Byron Buxton/Carlos Correa - 50 million?!?

[GeorgeLooney]

I know it’s easy to hate on players such as Kyle farmer and Manuel Margot along with coaches like Baldelli and Popkins but right now we have two players who are supposed to be leading this team and make a combined 50 million a season and as of right now have a combined 4 home runs and 24 rbis to go along with about a .260 average. To put that in perspective Brent Rooker has outproduced them together offensively. 
 

The twins are stuck with these two for the foreseeable future - is there anything positive to take away from this or does anyone think they can turn it around? 

[Azviking101]

I expect Correa to provide value as long as he’s healthy but Buxton just seems ruined to me. He’s always going to have consistent IL trips and his pitch recognition and bat speed are at an all time low. I don’t anticipate him providing much value anymore. 

[GeorgeLooney]

1 minute ago, Azviking101 said:

I expect Correa to provide value as long as he’s healthy but Buxton just seems ruined to me. He’s always going to have consistent IL trips and his pitch recognition and bat speed are at an all time low. I don’t anticipate him providing much value anymore. 

I hope Buxton figures it out because he is expected to be a twin for a long time yet. 

[bean5302]

Correa is a stud shortstop with a wRC+ 127 on pace for a 4 WAR season. He's right in line with what you could expect. Buxton's been a disappointment at the plate, but not like some other guys. Neither Correa, nor Buxton were legitimate options to change before this season. A whole bunch of other guys were.

[MABB1959]

They sure are not KAT or ANT.  So happily surprised in the development of these two.  They played their hearts out!  Is it the coaching?  Was it a good recruiting effort.  I checked and the Timberwolves are at the bottom of payroll.

[GeorgeLooney]

13 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

They sure are not KAT or ANT.  So happily surprised in the development of these two.  They played their hearts out!  Is it the coaching?  Was it a good recruiting effort.  I checked and the Timberwolves are at the bottom of payroll.

I am not a big basketball fan but I love edwards attitude. It’s nice to see Minnesota teams with guys like Edwards and Jefferson. I hope the T-wolves can finish this thing and break this curse that Minnesota teams seemed to have. 

[GeorgeLooney]

41 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Correa is a stud shortstop with a wRC+ 127 on pace for a 4 WAR season. He's right in line with what you could expect. Buxton's been a disappointment at the plate, but not like some other guys. Neither Correa, nor Buxton were legitimate options to change before this season. A whole bunch of other guys were.

We are roughly a third of the way into the season and although I agree that Correa is a good defensive shortstop i highly doubt this is the kind of production the twins thought they were going to get after signing him to the big contract last year. He had sub par year last year offensively, several trips to the injured list, and now this year he is on pace for about 12 home runs and 40 rbis. I would hope 33 million buys more than that. 

[JD-TWINS]

14 hours ago, GeorgeLooney said:

I know it’s easy to hate on players such as Kyle farmer and Manuel Margot along with coaches like Baldelli and Popkins but right now we have two players who are supposed to be leading this team and make a combined 50 million a season and as of right now have a combined 4 home runs and 24 rbis to go along with about a .260 average. To put that in perspective Brent Rooker has outproduced them together offensively. 
 

The twins are stuck with these two for the foreseeable future - is there anything positive to take away from this or does anyone think they can turn it around? 

Can’t argue a lack of productivity from these 2 that should be elevating the team! Buxton needs to stay in the line-up, he was out 2.5 weeks, and he’ll get to a power rhythm. Correa can still hit 18-22 HR …..he was out 3 weeks.

If Buxton hits .240 & Correa hits .270 they’ll both be productive power guys as well.

Comparing to Brent Rooker is fine, as I’ve seen from others here, but when Brent goes on the 2-33 slide that is nearly inevitably coming we should point that out as well………it’s May 20th. Rooker had a very solid ‘23 with a 126 OPS+ ……. a .329 OBP ……30 HR. An All-star! This year he’s improved on this numbers - I don’t see him maintaining these levels through the year, as he declined over a few weeks here and there in ‘23. 

Correa is hitting 21 points higher - OBP is 30 points higher - OPS+ is 2 points lower. Doesn’t have the HR’s yet ……….he also plays SS every day and isn’t a DH.

