Does an Injured Royce Lewis Lock Mickey Gasper Into the Twins' Opening Day Roster?

[arby58]

17 hours ago, Fatbat said:

All the injuries are related to brittleness brought on by the weight room lifestyle.  They feed off of each other. 

This 'brittleness' claim is nonsense. Perhaps the best physiques in any male sport are gymnasts - they are all extremely muscular, which is necessary because their routines require strength and bursts of activity that require fast twitch muscle mass. They are also extremely flexible - hardly the 'brittle' characterization you put on those who lift weights. 

[Craig Arko]

1 minute ago, arby58 said:

This 'brittleness' claim is nonsense. Perhaps the best physiques in any male sport are gymnasts - they are all extremely muscular, which is necessary because their routines require strength and bursts of activity that require fast twitch muscle mass. They are also extremely flexible - hardly the 'brittle' characterization you put on those who lift weights. 

And dancers. Think Hugh Jackman is ‘brittle?’

[Fatbat]

31 minutes ago, arby58 said:

This 'brittleness' claim is nonsense. Perhaps the best physiques in any male sport are gymnasts - they are all extremely muscular, which is necessary because their routines require strength and bursts of activity that require fast twitch muscle mass. They are also extremely flexible - hardly the 'brittle' characterization you put on those who lift weights. 

National Institute of Health disagrees with you. They have published sports injury data from studies for decades. The data is not hard to find or understand. 

[bean5302]

I think what's being manipulated when it comes to weight lifting is strength training vs. body building. Right now, there is a clearly stupid trend in MLB to add mass and muscle like a body builder rather than strength training.

Lifting weights as part of strength training helps stabilize joints with lean muscle helping taking up loads from tendons and ligaments, and proper techniques focus on long range of motion strength to improve range of motion which helps eliminate muscle pulls and strains. The focus is on increasing strength to spread loads without adding weight and size.

Body building adds a lot of weight which increases the load on joints, tendons and ligaments while limiting the range of motion due to bulk and techniques used. It increases risk of injury.

An NFL wide receiver might be 6'2" and 200lbs and run 32 ft/sec.
An NFL running back might be 5'10 and 200lbs and run 30 ft/sec.
An NFL linebacker might be 6'3" and 250lbs and run 27 ft/sec. <-- this is what baseball infielders are trying to be now.

Bulk/Weight = slow, injury prone.

[chpettit19]

11 hours ago, saviking said:

So, how do you explain why the ballplayers of yesteryear very seldom get hurt compared to the players of today, who lift weights and are constantly up and down? 

How do you explain the NFL? Or the NBA? 

[chpettit19]

35 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

I think what's being manipulated when it comes to weight lifting is strength training vs. body building. Right now, there is a clearly stupid trend in MLB to add mass and muscle like a body builder rather than strength training.

Lifting weights as part of strength training helps stabilize joints with lean muscle helping taking up loads from tendons and ligaments, and proper techniques focus on long range of motion strength to improve range of motion which helps eliminate muscle pulls and strains. The focus is on increasing strength to spread loads without adding weight and size.

Body building adds a lot of weight which increases the load on joints, tendons and ligaments while limiting the range of motion due to bulk and techniques used. It increases risk of injury.

An NFL wide receiver might be 6'2" and 200lbs and run 32 ft/sec.
An NFL running back might be 5'10 and 200lbs and run 30 ft/sec.
An NFL linebacker might be 6'3" and 250lbs and run 27 ft/sec. <-- this is what baseball infielders are trying to be now.

Bulk/Weight = slow, injury prone.

I think your assumption on how baseball players lift is incorrect. Even when I was in college in the early 2000s we were being trained to not lift to add bulk but to focus on range of motion strength. You think MLB teams aren't aware of this? 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

And dancers. Think Hugh Jackman is ‘brittle?’

My wife is always asking me "just what do you think you are trying to pull today".

I don't know why she always asks me that.

I assume it has something to do with age and hamstrings.   

[DJL44]

4 hours ago, saviking said:

So, how do you explain why the ballplayers of yesteryear very seldom get hurt compared to the players of today, who lift weights and are constantly up and down? 

Confirmation bias.

Steroids helped a lot of players recover faster from injury. Should we bring back steroids and HGH?

[arby58]

7 hours ago, Fatbat said:

National Institute of Health disagrees with you. They have published sports injury data from studies for decades. The data is not hard to find or understand. 

