What's better, short-term incompetence or long-term competence?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I was driving and thinking about this yesterday. What would you rather see:

1. The short-term incompetence to continue at such a level that it results in Baldelli being fired and Falvey being put on the hot seat.

2. A return to expectations, with the Twins playing at or just above .500 and fighting for a Wild Card spot in 2025.

I'm curious what people think about this. It's not an attempt to blast the manager or the front office, it's a legitimate question. With ownership in flux and the team playing just WRETCHED baseball for 60+ games, I'm not entirely sure where I land on this question.

[Mike Sixel]

2. It's always better to win, and they could get lucky. 

[chpettit19]

I treated the question as if being competitive meant both Rocco and Falvey were guaranteed to keep their jobs. I don't know if that's how it was meant, but I thought that made it a more difficult question. Still voted for option 2.

Give me a competitive summer of Twins baseball over this disaster every time. Now I watch the rest of the league and the Twins minor league affiliates (and a couple other minor league games here and there, too) so I get plenty of good baseball all summer anyways, but an entire season of this kind of Twins baseball is just awful. 

I also don't think the Twins being at or just about .500 should (would?) lock Rocco and Falvey into their jobs, either. So, it's possible, or at least should be, to have options 1 and 2. And if ownership does change then it's all on the table. Ideally, I'd take option 3. All of the above. But if I can only pick 1, I'll take competitive Twins baseball any time that's an option.

[jctwins]

I'd rather see a full blown dumpster fire and build from the ashes under new ownership. 

[The Great Hambino]

A) There's no guarantee that a mild run of success (a return to fringe contention) would prevent new owners from installing their own people in power

B) There's no guarantee that continued suckitude will result in changes, especially if the Pohlads remain in ownership.  It took 4 straight 90 loss seasons to can Gardy, though the GM position had its own issues over that stretch.

C) Winning baseball is more fun to watch than losing baseball

Ergo, I pick option 2.  

This is a different answer than what I think should happen.  An organizational reset is needed.  But I want to see them win anyway.   I was indoctrinated too young to not want to see them win

[Riverbrian]

The short answer. Games that matter in September is my minimum expectation every year. I don't know if that answers the question as it was phrased but I want to be in the playoffs. 

The question though... seemed to be phrased: Should the Twins just go to crap this season so Falvey and Baldelli are sent packing and the organization can begin new. 

In that regard. To be honest and this will probably cause some sharp disagreement with others but so be it.  Ultimately... I don't want the GM and Manager lacking job security. I don't want their future dependent on Wins and losses. That may sound crazy to some but here is why. 

In order for a GM and Manager to do what is best for the organization long term... they can't be worried about the short term costing them their jobs. 

In other words... if Falvey and Zoll decide that a rebuild is in the best interest of the organization long term. I want them to be able to do it without worrying about the axe falling on them over the short term struggles that MIGHT come with that. I want the front office to feel secure enough to give a 26 man roster spot to a young controllable player with a future over a vet like Margot on a one year deal because it's best for the organization long term. 

I don't want Baldelli sacrificing long term because he feels like he must win or get tossed on the ex-manager scrap heap. I don't want Baldelli strip mining our young left handed hitters for parts because he needs to win now or lose his job.  

I want the front office and manager to have the job security to do what is best for the long term. If they do what is best for the organization long term... the short term will take care of itself. They can build an organization that will be bring me games that matter in September every year. 

Maybe just maybe... job security will provide them with the comfort to choose a controllable player with years to come in a Twins uniform over a vet on a cheaper one year contract that will not be back next year.    

[Craig Arko]

I’m beginning to doubt there is such a thing as long-term competence. 

[jctwins]

25 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

I’m beginning to doubt there is such a thing as long-term competence. 

Interesting point. Are the Rays a competent organization?

Consistently competitive, but unable to compete with the top tier anymore.

 

 

[Vanimal46]

 

Let it burn, baby! I’ll accept dreadful baseball if it means the organization will address deep rooted issues that have been holding them back for years. 

[Jocko87]

36 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

I’m beginning to doubt there is such a thing as long-term competence. 

There is, but it is exceeding rare for someone to get enough rope to prove it. In a baseball sense, maybe Bruce Bochy? Except he's got a losing career record.

There is almost no such thing as immediate long term competence.

Also, I reject the premise of the original question. The options presented are do not match the narrative and the assumption of incompetence requires knowledge not available.

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I treated the question as if being competitive meant both Rocco and Falvey were guaranteed to keep their jobs. I don't know if that's how it was meant, but I thought that made it a more difficult question. Still voted for option 2.

That was my intent, yes. If the Twins win, say, 85 games everybody keeps their job.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Jocko87 said:

Also, I reject the premise of the original question. The options presented are do not match the narrative and the assumption of incompetence requires knowledge not available.

When I refer to incompetence, I'm speaking of on-field play. I am passing no judgment on either the front office or coaching.