Buxton hit 17 HR & 17 doubles last year in 85 games ………hopefully, he’s got 85 games or more in him through the balance of ‘24. He’s at  43 points higher BA than last year with 8 doubles & 1 HR to date. If he can duplicate what many would consider a poor 2023 over the balance of this year he’ll hit .230 with 25 doubles and 18 HR. With him in CF, that’s worth $15M!

[bean5302]

10 minutes ago, GeorgeLooney said:

We are roughly a third of the way into the season and although I agree that Correa is a good defensive shortstop i highly doubt this is the kind of production the twins thought they were going to get after signing him to the big contract last year. He had sub par year last year offensively, several trips to the injured list, and now this year he is on pace for about 12 home runs and 40 rbis. I would hope 33 million buys more than that. 

So you think the Twins were expecting what? 60 HR power, 8 run home runs with nobody on base?

Correa can't drive in runs that aren't on base. He's 27% better than the average MLB hitter in a whopping 30 games played. What do you care if it came from home runs or doubles and walks? Right now Correa's xwOBA is 35 points higher than actual, and he'd be on pace for 20+ home runs if he played all his games at Dodger Stadium. He is clearly not the problem.

[Azviking101]

I think fans are spending too much time focusing on individual performances instead of recognizing that almost no one on this team is producing beyond what’s expected of them right now. Nearly everyone is underperforming expectations. Yeah they had a hot streak and most guys haven’t been bad all season long but when looking at the full season worth of stats this is pretty close to a total system failure right now. Hard to blame individual players for that. We heard it from Duran the other day. These guys are being told what to do and it’s not working. 

[GeorgeLooney]

5 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Can’t argue a lack of productivity from these 2 that should be elevating the team! Buxton needs to stay in the line-up, he was out 2.5 weeks, and he’ll get to a power rhythm. Correa can still hit 18-22 HR …..he was out 3 weeks.

If Buxton hits .240 & Correa hits .270 they’ll both be productive power guys as well.

Comparing to Brent Rooker is fine, as I’ve seen from others here, but when Brent goes on the 2-33 slide that is nearly inevitably coming we should point that out as well………it’s May 20th. Rooker had a very solid ‘23 with a 126 OPS+ ……. a .329 OBP ……30 HR. An All-star! This year he’s improved on this numbers - I don’t see him maintaining these levels through the year, as he declined over a few weeks here and there in ‘23. 

Correa is hitting 21 points higher - OBP is 30 points higher - OPS+ is 2 points lower. Doesn’t have the HR’s yet ……….he also plays SS every day and isn’t a DH.

Buxton hit 17 HR & 17 doubles last year in 85 games ………hopefully, he’s got 85 games or more in him through the balance of ‘24. He’s at  43 points higher BA than last year with 8 doubles & 1 HR to date. If he can duplicate what many would consider a poor 2023 over the balance of this year he’ll hit .230 with 25 doubles and 18 HR. With him in CF, that’s worth $15M!

Hope your right - I could respect those numbers. 

[JD-TWINS]

15 minutes ago, GeorgeLooney said:

We are roughly a third of the way into the season and although I agree that Correa is a good defensive shortstop i highly doubt this is the kind of production the twins thought they were going to get after signing him to the big contract last year. He had sub par year last year offensively, several trips to the injured list, and now this year he is on pace for about 12 home runs and 40 rbis. I would hope 33 million buys more than that. 

He needs to be on the field, he was out for 15 games - has only played in 30 games of the 47. Another 7 games to go to get to the 1/3 of season mark. He’s a .272 career average hitter - at .267 as of today. He’s averaged 19 HR/yr over his 9 year career……,,.to be fair, those averages come with an average expectation of 115 games per season. He’ll be OK……..,my assumption is there was no expectation for Correa to become something much higher than his annual output over his career when signed for $35M per year.

[JD-TWINS]

7 minutes ago, Azviking101 said:

I think fans are spending too much time focusing on individual performances instead of recognizing that almost no one on this team is producing beyond what’s expected of them right now. Nearly everyone is underperforming expectations. Yeah they had a hot streak and most guys haven’t been bad all season long but when looking at the full season worth of stats this is pretty close to a total system failure right now. Hard to blame individual players for that. We heard it from Duran the other day. These guys are being told what to do and it’s not working. 

