Cardinals 3, Twins 2: Key Error Dooms Twins in 9th, Cardinals Take Series

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm annoyingly neutral on managers so this isn't a call for Rocco's head, but that Farmer pinch hitting decision was maybe the worst decision I've seen Rocco make. I have no idea what reasoning there was to bring him in there. You knew they had a righty ready and there was a 100% chance he was going to face a righty. Give me Wallner against a left 100/100 times over Farmer against a righty. Especially a cold Farmer just coming off the bench and a lefty that's clearly not on his game. That was an absolutely horrific decision.

That brings me to my "dead horse" complaint. It's absolute madness that they continue to roster 2 below replacement level players with the only intent to use them against 25% of the league in the box and play them as little as possible up the middle. Margot and Farmer should not be on this roster. This obsession with platooning and pinch hitting makes no sense. They had a combined 5 PAs today. All of them against righties. This strategy of maximizing your output against 25% of the league at the cost of hurting your output against 75% is nonsense! Especially for corner players!

This utterly predictable situation is going to kill them in the playoffs. Rostering them is on Falvine and being so utterly predictable in game is on Rocco. This is an organizational problem that they need to fix. I can't imagine what numbers they're looking at that make this strategy make sense. Guys who flat out can't hit 75% of the pitchers in the majors shouldn't be on contending rosters. Stop the madness!

Came here to type this... There is no reason for Farmer to be here. He'll survive, though, and Julien and Martin will go down when Lee and CC return. Ridiculous at this point. 

[cmoss84]

Don't want to talk about it. Took a gummy and grilling and all is right with the universe. 

[Parfigliano]

Im so old I remember when ya couldn't "gummy" and get over it.

"Gummy" equaled arrest and jail.  If caught with...

 

[USAFChief]

Just now, Parfigliano said:

Im so old I remember when ya couldn't "gummy" and get over it.

"Gummy" equaled arrest and jail.  If caught with...

 

I'm old enough to remember when there weren't "gummies." 

[specialiststeve]

Twins need to demote Julian and move on from him in the offseason. He just doesn't have major league defensive skills.. period. We have way too many options there to continue with the "experiment" while on the job. 

[USAFChief]

11 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

Don't want to talk about it. Took a gummy and grilling and all is right with the universe. 

Seems like if you're grilling you should really be burning one.

[cmoss84]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Seems like if you're grilling you should really be burning one.

I did that too 🫠

[RpR]

1 hour ago, Danchat said:

I won't defend the pinch-hitting nonsense, but are we really expecting Rocco to treat Julien like a reliever and pull him when he makes mistakes? Hasn't he been better fielding at 2B,

Not really.

[JD-TWINS]

4 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm annoyingly neutral on managers so this isn't a call for Rocco's head, but that Farmer pinch hitting decision was maybe the worst decision I've seen Rocco make. I have no idea what reasoning there was to bring him in there. You knew they had a righty ready and there was a 100% chance he was going to face a righty. Give me Wallner against a left 100/100 times over Farmer against a righty. Especially a cold Farmer just coming off the bench and a lefty that's clearly not on his game. That was an absolutely horrific decision.

That brings me to my "dead horse" complaint. It's absolute madness that they continue to roster 2 below replacement level players with the only intent to use them against 25% of the league in the box and play them as little as possible up the middle. Margot and Farmer should not be on this roster. This obsession with platooning and pinch hitting makes no sense. They had a combined 5 PAs today. All of them against righties. This strategy of maximizing your output against 25% of the league at the cost of hurting your output against 75% is nonsense! Especially for corner players!

This utterly predictable situation is going to kill them in the playoffs. Rostering them is on Falvine and being so utterly predictable in game is on Rocco. This is an organizational problem that they need to fix. I can't imagine what numbers they're looking at that make this strategy make sense. Guys who flat out can't hit 75% of the pitchers in the majors shouldn't be on contending rosters. Stop the madness!

They face Fried & Sale in 2 of next 3 games….probably not the best time to jettison the right handed hitters.

If Buxton & Correa were ready to go, as well as Lee, Farmer wouldn’t be around and there would need to be a decision between Martin & Margot. Until those guys are healthy nothing will change. Margot had to play today because Kepler is nicked up.

When guys are hurt lesser players fill in due to necessity.

Kepler-Larnach-Wallner-Castro-Buxton-Miranda-Correa-Lewis-Catcher

Catcher-Lee-Martin-Santana on bench v. RH starter

3 guys here are hurt so Margot-Farmer-Julien are currently rostered.

