Lineup of Twins Roster Hopefuls Beats Tigers, 4-0

[David HK]

My man DaShawn gets outta the gate as the early leader for the Sire title.  It's just criminal how this org. has treated some of the younger talent like him.  And now, he's not so young anymore.  He looks all the world like a real ballplayer.  Eeles, too- only seen glimpses of him here and there, but he also looks like a gamer.   

But hey, let's just sign some MLB re-treads, and just hand them Margot-level at bats.  

[miller761]

No way Gasper should make this team. Versatility only matters if you are a MLB player not a AAAA player.

[arby58]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Zero runs by the Tigers.

With a better defense the Tigers would have scored minus two runs. 

Rocco playing with fire. 

 

At the end of the spring training games, everybody's record will be 0-0. If you're going to be 'playing with fire' this is the time to do it.

[Riverbrian]

5 minutes ago, arby58 said:

At the end of the spring training games, everybody's record will be 0-0. If you're going to be 'playing with fire' this is the time to do it.

Ok... He's running with scissors. You should never do that. 

[arby58]

4 hours ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Sorry but no Keirsey will not make the team. He can't even earn a spot unlike Bader, France and Gasper. Miranda will have to earn playing time unlike Bader, France and Gasper.

Bader is going to make the 26 man roster, and my guess France will with even a halfway decent spring. I don't get all the dissension on France. His OPS+ in four MLB seasons prior to last year went 133, 128, 125, 101. Yes, last year was 92, but he also tried to play through a significant injury - even then his OPS was much higher than one of his purported contestants at IB, Julien, who put up an anemic 74.

I have no idea why you think Gasper is a shoo-in for the 26 man roster. This was a trade of cast-offs for both teams - my bet is he is just AAA depth.

[arby58]

2 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Ok... He's running with scissors. You should never do that. 

When I have scissors and need to get them somewhere in a hurry, I run with them all the time - never injured. You just have to know what you are doing.

[arby58]

4 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I still don't understand the rationale of forcing Martin at CF when he has to compete with Buxton & Bader for minority LHPs games. And Keirsey, who Baldelli has never considered to be on the active roster, should be the Twins' option at CF against majority RHPs games, has yet to play a game at CF. 

'23 Martin played mainly 2B, which is his natural position. '24 Baldelli needed an extra RH bat in the OF & didn't want Julien to have competition at 2B. So Martin was off to the OF, '25 Lee & Julien are Baldelli's choice at 2B. Although Lee is a solid fielder, neither can hit. Both should be sent down to AAA to get their hitting back & Julien should learn how to play 1B there, not in spring training. Martin should settle in at 2B & Castro as Utility. Miranda should get the most time at 1B. To keep Miranda healthy, he should be kept off 3B, but there he was at 3B already. Then they complain he can't stay healthy? France should have less time at 1B & more time at DH.

Good games & good to watch them.

Julien had a really bad 2024, but he had a really good 2023 (839 OPS in MLB). Martin had a really bad 2024 - and not a really good 2023 (.779 OPS at three minor league levels). So why the vitriol toward Julien and not Martin? 

[Mike Sixel]

Why Martin played SS in the minors is still mind bugling. Utterly. 

[Riverbrian]

28 minutes ago, arby58 said:

When I have scissors and need to get somewhere in a hurry, I do it all the time - never injured. You just have to know what you are doing.

Well yeah if you use them for balance. Like your walking on a wire. 

[arby58]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

Well yeah if you use them for balance. Like your walking on a wire. 

I'm a trained professional - so is Rocco.

[arby58]

It's pretty common for teams to not take (m)any regulars on spring training road trips. It's between 4 and 5 hours of accumulated time on a bus - not the way most players want to spend (non-productive) work time. So, I wouldn't read anything into the starting lineup for this game.

[RpR]

41 minutes ago, arby58 said:

Julien had a really bad 2024, but he had a really good 2023 (839 OPS in MLB). Martin had a really bad 2024 - and not a really good 2023 (.779 OPS at three minor league levels). So why the vitriol toward Julien and not Martin? 

Julien - iron glove.

[USAFChief]

20 minutes ago, arby58 said:

It's pretty common for teams to not take (m)any regulars on spring training road trips. It's between 4 and 5 hours of accumulated time on a bus - not the way most players want to spend (non-productive) work time. So, I wouldn't read anything into the starting lineup for this game.

