Lineup of Twins Roster Hopefuls Beats Tigers, 4-0

[sweetmusicviola16]

58 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Many athletic guys are moved around depending on the need of the team they don't care about the player. Many times to the detriment to the players. My main point is that he's been moved around, which you agreed on, & not able to settle in any position. I mentioned in that post that Martin played mainly 2B just before he came up from AAA (that you left off your quote) so I credit them to be able see that Martin should be at 2B. But what good is it playing Martin at 2B in MiLB but rarely at the MLB level. Though rarely played there, there is where he scored the highest.  I'll repeat again CF is a very difficult position. You have to quarterback the OF, you don't have a Buxton out there covering for you, you are on your own. Kepler didn't want the extra distraction of playing there. Our top CF prospect, Celestino, whom many hoped to amount to something, couldn't handle it. How can you expect a non-CF rookie to perform as a competent CF veteran (there are many that aren't)? That is my point.

You are correct, some players need to be able to settle in to a position. I believe if Martin were able to do that very thing that he could be a solid ML player, for me that position would be 2B or LF. I remember back in the day players that were allowed this liberty. I'll name a couple from Twins past. Gaetti, Gagne and Viola. These guys took a lot of time and patience to develop into the players they would become. I give much credit to their Manager for doing this, mostly Billy Gardner. These three struggled at times. Stats said that they should not be at ML. But people that watched them day in and day out could see their futures. Many on here would discard them just as they would Martin. I saw something in Martin when he came up in April that was apparent in the players I just mentioned. I don't know if Martin will succeed like Gaetti, Viola and Gagne did, mostly because I don't think he will receive the same chance that they did. I also think some will applaud if he doesn't.  Just some of my thoughts and opinions.

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, arby58 said:

Except he wasn't a 'non-CF rookie.' Look at the numbers - he's played CF at each level since college and through the minor and major leagues. He may not be very good at it (the statistics with the Twins seem to bear that out), but it is not accurate to say he was not experienced at the position.

I didn't say that he didn't play CF, I distinctly said he played all over which includes stints at CF, as I stated before as the team needs. But that doesn't qualify him as a CF prospect. A CF prospect is someone they fix at CF & they groom them for that position. that is not Martin. Again I'll remind you that CF is a very difficult position & he hasn't been prepared to play there. & let me remind you that this started from defending myself from your claim that I had vitriol for Julien which I assured you I didn't.

[NYCTK]

42 minutes ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

You are correct, some players need to be able to settle in to a position. I believe if Martin were able to do that very thing that he could be a solid ML player, for me that position would be 2B or LF. I remember back in the day players that were allowed this liberty. I'll name a couple from Twins past. Gaetti, Gagne and Viola. These guys took a lot of time and patience to develop into the players they would become. I give much credit to their Manager for doing this, mostly Billy Gardner. These three struggled at times. Stats said that they should not be at ML. But people that watched them day in and day out could see their futures. Many on here would discard them just as they would Martin. I saw something in Martin when he came up in April that was apparent in the players I just mentioned. I don't know if Martin will succeed like Gaetti, Viola and Gagne did, mostly because I don't think he will receive the same chance that they did. I also think some will applaud if he doesn't.  Just some of my thoughts and opinions.

Career bWAR through age 25 season - 

Gaetti: 7.8

Gagne: 4.6

Viola: 5.4 

Martin: -1.0

While it's true that those players struggled a little bit when they first came up, it's not really comparable. They were all 21-22 years old, ages when they ARE still a bit green of thumb and growing as players, and in the cases of Gaetti and Gagne, they only struggled in initial cups of coffee, showing real value as soon as they received significant playing time.

Austin Martin was a 25 year old rookie, given significant playing time, and didn't excel at anything. There's no reason to believe he has any real upside. The only reason he's even in the majors is because of his resume as a 1st round draft pick and notable piece in a big trade.  

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

I don't know if Martin will succeed like Gaetti, Viola and Gagne did, mostly because I don't think he will receive the same chance that they did.

Gagne was in the majors at age 21, fulltime by age 23, Viola was in the majors at age 22 and got CY votes at age 24, Gaetti was in the majors at age 22 and fulltime by age 23, Martin is way closer to Kielty and Lew Ford then any of those three.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

I don't know if Martin will succeed like Gaetti, Viola and Gagne did, mostly because I don't think he will receive the same chance that they did.