[Pat]

The big point is using Duran on Saturday with a 6 run lead in the 9th with other options available.   Back to back days don't seem to work very well for a number of the bullpen pitchers.

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

They face Fried & Sale in 2 of next 3 games….probably not the best time to jettison the right handed hitters.

If Buxton & Correa were ready to go, as well as Lee, Farmer wouldn’t be around and there would need to be a decision between Martin & Margot. Until those guys are healthy nothing will change. Margot had to play today because Kepler is nicked up.

When guys are hurt lesser players fill in due to necessity.

Kepler-Larnach-Wallner-Castro-Buxton-Miranda-Correa-Lewis-Catcher

Catcher-Lee-Martin-Santana on bench v. RH starter

3 guys here are hurt so Margot-Farmer-Julien are currently rostered.

Except for an IL stint, Farmer has been on the 26 man roster all season. He's not just filling in for injuries. At least not so far. They paid him $6M.

 

[Riverbrian]

12 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

When guys are hurt lesser players fill in due to necessity.

Exactly

And players get hurt. 

Therefore the lesser players are in the lineup.  

Therefore you should take the lesser players more seriously... and move them off the roster so you can roster better players. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Exactly

And players get hurt. 

Therefore the lesser players are in the lineup.  

Therefore you should take the lesser players more seriously... and move them off the roster so you can roster better players. 

 

Preach 

[JD-TWINS]

6 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Except for an IL stint, Farmer has been on the 26 man roster all season. He's not just filling in for injuries. At least not so far. They paid him $6M.

 

If Lee would have kept hitting…..didn’t hurt his throwing arm, Farmer wouldn’t have been activated. That coupled with Correa being out has enabled him to stick after he was ready to come off IL.

The amount of $$ he signed for last Winter doesn’t really relate to anything. If they cut him in May or July or September, they still have to honor the contract. Not real clear on how this is pertinent. The fact that he hasn’t played great is the rub with his contract - I get that.

If CC were available - if Lewis was usually available - if Julien hit a lick - if Lee didn’t get hurt, he wouldn’t be on the roster now.

[JD-TWINS]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Preach 

Who are your saviors, in theory, from the minors?……..sounds like the same group that wanted to trade or DFA Vazquez 12 weeks ago.

[USAFChief]

3 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

If Lee would have kept hitting…..didn’t hurt his throwing arm, Farmer wouldn’t have been activated. That coupled with Correa being out has enabled him to stick after he was ready to come off IL.

The amount of $$ he signed for last Winter doesn’t really relate to anything. If they cut him in May or July or September, they still have to honor the contract. Not real clear on how this is pertinent. The fact that he hasn’t played great is the rub with his contract - I get that.

If CC were available - if Lewis was usually available - if Julien hit a lick - if Lee didn’t get hurt, he wouldn’t be on the roster now.

Every single one of those players was available opening day. 

And Farmer was on the roster. 

I expect Lee to be activated Monday. We'll see who is gone.

[thelanges5]

Totally agree with this Gleeman tweet. 

 

[chpettit19]

10 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

They face Fried & Sale in 2 of next 3 games….probably not the best time to jettison the right handed hitters.

If Buxton & Correa were ready to go, as well as Lee, Farmer wouldn’t be around and there would need to be a decision between Martin & Margot. Until those guys are healthy nothing will change. Margot had to play today because Kepler is nicked up.

When guys are hurt lesser players fill in due to necessity.

Kepler-Larnach-Wallner-Castro-Buxton-Miranda-Correa-Lewis-Catcher

Catcher-Lee-Martin-Santana on bench v. RH starter

3 guys here are hurt so Margot-Farmer-Julien are currently rostered.

This is exactly why I hate rostering guys who can only hit lefties. You're making my point for me. Rostering multiple below replacement level players who you only want to hit left-handed pitchers and don't want to play a premium defensive position is a bad strategy. Because, as you laid out nicely, you don't actually get to just hit them against lefties and only play them on a corner. That's a fantasy. No team in the history of baseball has made it through a season without injuries and/or bad performance from their preferred starters (or so I assume). These guys will have to play against righties. It's a guarantee.

There are righties out there that aren't completely useless against righties. Or they can at least play a premium position at a gold glove level. The Twins choose to employ no- or bad-glove righties who can't hit righties every year. This year they're choosing to roster 2. And pay them a combined 10+ million. 