I think 99 percent of the posters at TD understand most regulars don't take many ST road trips.  MLB even had to make up a rule a few years back requiring teams to take at least "4 regulars from the previous season" onnroad trips. "Regulars" is pretty loose and teams stretch it even further, but the point is, teams don't ask many regulars to make trips.

That doesn't explain the deployment of the players that DID make the trip. 

[arby58]

51 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I think 99 percent of the posters at TD understand most regulars don't take many ST road trips.  MLB even had to make up a rule a few years back requiring teams to take at least "4 regulars from the previous season" onnroad trips. "Regulars" is pretty loose and teams stretch it even further, but the point is, teams don't ask many regulars to make trips.

That doesn't explain the deployment of the players that DID make the trip. 

It's spring training - none of the games count. Kick the tires on defensive alignments. Since 99 percent of the posters at TD understand this, it seems pretty self-explanatory.

[TwinsDr2021]

8 hours ago, arby58 said:

It's spring training - none of the games count. Kick the tires on defensive alignments. Since 99 percent of the posters at TD understand this, it seems pretty self-explanatory.

To me it seems like they have their mind made up on the 26 man and now are just seeing what they have and who can fill in here or there when there are injuries or even worthy of a 40 man spot. For example if Gasper can play anywhere but 1B for example, what good is it to keep him on the 40?

I am believe Austin Martin might be playing to just continue his career, because if he can't be adequate all over the diamond there really isn't much of a reason to have him around.

[Doctor Gast]

14 hours ago, arby58 said:

Julien had a really bad 2024, but he had a really good 2023 (839 OPS in MLB). Martin had a really bad 2024 - and not a really good 2023 (.779 OPS at three minor league levels). So why the vitriol toward Julien and not Martin? 

I'll be as brief as I can. I've been accused of hating Cave, Polanco, Gallo, Jeffers, Julien & others but I don't. I'm a fan of Julien, I like him to succeed & was quick to support him in the MiLB. But I'm against how management assesses their players in where they play them, who they elevate & who they put down, their weird analytic philosophy, their universal hitting philosophy they adopted from the Yanks. IMO, this hitting philosophy that has hurt & set back a lot of players like Sano. I'm glad that they have, after fully embracing & propagated to the public this hitting philosophy, they saw the fruit of their folly early & quickly changed philosophy & have implemented this change in spring training. Julien has embraced this philosophy, which paid dividends because the pitchers didn't know him, but now he is a victim of that philosophy. Martin has also been a victim of this philosophy, but he has quickly seen that it was hindering him. Both Martin & Julien have been victims of management's forcing them in positions that were above them & try to prop them up. Julien at 2B & Martin at SS & then CF. I don't only look at stats; I look at the underlying conditions. Julien has played primarily 2B professionally under the shift. So his adaptation to the bigs was easier playing an easier position that he played his entire career & he was platooned a lot against LHPs, where as Martin has played all over the field because he's a better defender, not getting settled in any of them. He played the majority of his last season before he was called up at 2B. If Martin was placed at 2B  & was platooned like Julien, IMO his stats would have been much better but he was forced into a very difficult position of CF at the MLB level to learn on the fly. So I give him a break.

I can see a path for Martin, he's a much better defender than Julien. He has great potential to be a traditional lead-off hitter, which the Twins desperately need. Julien is a liability at 2B. He will have to reinvent himself to stay at the MLB level & if he can do that, will he be able to hit with enough power to profile at 1B where he belongs? He needs to go to AAA to figure all these things out. Is Martin a sure thing? No,? he isn't, the way that they are using him, he probably won't. He's not even needed at CF, why play him there? Keirsey is needed there to sub against the majority of RHPs. Why play Julien at 2B where he doesn't belong? give them to Martin. Why give so much time at 1B to France, Gasper & Ford? Give them to Miranda who needs them. We need to keep Miranda healthy. Why are they so determined to jeopardize that when they have Lewis, Lee, Castro & others to play at 3B? 

I can see why you think that I'm vitriolic against a certain player but I'm not. I'm passionate to see the Twins become better & have a chance to go the World Series. I cheer against no Twin player. I'm a realist & I don't buy all this positive & negative hype that's put out in social media. 

[shimrod]

14 hours ago, USAFChief said:

They almost all played positions where they are being tested, or where the team hopes they won’t have to play"

 

How on God's green earth does tbis make any sense?