So explain it, don't just claim it. And link to it. You are making the claim, back it up.

I played sports through college, and there were plenty of Kinesiology professionals on the sidelines and in the training rooms - and certainly more in pro sports. They all said the claim of 'muscle bound' injury susceptible weight training, when done right (and you really think they aren't doing it right with athletes of this level) is a myth.

So bring on your research.

[arby58]

7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I think what's being manipulated when it comes to weight lifting is strength training vs. body building. Right now, there is a clearly stupid trend in MLB to add mass and muscle like a body builder rather than strength training.

This 'clearly stupid trend' is both not backed with evidence and makes no sense. Even when I was playing college sports, we had weight trainers with degrees in Kinesiology. You really think professional baseball teams don't know what you purport to know? 

[chpettit19]

6 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Confirmation bias.

Steroids helped a lot of players recover faster from injury. Should we bring back steroids and HGH?

Yes. The homerun races were awesome!

[Fatbat]

12 hours ago, arby58 said:

So explain it, don't just claim it. And link to it. You are making the claim, back it up.

I played sports through college, and there were plenty of Kinesiology professionals on the sidelines and in the training rooms - and certainly more in pro sports. They all said the claim of 'muscle bound' injury susceptible weight training, when done right (and you really think they aren't doing it right with athletes of this level) is a myth.

So bring on your research.

It’s not my research. It only took me a minute to find the info. Im not gonna hold your hand. I can out lazy you all day. 

[JD-TWINS]

On 3/18/2025 at 8:00 PM, Fatbat said:

Maybe 20% is injury related. 80% is from bulking up in the weight room. 

Their training staff can’t be that ignorant. Nobody is sitting in their office while Royce is squatting 500lbs on his own. If fans know muscle bull can be torn more easily than lean - well stretched muscle, pretty sure the training staff and players are aware. Players probably need to be monitored but after 2 major knee surgeries and 2-3 other long “games lost” stints, somebody is on Royce’s hip all day long in the training room.

Do we think the potential “best player” on the Team is just left alone to lift & lift until he likes what he sees?

[arby58]

1 hour ago, Fatbat said:

It’s not my research. It only took me a minute to find the info. Im not gonna hold your hand. I can out lazy you all day. 

In other words, you assert but don't prove. Got it. Lazy? Mirror mirror on the wall...

[Fatbat]

1 hour ago, arby58 said:

In other words, you assert but don't prove. Got it. Lazy? Mirror mirror on the wall...

I was simply passing along information thats been studied and published. I don’t care if you believe it or not. 

[RpR]

Who's the leader of the club
That's made for you and me?
M-I-C-K-E-Y G-A-S-P-E-R

[Verse 2]
Hey there, hi there, ho there
You're as welcome as can be
M-I-C-K-E-Y G-A-S-P-E-R

[Chorus]
Mickey Gasper! (Austin Martin)
Mickey Gasper! (Austin Martin)
Forever let us hold our banner high
High! High! High!

[Verse 3]
Come along and sing a song
And join the jamboree
M-I-C-K-E-Y G-A-S-P-E-R
 

 

 

[Fatbat]

2 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Their training staff can’t be that ignorant. Nobody is sitting in their office while Royce is squatting 500lbs on his own. If fans know muscle bull can be torn more easily than lean - well stretched muscle, pretty sure the training staff and players are aware. Players probably need to be monitored but after 2 major knee surgeries and 2-3 other long “games lost” stints, somebody is on Royce’s hip all day long in the training room.

Do we think the potential “best player” on the Team is just left alone to lift & lift until he likes what he sees?

You don’t think trainers bend the rules, look the other way or just flat out cheat things? The whole steroid era had absolutely nothing to do with trainers 🤡

[JD-TWINS]

19 hours ago, Fatbat said:

You don’t think trainers bend the rules, look the other way or just flat out cheat things? The whole steroid era had absolutely nothing to do with trainers 🤡

You think “they look the other way” so guys bulk up and get hurt & they get fired…….doesn’t seem very productive for their careers. These guys are fitness experts and have programs tailored for each guy - it’s not 1970 and they just hand out salt pills and Bengay and give massages…….diet - stretching - cryo treatments - hot & cold tubs - suction cups - deep massage. Why would a trainer turn his back on weight lifting that’s not productive? What’s the upside?