Can Severino hit .150 with a .485ish OPS against righties? Can he hit .240 with a .675ish OPS against lefties? There's your Farmer replacement already on the 40-man. Lewis can fill in at short or 2nd (they even said on the broadcast today he's been working pregame at 2nd). I'd bet with regular ABs all season long multiple of their lefties could OPS .675 against lefties. But instead they're rostering Farmer to do it while having him OPS .485 against righties. And to tie it all up with a bow and come full circle on "they'll have to face righties, too"...he has more PAs against righties than lefties. That means to ensure their lefties don't hit lefties they're giving a corner IF bat more PAs against righties while he OPSes .485 against them just to make sure he's there to OPS .676 against lefties.

Kyle Farmer is no longer a major league player. There's no defense for him being on the roster anymore besides their stubbornness with sticking to their preseason plan. And I'll actually be surprised if he isn't on the roster the entire season. Wouldn't be surprised to see him on the postseason roster even. They simply don't move off their preseason plans often. And I think it hurts them.

[JD-TWINS]

4 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Every single one of those players was available opening day. 

And Farmer was on the roster. 

I expect Lee to be activated Monday. We'll see who is gone.

So, you don’t think Farmer should have been signed in the offseason I guess? He hit .256 last year (career BA of .255) and played in 120 plus games (missed 25-30 due to getting hit in the face). He started for the Reds at SS the year before. Pretty valuable piece in ‘23.

Julien quit hitting before the end of April - Lewis got hurt the first day of the season - Lee was out with a bad back.

Lee & Lewis (2 guys on 26 man going forward) were not available after 3 innings on Opening Day.

Lee, apparently has a chronic bad back that reared its head in the spring & when he got healthy and called up he had a fantastic 2.5 weeks - then he took a nose dive for 3 weeks & then he couldn’t throw. He’s played in 26 games this year.

Lewis has played in 51 games this year. Correa has played 75 games this year. Farmer has played in 77 games…….sometime availability rules if we like it or not.

[JD-TWINS]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

This is exactly why I hate rostering guys who can only hit lefties. You're making my point for me. Rostering multiple below replacement level players who you only want to hit left-handed pitchers and don't want to player a premium defensive position is a bad strategy. Because, as you laid out nicely, you don't actually get to just hit them against lefties and only play them on a corner. That's a fantasy. No team in the history of baseball has made it through a season without injuries and/or bad performance from their preferred starters (or so I assume). These guys will have to play against righties. It's a guarantee.

There are righties out there that aren't completely useless against righties. Or they can at least play a premium position at a gold glove level. The Twins choose to employ no- or bad-glove righties who can't hit righties every year. This year they're choosing to roster 2. And pay them a combined 10+ million. 

Can Severino hit .150 with a .485ish OPS against righties? Can he hit .240 with a .675ish OPS against lefties? There's your Farmer replacement already on the 40-man. Lewis can fill in at short or 2nd (they even said on the broadcast today he's been working pregame at 2nd). I'd bet with regular ABs all season long multiple of their lefties could OPS .675 against lefties. But instead they're rostering Farmer to do it while having him OPS .485 against righties. And to tie it all up with a bow and come full circle on "they'll have to face righties, too"...he has more PAs against righties than lefties. That means to ensure their lefties don't hit lefties they're giving a corner IF bat more PAs against righties while he OPSes .485 against them just to make sure he's there to OPS .676 against lefties.

Kyle Farmer is no longer a major league player. There's no defense for him being on the roster anymore besides their stubbornness with sticking to their preseason plan.

The reason he’s got more AB’s v Righties is because they make-up 75% of the arms in baseball AND because the “fantastic youth” have not been healthy enough to play. Lewis 51 games out of 130…….Lee 26 games of 130 …….Correa 75 games of 130. ……Julien couldn’t hit well enough to stick. These are not minor issues where an organization just clicks their heels and they all go away.

[mnfireman]

3 hours ago, mnfireman said:

So after the Twins showed Farmer, the Cardinals brought in a LHP. My question is, why didn't Kepler then hit for Farmer?

Just saw Kepler was unavailable due to knee soreness.... How many days will the team drag this out before putting him on the IL?

[USAFChief]

3 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Julien couldn’t hit well enough to stick. These are not minor issues where an organization just clicks their heels and they all go away.

Interesting.

Julien has outhit Farmer by almost 100 points of OPS this year.