It's weird, isn't it? Bottom line, defense is a bastard stepchild for the Twins.

The emphasis on defensive versatility makes it difficult for any player to master their position. Meanwhile, via platoon, the team tries to field a roster of offensive situational specialists. 

If it were me, I'd reverse that. Put your core players at a defensive position and leave them there (this needs to begin in the high minors) to master their craft. Stop the platoons.

Mentally, defense impacts offense and vice versa. How much better would the Twins young players hit if they were 100% comfortable in the field? 

[Major League Ready]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why Martin played SS in the minors is still mind bugling. Utterly. 

Not really.  His bat / arm does not profile as a corner OFer especially given he is a mediocre even as a corner OFer.  He is below average defensively as a CF defender which would be OK if he was elite offensively which he is not.  He does not have the arm for 3B.  Bat does not profile as a 1B.  That leaves SS and 2B and how many failed SSs end up at 2B.  It's not hard to imagine why they tried to elevate his value by developing him into an everyday SS.  The fallback is he can provide value as a utility guy even if that value is through trade because with any luck at all there won't be a place on this roster next year for Martin unless of course he steps it up a notch offensively and is able to take a Castro type of role minus 2B.

[arby58]

25 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Both Martin & Julien have been victims of management's forcing them in positions that were above them & try to prop them up. Julien at 2B & Martin at SS & then CF. I don't only look at stats; Martin has played all over the field because he's a better defender, not getting settled in any of them. He played the majority of his last season before he was called up at 2B. If Martin was placed at 2B  & was platooned like Julien, IMO his stats would have been much better but he was forced into a very difficult position of CF at the MLB level to learn on the fly. So I give him a break.

The assertion that the Twins have played Martin 'out of position' is odd, because they started out playing him pretty much the way other teams have played him going all the way back to college.

At Vanderbilt, Martin played all over - 3B 64 games, CF 25, 1B 22, LF 15, 2B 13, C (really!) 2, SS 2. He didn't even play 2B his first year there.

At Toronto's AA team,. he played SS in 27 games and CF in 26 - never at 2B.  When he was traded to the Twins, the first year at Wichita, the Twins replicated his use by Toronto, playing 20 games in CF and 16 at shortstop.

The next year at AA, the Twins mostly played him at SS (72) and 7 times both at 2B and CF, with 2 other games in the outfield.

The following year, at various levels including AAA, the Twins gravitated to him playing 2B - 39 games, versus 12 in CF and 14 in LF.

So, really, it is the Twins that have identified him at 2B, and others that moved him around more. This isn't your narrative.

[arby58]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why Martin played SS in the minors is still mind bugling. Utterly. 

As I've posted elsewhere, this started with Toronto, where he played SS 27 games and CF 26 games for their AA franchise, and the Twins mostly repeated that the remainder of that year and doubled down the next year. However, they didn't play him there at all in the minors in 2023, so I suspect they learned their lesson.

[Jeff K]

I would like the Twins to bring the best players North.  Unless Julien or Lee hit well, they should both start in the minors.  I think Castro should play the most at 2nd.  I get some of his value as a utility player, but I think he, and the Twins, would benefit from less flexibility and more stability.

 

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, arby58 said:

The assertion that the Twins have played Martin 'out of position' is odd, because they started out playing him pretty much the way other teams have played him going all the way back to college.

At Vanderbilt, Martin played all over - 3B 64 games, CF 25, 1B 22, LF 15, 2B 13, C (really!) 2, SS 2. He didn't even play 2B his first year there.

At Toronto's AA team,. he played SS in 27 games and CF in 26 - never at 2B.  When he was traded to the Twins, the first year at Wichita, the Twins replicated his use by Toronto, playing 20 games in CF and 16 at shortstop.

The next year at AA, the Twins mostly played him at SS (72) and 7 times both at 2B and CF, with 2 other games in the outfield.

The following year, at various levels including AAA, the Twins gravitated to him playing 2B - 39 games, versus 12 in CF and 14 in LF.

So, really, it is the Twins that have identified him at 2B, and others that moved him around more. This isn't your narrative.