He’s gotta execute his pitches - his being told what to do & failing is a WEAK excuse. He didn’t give up a run in his first 6 outings - gotta assume the coaching was from the same brain trust for those games as well………it’s only an issue when guys screw up?

[GeorgeLooney]

11 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

So you think the Twins were expecting what? 60 HR power, 8 run home runs with nobody on base?

Correa can't drive in runs that aren't on base. He's 27% better than the average MLB hitter in a whopping 30 games played. What do you care if it came from home runs or doubles and walks? Right now Correa's xwOBA is 35 points higher than actual, and he'd be on pace for 20+ home runs if he played all his games at Dodger Stadium. He is clearly not the problem.

Calm down bud…..it’s my opinion you don’t have to get yourself so worked up. You can give me all the advanced stats you want. My eyes give me the opinion that this player hasn’t been worth a 33 million dollar investment to this point. Sorry that hurts your feelings. 

[bean5302]

7 minutes ago, GeorgeLooney said:

Calm down bud…..it’s my opinion you don’t have to get yourself so worked up. You can give me all the advanced stats you want. My eyes give me the opinion that this player hasn’t been worth a 33 million dollar investment to this point. Sorry that hurts your feelings. 

I think that's fine you're expecting more from him, but I don't think the Twins were expecting more than what they're getting from him this year. Certainly, last year's regular season was a real letdown, but he was also a monster in the playoffs last year after the Twins finally gave him a couple weeks to rest his fried foot. Correa was one of two players on the team who actually made the Astros pitchers throw strikes.

In any case, you'll be happy to know it's not $33MM next year. It goes up to $37MM haha

[NotAboutWinning]

I don't think the $50 million is the problem. Not outrageous in the current baseball environment. But committing to those contracts and then cutting payroll by $30 million is. Someone changed horses mid-stream. Don't know if it was Joe or the family ownership, but this is going to be a problem for the foreseeable future.

[Squirrel]

53 minutes ago, GeorgeLooney said:

We are roughly a third of the way into the season and although I agree that Correa is a good defensive shortstop i highly doubt this is the kind of production the twins thought they were going to get after signing him to the big contract last year. He had sub par year last year offensively, several trips to the injured list, and now this year he is on pace for about 12 home runs and 40 rbis. I would hope 33 million buys more than that. 

He isn't just good defensively. He is the best SS this team has ever had. I can't believe how much people downplay defense, and I get it in other positions, but not in probably the most important defensive position on the field. This take is just wrong, imo. I think he's worth every cent. And last year he struggled with plantar fasciitis most of the year. While I'd like to see his bat be better, evaluating him in terms of offense only is just wrong.

The problem isn't what these two are being paid. It's what the owner has cut payroll to. That's the problem.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

3 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

He isn't just good defensively. He is the best SS this team has ever had. I can't believe how much people downplay defense, and I get it in other positions, but not in probably the most important defensive position on the field. This take is just wrong, imo. I think he's worth every cent. And last year he struggled with plantar fasciitis most of the year. While I'd like to see his bat be better, evaluating him in terms of offense only is just wrong.

The problem isn't what these two are being paid. It's what the owner has cut payroll to. That's the problem.

This. People don't appreciate how good Correa is. And I'm willing to bet that he's the one that organized the players only meeting and spoke up the loudest. One of the best leaders in the sport. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

The other problem when evaluating Correa's bat - if I'm an opposing pitcher - I'm not giving him anything to hit. Rarely are guys on base when he comes up to hit and more often than not, he has someone like Manny Margot or AK hitting behind him.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

As for Buxton, I don't know - he might just be a sunken cost at this point. He definitely looks to have lost some bat speed and the elite athleticism that made him so special in CF is starting to wane. His best years are behind him.

[Schmoeman5]

21 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

He isn't just good defensively. He is the best SS this team has ever had. I can't believe how much people downplay defense, and I get it in other positions, but not in probably the most important defensive position on the field. This take is just wrong, imo. I think he's worth every cent. And last year he struggled with plantar fasciitis most of the year. While I'd like to see his bat be better, evaluating him in terms of offense only is just wrong.