Higher batting average, higher OBP, higher SLG.

You can't click your heels and make that go away either.

[JD-TWINS]

3 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Just saw Kepler was unavailable due to knee soreness.... How many days will the team drag this out before putting him on the IL?

Can only make one move per AB - can’t pinch hit twice for same AB.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, JD-TWINS said:

The reason he’s got more AB’s v Righties is because they make-up 75% of the arms in baseball AND because the “fantastic youth” have not been healthy enough to play. Lewis 51 games out of 130…….Lee 26 games of 130 …….Correa 75 games of 130. ……Julien couldn’t hit well enough to stick. These are not minor issues where an organization just clicks their heels and they all go away.

Again, you're making my point. Every roster spot will be used in games. Lots of games. Rostering someone you don't want to face 75% of the league with the hopes that they won't face that 75% is just living in a fantasy land. And the Twins are rostering 2 of them.

And Julien has a .666 OPS this year. Farmer's is .577. Julien has a 94 wRC+. Let's not act like it's 67 or something. Cuz that's Farmer's. 

[mnfireman]

16 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

So, you don’t think Farmer should have been signed in the offseason I guess? He hit .256 last year (career BA of .255) and played in 120 plus games (missed 25-30 due to getting hit in the face). He started for the Reds at SS the year before. Pretty valuable piece in ‘23.

Julien quit hitting before the end of April - Lewis got hurt the first day of the season - Lee was out with a bad back.

Lee & Lewis (2 guys on 26 man going forward) were not available after 3 innings on Opening Day.

Lee, apparently has a chronic bad back that reared its head in the spring & when he got healthy and called up he had a fantastic 2.5 weeks - then he took a nose dive for 3 weeks & then he couldn’t throw. He’s played in 26 games this year.

Lewis has played in 51 games this year. Correa has played 75 games this year. Farmer has played in 77 games…….sometime availability rules if we like it or not.

Lee was headed to AAA to start the season injury or no injury. He may have been called up earlier if healthy, but probably not April. Maybe early June when Julien was sent down the first time.

[USAFChief]

10 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Can only make one move per AB - can’t pinch hit twice for same AB.

That's incorrect. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Pinch_hitter#:~:text=A pinch hitter may be,used again in the game.

 

In this specific instance, they said Kepler was out of the starting lineup for injury reasons, so I don't know if he was available or not to pinch pinch hit for Farmer.

But it wouldn't have been against the rules. You can pinch hit for a pinch hitter. 

 

[mnfireman]

3 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Can only make one move per AB - can’t pinch hit twice for same AB.

Yes you can.

https://www.baseballfarming.com/BaseballPinchHitter.html

[JD-TWINS]

8 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Interesting.

Julien has outhit Farmer by almost 100 points of OPS this year.

Higher batting average, higher OBP, higher SLG.

You can't click your heels and make that go away either.

That’s why Julien spent most of the last 8 weeks in St Paul - he’s a stallion. Struck out looking 3 times in one game - he was pathetic. If Farmer’s playing 2B today it’s a win………

That said, I hope Eddie can be the regular 2B at some point but he needs to earn it……,,that’s not hitting 7 HR by April 27 and none since. It helps your OPS but you’re still the same confused looking guy most of the time. He has had a couple multi-hit games in the last few days - sure hope it sticks!

I don’t care if they DFA Farmer by midnight - I just think looking at results and thinking they all should have been anticipated is unfair no matter who is making the decisions.

[JD-TWINS]

28 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Yes you can.

https://www.baseballfarming.com/BaseballPinchHitter.html

Point made - never seen it in 55 years of watching MLB nor any other level of baseball. My impression was once the guy was announced he was in for the AB, period. That’s why the opposing mgr. waits for that occurrence before going to the mound to make a pitching change. I guess the same for pitcher though I’ve never seen two pitchers switched in same AB either.

[USAFChief]

27 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Point made - never seen it in 55 years of watching MLB nor any other level of baseball. My impression was once the guy was announced he was in for the AB, period. That’s why the opposing mgr. waits for that occurrence before going to the mound to make a pitching change. I guess the same for pitcher though I’ve never seen two pitchers switched in same AB either.

Prior to the new three hitter minimum (2020), a relief pitcher had to complete one PA, or record one out, whichever came first, before he could be replaced.

The manager on offense always has had the last substitution opportunity. 

The manager on defense waits until the pinch hitter has been announced, because the player isn't officially in the game until then.