[Fatbat]

1 hour ago, JD-TWINS said:

You think “they look the other way” so guys bulk up and get hurt & they get fired…….doesn’t seem very productive for their careers. These guys are fitness experts and have programs tailored for each guy - it’s not 1970 and they just hand out salt pills and Bengay and give massages…….diet - stretching - cryo treatments - hot & cold tubs - suction cups - deep massage. Why would a trainer turn his back on weight lifting that’s not productive? What’s the upside?

Well lets consider that every human body and personality is different. For example, In the last 4 years, Royce and bulked up probably 35-40 lbs and supposedly changed his training over the last off season to be leaner/faster.  How would anyone not in his inner orbit have a clue what has and hasn’t worked for him. All we see is a non stop string of injuries. 
Now take that one example and expand it 30-40 years and how training methods have changed n an industry that barely existed in the 1970’s. 
No one in this forum is qualified to answer any questions about why so many soft tissue injuries happen. Thats why I read a couple well published studies.  I stand by my previous statements. 

[saviking]

On 3/19/2025 at 2:27 PM, chpettit19 said:

I think your assumption on how baseball players lift is incorrect. Even when I was in college in the early 2000s we were being trained to not lift to add bulk but to focus on range of motion strength. You think MLB teams aren't aware of this? 

Okay, then you explain why the current major league body always breaks down. 

Quote

 

 

[USAFChief]

23 hours ago, arby58 said:

In other words, you assert but don't prove. 

To be fair, that's also exactly what you've done. 

"Muscle bound is a myth."

[chpettit19]

26 minutes ago, saviking said:

Okay, then you explain why the current major league body always breaks down. 

 

Does it? Or do some of them? Like some of them did in the past, too?

Arms get hurt more now because max effort is used. Max velocity and spin is what drives elbows blowing up. It's been studied time and time again. MLB themselves studied it and are even trying to find ways to change rules to get teams to quit doing it.

But as far as guys like Royce pulling muscles, I'm going to need you to provide some evidence that it's happening more than it used to. 

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Fatbat said:

Well lets consider that every human body and personality is different. For example, In the last 4 years, Royce and bulked up probably 35-40 lbs and supposedly changed his training over the last off season to be leaner/faster.  How would anyone not in his inner orbit have a clue what has and hasn’t worked for him. All we see is a non stop string of injuries. 
Now take that one example and expand it 30-40 years and how training methods have changed n an industry that barely existed in the 1970’s. 
No one in this forum is qualified to answer any questions about why so many soft tissue injuries happen. Thats why I read a couple well published studies.  I stand by my previous statements. 

Well, @Lucas Seehafer PT is a trained professional on these forums. And he provided a number of responses in this thread about Lewis' injury. Including this one:

[Fatbat]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Well, @Lucas Seehafer PT is a trained professional on these forums. And he provided a number of responses in this thread about Lewis' injury. Including this one:

I missed that. Thanks for sharing it again. I can’t speak for other posts but “too strong” or “too much muscle” hasn’t been my issue.  Its the type of muscle development and that simply building muscle mass adds different issues. Lack of recovery, soft tissue brittleness,  over training syndrome…. Lots of ways to gain strength but it seems certain programs aren’t working for some athletes very well. 

[arby58]

9 hours ago, USAFChief said:

To be fair, that's also exactly what you've done. 

"Muscle bound is a myth."

[arby58]

On 3/20/2025 at 11:59 AM, Fatbat said:

I was simply passing along information thats been studied and published. I don’t care if you believe it or not. 

I'm pretty sure I know the research you are relying upon, and it is correlation, not causation-related. It also deals with injuries from poor technique in weight training, not weight training causing injuries in professional athletes.

Meanwhile, I have just actually provided a study that resistance training can reduce injuries in athletes. Go figure. 

[arby58]

10 hours ago, USAFChief said:

To be fair, that's also exactly what you've done. 

"Muscle bound is a myth."

While I have provided a study to dispute this, I would also note that I also provided an analytical rebuttal (gymnasts, who are very muscular and very flexible). For that matter, the same could be said about college wrestlers, who are all very muscular for their weight and have incredible flexibility. The classic Greek method for supporting an argument is ethos (appeal to authority), logos (appeal to logic), or pathos (appeal to belief). I've provided both an authoritative and a logical argument - so it isn't exactly what I have done.

[tony&rodney]

12 hours ago, Fatbat said:

No one in this forum is qualified to answer any questions about why so many soft tissue injuries happen.