Gagne was in the majors at age 21, fulltime by age 23, Viola was in the majors at age 22 and got CY votes at age 24, Gaetti was in the majors at age 22 and fulltime by age 23, Martin is way closer to Kielty, Lew Ford, Danny Valencia then any of those three.

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Lf, cf, 2b. Mostly 2b and LF. 

I think we might actually agree that he is a mediocre defender in any position and therefore more valuable if he can cover multiple positions off the bench.  You avoided the assertion he does not have the bat for LF.  Should they have played him there as a primary position?  When I have seen him live he actually looked pretty bad in LF.  He is a poor option in CF.  I agree with 2B but to disregard how many SSs have been converted to 2B is a convenient argument.   What percentage of players who start out in the minors end up at another position?  Where do most of the end up?  2B.

[Doctor Gast]

21 hours ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

You are correct, some players need to be able to settle in to a position. I believe if Martin were able to do that very thing that he could be a solid ML player, for me that position would be 2B or LF. I remember back in the day players that were allowed this liberty. I'll name a couple from Twins past. Gaetti, Gagne and Viola. These guys took a lot of time and patience to develop into the players they would become. I give much credit to their Manager for doing this, mostly Billy Gardner. These three struggled at times. Stats said that they should not be at ML. But people that watched them day in and day out could see their futures. Many on here would discard them just as they would Martin. I saw something in Martin when he came up in April that was apparent in the players I just mentioned. I don't know if Martin will succeed like Gaetti, Viola and Gagne did, mostly because I don't think he will receive the same chance that they did. I also think some will applaud if he doesn't.  Just some of my thoughts and opinions.

Things like character, heart or spunk are intangibles. Some fans reject anything that they can't fit into a formula by stats or age. They try to put intangibles into some formula, is ridiculous. Martin has the character, heart & spunk that these players possess. Don't let these guys get you down, keep up the good work.

[sweetmusicviola16]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

Things like character, heart or spunk are intangibles. Some fans reject anything that they can't fit into a formula by stats or age. They try to put intangibles into some formula, is ridiculous. Martin has the character, heart & spunk that these players possess. Don't let these guys get you down, keep up the good work.

Thanks Doctor. I will keep on keeping on. Everybody has their opinions. That's awesome. I have mine. But one thing I do that is different is in that I look at players as people. I don't look at them as stats on a spreadsheet. They are humans and each of us as humans have something inside that sets us apart from others. Yes stats are fun. But they only tell a portion of who a player is. So when I saw something in Martin in April it had nothing to do with stats. It was something you don't see come out in every player. Martin has an intangible that can't be measured by a stat. Not that I don't think he is capable of putting up some decent stats. I could care less that he was a first round pick. I could also be wrong in that he ever makes it in the ML, I'm wrong often. But I am not wrong in the spark that I saw in him that not every player possess's.

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Thanks Doctor. I will keep on keeping on. Everybody has their opinions. That's awesome. I have mine. But one thing I do that is different is in that I look at players as people. I don't look at them as stats on a spreadsheet. They are humans and each of us as humans have something inside that sets us apart from others. Yes stats are fun. But they only tell a portion of who a player is. So when I saw something in Martin in April it had nothing to do with stats. It was something you don't see come out in every player. Martin has an intangible that can't be measured by a stat. Not that I don't think he is capable of putting up some decent stats. I could care less that he was a first round pick. I could also be wrong in that he ever makes it in the ML, I'm wrong often. But I am not wrong in the spark that I saw in him that not every player possess's.

Well said! Many look at MLB as they do Fantasy Baseball. MLB is real people, full of intangibles & underlying conditions that stats can't simulate. To people who only look at stats, "Get real"

[Riverbrian]

6 hours ago, sweetmusicviola16 said:

Thanks Doctor. I will keep on keeping on. Everybody has their opinions. That's awesome. I have mine. But one thing I do that is different is in that I look at players as people. I don't look at them as stats on a spreadsheet. They are humans and each of us as humans have something inside that sets us apart from others. Yes stats are fun. But they only tell a portion of who a player is. So when I saw something in Martin in April it had nothing to do with stats. It was something you don't see come out in every player. Martin has an intangible that can't be measured by a stat. Not that I don't think he is capable of putting up some decent stats. I could care less that he was a first round pick. I could also be wrong in that he ever makes it in the ML, I'm wrong often. But I am not wrong in the spark that I saw in him that not every player possess's.

I love this post

I never want to lose sight of what you are saying. 

The majority of players from Aaron Judge to the 20th round pick in the last draft is putting the work in to make a dream come true.