Many athletic guys are moved around depending on the need of the team they don't care about the player. Many times to the detriment to the players. My main point is that he's been moved around, which you agreed on, & not able to settle in any position. I mentioned in that post that Martin played mainly 2B just before he came up from AAA (that you left off your quote) so I credit them to be able see that Martin should be at 2B. But what good is it playing Martin at 2B in MiLB but rarely at the MLB level. Though rarely played there, there is where he scored the highest.  I'll repeat again CF is a very difficult position. You have to quarterback the OF, you don't have a Buxton out there covering for you, you are on your own. Kepler didn't want the extra distraction of playing there. Our top CF prospect, Celestino, whom many hoped to amount to something, couldn't handle it. How can you expect a non-CF rookie to perform as a competent CF veteran (there are many that aren't)? That is my point. & to give everyone context, my post was defending myself of vitriol against Julien which I assure you I don't have.

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Not really.  His bat / arm does not profile as a corner OFer especially given he is a mediocre even as a corner OFer.  He is below average defensively as a CF defender which would be OK if he was elite offensively which he is not.  He does not have the arm for 3B.  Bat does not profile as a 1B.  That leaves SS and 2B and how many failed SSs end up at 2B.  It's not hard to imagine why they tried to elevate his value by developing him into an everyday SS.  The fallback is he can provide value as a utility guy even if that value is through trade because with any luck at all there won't be a place on this roster next year for Martin unless of course he steps it up a notch offensively and is able to take a Castro type of role minus 2B.

There was zero chance he was a SS. No arm for left field, but enough for SS?

[Major League Ready]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

There was zero chance he was a SS. No arm for left field, but enough for SS?

Good hands and a quick release can help make up for a very average arm at SS.  I would guess they hoped to improve his throwing mechanics which is not unusual, right?  You managed to ignore ever other point I made and cherry pick this one.  Do you disagree with the points I made for each position?   Where would you have played him?

[arby58]

10 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

How can you expect a non-CF rookie to perform as a competent CF veteran (there are many that aren't)? That is my point.

Except he wasn't a 'non-CF rookie.' Look at the numbers - he's played CF at each level since college and through the minor and major leagues. He may not be very good at it (the statistics with the Twins seem to bear that out), but it is not accurate to say he was not experienced at the position.

[Mike Sixel]

28 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Good hands and a quick release can help make up for a very average arm at SS.  I would guess they hoped to improve his throwing mechanics which is not unusual, right?  You managed to ignore ever other point I made and cherry pick this one.  Do you disagree with the points I made for each position?   Where would you have played him?

Lf, cf, 2b. Mostly 2b and LF. 

[AKTwinsFan]

I'm hopeful France will be as good as he was before injuries. He's got the skills, and at 1M can't complain. He's a grinder. 

[NYCTK]

36 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'll repeat again CF is a very difficult position. You have to quarterback the OF, you don't have a Buxton out there covering for you, you are on your own. Kepler didn't want the extra distraction of playing there. Our top CF prospect, Celestino, whom many hoped to amount to something, couldn't handle it. How can you expect a non-CF rookie to perform as a competent CF veteran (there are many that aren't)? That is my point.

Good players can pick it up just fine. It's baseball, not a foreign language. Just look at Jackson Merrill. Celestino didn't fail because he sucked in CF. He was pretty meh, but he failed because he couldn't hit.

Austin Martin, similarly, isn't some victim of being moved around and unable to settle into a position. He's failed to produce well enough to get very high at any position on the depth chart, so his only chance to play is as a utility guy. He hasn't earned the right to be the starting 2B any more than Julien, Lee, or everybody's favorite Eeles!

There's no evidence that Austin Martin will be able to hit significantly better than last season if he just got to stay at 2B, just warrantless desires. 

 

[Doctor Gast]

51 minutes ago, Jeff K said:

I would like the Twins to bring the best players North.  Unless Julien or Lee hit well, they should both start in the minors.  I think Castro should play the most at 2nd.  I get some of his value as a utility player, but I think he, and the Twins, would benefit from less flexibility and more stability.

 

I totally agree with you Jeff that Julien & Lee should be sent down & that it would benefit Castro have some stability. But where I disagree is that Twins would benefit more by his flexibility than him settled at 2B. Castro is an established super utility player which is very valuable. That said IMO he'd benefit from less time at CF & SS. Who could benefit the most from stability is Martin, he could thrive there.

[Parfigliano]

14 hours ago, arby58 said:

When I have scissors and need to get them somewhere in a hurry, I run with them all the time - never injured. You just have to know what you are doing.

It's a science.