[Linus]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

The short answer. Games that matter in September is my minimum expectation every year. I don't know if that answers the question as it was phrased but I want to be in the playoffs. 

The question though... seemed to be phrased: Should the Twins just go to crap this season so Falvey and Baldelli are sent packing and the organization can begin new. 

In that regard. To be honest and this will probably cause some sharp disagreement with others but so be it.  Ultimately... I don't want the GM and Manager lacking job security. I don't want their future dependent on Wins and losses. That may sound crazy to some but here is why. 

In order for a GM and Manager to do what is best for the organization long term... they can't be worried about the short term costing them their jobs. 

In other words... if Falvey and Zoll decide that a rebuild is in the best interest of the organization long term. I want them to be able to do it without worrying about the axe falling on them over the short term struggles that MIGHT come with that. I want the front office to feel secure enough to give a 26 man roster spot to a young controllable player with a future over a vet like Margot on a one year deal because it's best for the organization long term. 

I don't want Baldelli sacrificing long term because he feels like he must win or get tossed on the ex-manager scrap heap. I don't want Baldelli strip mining our young left handed hitters for parts because he needs to win now or lose his job.  

I want the front office and manager to have the job security to do what is best for the long term. If they do what is best for the organization long term... the short term will take care of itself. They can build an organization that will be bring me games that matter in September every year. 

Maybe just maybe... job security will provide them with the comfort to choose a controllable player with years to come in a Twins uniform over a vet on a cheaper one year contract that will not be back next year.    

This is Falveys 9th season. Would you consider that sufficient job security?  To be clear I’m not being snarky as I think you bring up a good point. I feel he is quickly approaching the point where we can draw some firm conclusions about his org philosophies decision making acumen. 

[Linus]

To not answer the question I don’t think Falveys is going anywhere regardless of their record so long as the Pohlads own the team. 
 

Do I have confidence that his leadership will get us to sustainable success?  No I don’t. Being a really good POBO means making a lot of winning decisions. Falveys is decidedly meh in this regard - not horrible but certainly not above average. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Linus said:

This is Falveys 9th season. Would you consider that sufficient job security?  To be clear I’m not being snarky as I think you bring up a good point. I feel he is quickly approaching the point where we can draw some firm conclusions about his org philosophies decision making acumen. 

The median tenure is about 5.5 years so 9 Years would be sufficient in his line of work. 

Yes... we are quickly approaching the point. 

 

 

[USAFChief]

No.

[yeahyabetcha]

Really?? What kind of a fan wants their team to lose?

[jctwins]

2 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Really?? What kind of a fan wants their team to lose?

The kind that realizes some times you have to throw in the towel on a season to build for something better in future years.

[bean5302]

I'd like competitive play. Actually, I'd like to see the Twins win the World Series while Ty France wins the MVP and Bailey Ober wins a Cy Young, Rocco Baldelli wins Manager of the Year, and every single player I'm less bullish on has an amazing season to the point I look like an idiot based on my comments so far.

Hoping and wishing for the team to fail, and for guys to have miserable seasons so I can be "right" on the internet is messed up.

Ownership has proven they don't make decisions based on sound business strategy so I don't think there's really any amount of suck which would actually fix the underlying issues anyway.

[laloesch]

54 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Actually, I'd like to see the Twins win the World Series while Ty France wins the MVP and Bailey Ober wins a Cy Young, Rocco Baldelli wins Manager of the Year, and every single player I'm less bullish on has an amazing season to the point I look like an idiot based on my comments so far.

Irrelevant and not going to happen.

54 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Hoping and wishing for the team to fail, and for guys to have miserable seasons so I can be "right" on the internet is messed up.

That's not the question being asked in this thread and misconstruing the replies you are referring too.  From the replies I've read, most of the individuals are stating they'd rather see the team continue as it started the season in order to force front office change.  It's not "so i can be right on the internet."

54 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Ownership has proven they don't make decisions based on sound business strategy so I don't think there's really any amount of suck which would actually fix the underlying issues anyway.

That's an assumption.  It's easy for fans to get emotional and make broad statements based on those assumptions.  I do not claim to be a Twins organization insider nor am I fan of the Pohlads AT ALL, but I also don't pretend to know what their business strategies and internal plans are.  To say otherwise would be outright false.  I also think that if the team is bad enough, they WILL replace Rocco at some point if this continues, the question is when.    

Derek Falvey and Thad Levine fired Paul Molitor one year after Molitor was named American League Manager of the year in 2017 and just two days after he guided a group of players to a 28-28 finish (78-84 overall) in the final two months of the season.

