kinda think they should have moved Pablo Lopez, but that might still happen in the offseason.  

The Twins hope they found a catcher .... in 3-4 years. The trades returned some promising pitchers, but it did not return any fast, defensively skilled, competent bats. None. They did add a couple guys who can DH. So the same problems remain: slow, poor defense, can't hit. But ..... now there isn't a bullpen. The rebuild will need to come when all of Lopez, Ryan, and Ober are traded with perhaps Buxton and Lewis included as well.

[Bodie]

15 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I fully expect the day to be capped by Houston rejecting Correa's medicals and Correa to be the Twins starting SS Friday night in Cleveland. 

 

 

"Worked" once, so....

[P Meyer]

13 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Putting words in my mouth. I never said that. I said they moved a bunch of dead money with Correa's trade. That deal had at least $75M of dead money and they only had to pay down $33M. They were looking forward to 2027 with Correa playing the Ty France role as a good fielding 1B who doesn't hit for power.

This is what you said...

"The Twins are a 4th place team. Paying Carlos Correa a bunch of money to play for a 4th place team has no value. The Twins were going to pay him $44M before they had a chance to be relevant again in 2027 (a completely sunk cost) and who knows if Correa will still be playable in 2027. The Astros were basically the only team who wanted him and they overpaid despite having leverage. It's actually amazing the Twins pulled this one off."

 

Paying Correa a bunch of money does have value because he is talented. If the goal was to be relevant in 2027 (as you said), you need to maintain or add to your overall roster talent. Getting rid of Correa, even if he is overpaid, only benefits 2027 if you take those savings and add more collective talent than Correa's individual talent. Maybe you think that will happen, idk, but I think that is a stretch. 

 

Saving money only benefits the Pohlads, not the product on the field today or in 2027.

[Bodie]

16 hours ago, karcherd said:

World Series Titles-TK-2  Rocco-0

October 27, 1991.

I celebrated my 21st birthday at the Metrodome watching a Jack Morris gem.  I had legal beer and a 2nd World Series title in 4 years. 

I later met the largest, drunkest scariest looking happy man in my life on Hennepain (sp?) Avenue.  His name was Kent Hrbek. 

[P Meyer]

9 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Joel Sheehan claims Pohlad made this deal..... Not falvey. Is this real?

My guess would be that Pohlad would need to sign off on any deal that required the Twins to pay money of an outgoing contract. I think that is the more realistic context along with Falvey getting a directive to get rid of payroll (expiring deals). that would explain packaging France with Varland. Also would explain the disappointing compensation back on some of these deals.

[DJL44]

5 minutes ago, P Meyer said:

getting a directive to get rid of payroll (expiring deals). that would explain packaging France with Varland. 

How so? France doesn't make any money. They will replace him with someone making league minimum and save a whopping $60,000 for the rest of the season. France was included because the Blue Jays wanted him.

[Bodie]

16 hours ago, S Bart said:

Well,,,,time will tell...let's see how he performs in Houston. If he fails to show productivity, it will prove that it was worth it. It is obvious that Correa wanted to move back to his home area of Houston. He could have blocked the trade if he wanted to stay in Minnesota. I don't disagree with your thought on them wanting to save money and reinvesting. It is despicable. My feelings center on the idea that he is aging and the production isn't there. Realistically. next season... hopefully, if they sell the team... will probably mean a new manager as well as new FO. That will be a building year. 2027 will probably be a strike season...so...I don't see the disadvantage of the trade....regardless of them saving money. Correa is simply not a difference maker due to his susceptibility to injury, age, and simply would not be a difference maker to making the playoffs.

Let's go back I time 48 hours...

The Twins were in a bad position. Incredibly inconsistent offense, bad defense and "good" pitching that netted bad results. The team construction was fundamentally flawed (how many DH first types do you need if you use you DH spot as a half-day off work for "regulars"?).

Time to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Separate the "problems" from the "solutions".

So where does that leave someone like Correa?  He costs too much for his performance, but isn't bad.  By all accounts he is a true professional in the clubhouse, but that leadership (or whatever you want to call "it") doesn't seem to be bringing anyone along the road to being a better ballplayer. He is being paid the part of a star, but playing as a margianly above average player, albeit at a premium position. 

So, solution or problem?

Well, I know he wasn't the solution. Not necessarily a problem (let alone the problem),  but definitely not the solution to this team's troubles.

[P Meyer]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

How so? France doesn't make any money. They will replace him with someone making league minimum and save a whopping $60,000 for the rest of the season. France was included because the Blue Jays wanted him.

Ok. The Blue Jays took him because he was cheap. The Twins got rid of him because (imo) Falvey was instructed to get rid of all expiring deals. On his own, France had zero value or trade interest. The only way Falvey was able to get rid of France was packaging him with another player that teams did want. Like haggling at the flea market. Will you take $5 less and include this coffee mug.

[S Bart]

2 hours ago, Bodie said:

Let's go back I time 48 hours...

The Twins were in a bad position. Incredibly inconsistent offense, bad defense and "good" pitching that netted bad results. The team construction was fundamentally flawed (how many DH first types do you need if you use you DH spot as a half-day off work for "regulars"?).

Time to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Separate the "problems" from the "solutions".

So where does that leave someone like Correa?  He costs too much for his performance, but isn't bad.  By all accounts he is a true professional in the clubhouse, but that leadership (or whatever you want to call "it") doesn't seem to be bringing anyone along the road to being a better ballplayer. He is being paid the part of a star, but playing as a margianly above average player, albeit at a premium position. 

So, solution or problem?

Well, I know he wasn't the solution. Not necessarily a problem (let alone the problem),  but definitely not the solution to this team's troubles.

I never found him to be a star nor was he a leader in the clubhouse, I also felt that he put on a false facade many times, Nevertheless, it is not his problem if he is overpaid. The ultimate problem is the owners. If your read the sportswriters' columns today, they confirm that they wanted to cut payroll and ordered Falvey to do it. The problems are also connected to the GM, and the manager. The lack of leadership by Falvey and Rocco led to the team's demise. Rocco's glaring removals of Castro and Jax at the end of the game on Wednesday was ridiculous. Inserting Jax on that night and Duran on a prior evening in games that had already been decided was simply ridiculous. Never forget that Target Field was largely paid for by the taxpayers. To me, there was a trust that the owners would due diligence to market and support a strong team.