I'm not picking on your thoughts or arguments, but merely responding to the specific sentence I quoted. Never a good idea to make vast assumptions. You may be correct but there may be more than a few experts that read Twins Daily. FWIW, I'm not an expert.

Sport specific weight training has been around for much more than a quarter century for every sport and for both genders. I can't believe people have such strong opinions on this topic.

The steroid era was created and promoted by media, management, and money and many players went along for the ride because they have short careers to make their cash and it was legal. In baseball it is called The Selig Era. 

Injuries happen .... they always did. Many more players were injured in my high school years in the 60s/70s than were ever injured during my decades of coaching. I credit the dedicated sports training personnel for their work. While I myself and many of my peers were abused in the name of toughness or "be a man", I can proudly say I never abused an athlete or put winning above an individual's health.

The trainers today are incredible well educated / outstanding and athletes prepare in ways they feel will be conducive to performance. Some players may over prepare, if that is a thing, but I believe it is done in an honest effort to be their best selves. Maybe a little empathy is all that we should have for an injured player instead of looking for blame. It's a bumper sticker: Sh*t Happens.

[saviking]

On 3/21/2025 at 10:11 AM, chpettit19 said:

Does it? Or do some of them? Like some of them did in the past, too?

Arms get hurt more now because max effort is used. Max velocity and spin is what drives elbows blowing up. It's been studied time and time again. MLB themselves studied it and are even trying to find ways to change rules to get teams to quit doing it.

But as far as guys like Royce pulling muscles, I'm going to need you to provide some evidence that it's happening more than it used to. 

There are no statistics you can find on this, but apparently, you didn't start watching the Twins in 1961 until now. Players very seldomly went up and down. The pitchers pitched until they got knocked out of the game, not because they were so fragile there was a pitch count. There were no in-depth training strategies to maximize strength and speed compared to today. Same with the football players of that era. Jim Marshal said he never lifted weights. They just exercised. 

My best guess is when they walked away at the end of the season; they left it all behind until training camp or spring training. This probably allowed their bodies to heal and rejuvenate. 

Players are bigger and stronger today but more fragile as well. Crazy dichotomy, don't you think? Do you have any statistics to prove me wrong.

 

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, saviking said:

There are no statistics you can find on this, but apparently, you didn't start watching the Twins in 1961 until now. Players very seldomly went up and down. The pitchers pitched until they got knocked out of the game, not because they were so fragile there was a pitch count. There were no in-depth training strategies to maximize strength and speed compared to today. Same with the football players of that era. Jim Marshal said he never lifted weights. They just exercised. 

My best guess is when they walked away at the end of the season; they left it all behind until training camp or spring training. This probably allowed their bodies to heal and rejuvenate. 

Players are bigger and stronger today but more fragile as well. Crazy dichotomy, don't you think? Do you have any statistics to prove me wrong.

 

My answer is the same. We know why arms get hurt more now. Max effort. On velocity and spin. It's not surprising that when you test the very limits of what the human body can do you break the human body. That doesn't make guys now "more fragile" it means they're doing things the guys back then couldn't do. That's the natural progression of the world. In order for me to beat you I have to be able to do more than you. And in order for the next guy to beat me they have to be able to do more than me. Well we're getting to the limits of what the body can physically handle. 

And, for the record, pitchers aren't used for shorter stints now because of pitch counts for arm health, but performance. Teams have figured out where starter's peak performance is and are trying to maximize that. Again, it's about getting the most max effort out of them. It's about the number of times they go through a lineup, not the number of pitches they throw. From there the teams are tracking far more advanced things than pitch counts. They're tracking spin, extension, arm angle, release points, etc. to determine when guys get tired. Not pitch counts. But that's a talk for another day.

As for gathering statistics to prove you wrong, it's a little difficult because the rules of baseball have changed. It used to be that you could only put a certain number of guys on the DL at a time and once you reached your limit you were just out of luck. So, looking at days lost to DL/IL trips or number of guys put on the DL/IL is misleading. The minimum amount of time needed to be spent on the list has also changed over time. Shrinking from 60, to 30, to 21, and splitting into multiple lists with the 15, 10, and 60 day DL/ILs. 

Every study that's been run on MLB injury rates that I can find states that it's inconclusive because of these changes. The injury rates show they're going up, but the rates of increase go up with each increase in team's abilities to use the DL/IL. Crazy dichotomy, don't you think?