The point is that they WILL fire a coach if things go badly enough and or that individual doesn't mesh with the front office's vision and how the players are managed.  Heck, Rocco might not even get 75 wins with this team given how badly they've played so far (and they should be doing A LOT better).  While a good chunk of the blame falls squarely on ownership for not going after key free agents or making some well-placed trades to strengthen the order, Rocco certainly deserves a significant portion of "in season" blame because of his boneheaded lineup and pitching decisions.  I've counted at least 5 games where one could argue he lost the game via poor managerial decisions.  That's impossible to ignore if this continues.  If the club losing in 2025 forces them to replace Rocco, so be it.  It's a win long term.      

 

 

 

[Vanimal46]

17 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Really?? What kind of a fan wants their team to lose?

At the micro daily level I root for a win. On the macro overall level, it’s pretty clear this isn’t a good running organization. These issues have popped up for the last 4 years in a row.

2022 September collapse because everyone got injured. 2023 was a really slow start until Wallner, Lewis, and Julien got red hot in August and September - just sneaking into the playoffs. 2024 epic collapse from mid August thru the rest of the season. Now again in 2025 a really slow start. 

I’m ready for wholesale changes so there’s hope in the future. As it stands now, this team is taking a nose dive in team performance and fan engagement. 

[bean5302]

30 minutes ago, laloesch said:

Irrelevant and not going to happen.

That's not the question being asked in this thread and misconstruing the replies you are referring too.  From the replies I've read, most of the individuals are stating they'd rather see the team continue as it started the season in order to force front office change.  It's not "so i can be right on the internet."

That's an assumption.  It's easy for fans to get emotional and make broad statements based on those assumptions.  I do not claim to be a Twins organization insider nor am I fan of the Pohlads AT ALL, but I also don't pretend to know what their business strategies and internal plans are.  To say otherwise would be outright false.  I also think that if the team is bad enough, they WILL replace Rocco at some point if this continues, the question is when.    

Derek Falvey and Thad Levine fired Paul Molitor one year after Molitor was named American League Manager of the year in 2017 and just two days after he guided a group of players to a 28-28 finish (78-84 overall) in the final two months of the season.

The point is that they WILL fire a coach if things go badly enough and or that individual doesn't mesh with the front office's vision and how the players are managed.  Heck, Rocco might not even get 75 wins with this team given how badly they've played so far (and they should be doing A LOT better).  While a good chunk of the blame falls squarely on ownership for not going after key free agents or making some well-placed trades to strengthen the order, Rocco certainly deserves a significant portion of "in season" blame because of his boneheaded lineup and pitching decisions.  I've counted at least 5 games where one could argue he lost the game via poor managerial decisions.  That's impossible to ignore if this continues.  If the club losing in 2025 forces them to replace Rocco, so be it.  It's a win long term.      

 

 

 

I didn't reference any previous post, and I didn't really read them because it's not relevant to how I feel. Just how I try to keep my personal outlook.

Derek Falvey fired Paul Molitor as soon as he possibly could. One of the conditions of his hiring was the Pohlad's required Falvey to keep Molitor as the manager for 2017. It's not like Falvey could fire Molitor after making the playoffs for the first time in 7 years and having Molitor win Manager of the Year. It would have been a really rough look.

I'm not sure what to expect out of the ownership group right now. If the Twins play this way all year (61-101) record, I'd say Falvey is just as at risk as Baldelli considering statements by ownership as recently as mid-2023. I'd like Rocco to be fired, and I think there's a very high degree chance he is fired during the course of this season, but Falvey will just put Rocco ver. 2.0 into the manager position. 

[TheLeviathan]

This team both feels too talented to be incompetent and not talented enough to be competitive.

I blame the pitching staff for the former and the stone-handed sloths that play the field for the latter.

Methinks we get a frustrating mix of both this year.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

This team both feels too talented to be incompetent and not talented enough to be competitive.

I blame the pitching staff for the former and the stone-handed sloths that play the field for the latter.

Methinks we get a frustrating mix of both this year.

Agreed. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 4/23/2025 at 10:56 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I was driving and thinking about this yesterday. What would you rather see:

1. The short-term incompetence to continue at such a level that it results in Baldelli being fired and Falvey being put on the hot seat.

2. A return to expectations, with the Twins playing at or just above .500 and fighting for a Wild Card spot in 2025.

I'm curious what people think about this. It's not an attempt to blast the manager or the front office, it's a legitimate question. With ownership in flux and the team playing just WRETCHED baseball for 60+ games, I'm not entirely sure where I land on this question.

A front office blow-up management change, followed by a sale of the team and another front office management change would super-suck.
 

If this team continues to play this badly, I can’t imagine Baldelli makes it to the All-Star Game and Falvey survives past the World Series.

if it’s just Baldelli being the sacrificial lamb, it wouldn’t really matter that much. I don’t think managers actually impact the in game outcomes that much.

[Parfigliano]

On 4/23/2025 at 10:50 AM, jctwins said:

I'd rather see a full blown dumpster fire and build from the ashes under new ownership. 

New owner.  FO gone.  Baldelli and staff gone.

[jctwins]

4 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

New owner.  FO gone.  Baldelli and staff gone.

This is the way.