The problem isn't what these two are being paid. It's what the owner has cut payroll to. That's the problem.

I disagree in your assessment of Correa. His defense is still good. But the guy playing SS for the Twins is not the same guy who played short for the Astros. And these were supposed to be his prime years. And we've gone around on defense a few times. You see improvement on some where I don't. I will follow that up with. I think part of me saying he's not the same SS in Minnesota is he doesn't have Altuve to his left or Bregman to his right in fairness to Correa.

[GeorgeLooney]

18 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

He isn't just good defensively. He is the best SS this team has ever had. I can't believe how much people downplay defense, and I get it in other positions, but not in probably the most important defensive position on the field. This take is just wrong, imo. I think he's worth every cent. And last year he struggled with plantar fasciitis most of the year. While I'd like to see his bat be better, evaluating him in terms of offense only is just wrong.

The problem isn't what these two are being paid. It's what the owner has cut payroll to. That's the problem.

Andrelton Simmons played for this team and he is considered to be one of the best defensive shortstops in major league history. He wasn’t paid 33 million a year - I am sorry but I feel for that kind of money he needs to be a superstar. 

[GeorgeLooney]

16 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

The other problem when evaluating Correa's bat - if I'm an opposing pitcher - I'm not giving him anything to hit. Rarely are guys on base when he comes up to hit and more often than not, he has someone like Manny Margot or AK hitting behind him.

This. I am not sure why Margot would ever be batting in the three hole. I felt like he is much more of a candidate to be DFA’d then hit in that spot. I don’t understand a lot of Baldellis decisions however. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeLooney said:

This. I am not sure why Margot would ever be batting in the three hole. I felt like he is much more of a candidate to be DFA’d then hit in that spot. I don’t understand a lot of Baldellis decisions however. 

You're not alone. A lot of head scratchers from Rocco.

[GeorgeLooney]

Just now, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

You're not alone. A lot of head scratchers from Rocco.

The thing I really don’t get is sitting red hot hitters against pitching matchups that aren’t necessarily in their favor for hitters such as farmer and Margot. 

[JD-TWINS]

36 minutes ago, NotAboutWinning said:

I don't think the $50 million is the problem. Not outrageous in the current baseball environment. But committing to those contracts and then cutting payroll by $30 million is. Someone changed horses mid-stream. Don't know if it was Joe or the family ownership, but this is going to be a problem for the foreseeable future.

Completely agree……$50M to two guys is a commitment and not a bad thing considering the talent level!

Switching gears and reverting to 2021 payroll total is a problem 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

11 minutes ago, GeorgeLooney said:

The thing I really don’t get is sitting red hot hitters against pitching matchups that aren’t necessarily in their favor for hitters such as farmer and Margot. 

Yeah, Max is on the biggest hot streak of his career and Rocco still wants to play the lefty-righty game. Zero feel and stubborn beyond belief.

[GeorgeLooney]

4 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Yeah, Max is on the biggest hot streak of his career and Rocco still wants to play the lefty-righty game. Zero feel and stubborn beyond belief.

Hey I am happy to say Correa and buxton came out and are making me look stupid. Triple and a homer! 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

8 hours ago, GeorgeLooney said:

Calm down bud…..it’s my opinion you don’t have to get yourself so worked up. You can give me all the advanced stats you want. My eyes give me the opinion that this player hasn’t been worth a 33 million dollar investment to this point. Sorry that hurts your feelings. 

If no one can change your opinion, and all that matters is your opinion, what was the point of this thread?

the whole point of the forums is to discuss and debate.

[GNess]

11 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

As for Buxton, I don't know - he might just be a sunken cost at this point. He definitely looks to have lost some bat speed and the elite athleticism that made him so special in CF is starting to wane. His best years are behind him.

I respectfully disagree on BB although I understand your point. BB has always been able to put together extended hitting streaks. I suspect we'll. see 2-3 of those this season if he can stay on the field. (Fingers crossed.) He is only 30 and i see plenty of athletic ability still. Besides BB is a player who seems very much a team guy - I have to root for him.