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How much longer is the front office going to sit around and watch this team underperform?


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I think Rocco has clearly lost the clubhouse and this team and it shows in multiple ways, 

This team has no energy and has been pretty much lifeless since the end of April. How about make a damn line up and stick with it?

We have no fundamentals at all and can't do the simple things like simply bunt a guy over and strike out at least 10 times a game. 

How can our lefties get any better at hitting left handed pitching if they are never allowed to do so?

It's becoming unwatchable IMO and something needs to change and fast!

 

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Sometimes it feels like the FO doesn't even care if they win or not.  It's been a very long time since I have seen this Twins organization as messed up as it is.  This isn't new.  This has been going on for the third straight season now.  I'd like to see the sports media put more pressure on the players and especially management.  Someone needs to be held accountable for this mess.  Yet all we hear us bad luck, bad umpiring, and injuries.  Some of those injured players haven't done well anyway for two seasons.  Let's back off using the sick, lane, and lazy as excuses.  

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The problem as I see it is the players they draft. Larnach, Rooker, Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Hicks, maybe Kirilloff, and I may have missed some more guys. They are all the same player. They hit with some power but have no plate discipline! Is this the players themselves or the way they are being taught in the minors?

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40 minutes ago, dadams1000 said:

The problem as I see it is the players they draft. Larnach, Rooker, Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Hicks, maybe Kirilloff, and I may have missed some more guys. They are all the same player. They hit with some power but have no plate discipline! Is this the players themselves or the way they are being taught in the minors?

Short answer: both. But there’s something definitely broken with the hitting philosophy of this team since the juiced ball Bomba thing. It’s not unique to the Twins, but they seem to be all in on it. 

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3 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

I think Rocco has clearly lost the clubhouse and this team and it shows in multiple ways, 

This team has no energy and has been pretty much lifeless since the end of April. How about make a damn line up and stick with it?

We have no fundamentals at all and can't do the simple things like simply bunt a guy over and strike out at least 10 times a game. 

How can our lefties get any better at hitting left handed pitching if they are never allowed to do so?

It's becoming unwatchable IMO and something needs to change and fast!

 

I talked about an "it" factor the other day and got mocked by many.  This team schould not be looking at this year.  Look to build a really good team down the line...

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7 hours ago, Whitey333 said:

Sometimes it feels like the FO doesn't even care if they win or not.  It's been a very long time since I have seen this Twins organization as messed up as it is.  This isn't new.  This has been going on for the third straight season now.  I'd like to see the sports media put more pressure on the players and especially management.  Someone needs to be held accountable for this mess.  Yet all we hear us bad luck, bad umpiring, and injuries.  Some of those injured players haven't done well anyway for two seasons.  Let's back off using the sick, lane, and lazy as excuses.  

Going on for the third straight season.   It's almost like this team has played with no heart since Eddie Rosario (and Nelson Cruz) left.

 

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13 hours ago, dadams1000 said:

The problem as I see it is the players they draft. Larnach, Rooker, Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Hicks, maybe Kirilloff, and I may have missed some more guys. They are all the same player. They hit with some power but have no plate discipline! Is this the players themselves or the way they are being taught in the minors?

Not the biggest fan of this FO, but most of the players you mentioned were not drafted by them. (Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Hicks and AK) just Larnach and Rooker.

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8 hours ago, stringer bell said:

I'll defend the team and the manager from most of the accusations in this thread. I don't think this is an attitude problem or that Baldelli has "lost the team". The front office might be culpable for player decisions and the construction of the team. They seem to have a lot of guys that can't stay healthy.

I think we are beginning to see results in the much mocked "pitching pipeline". Both Varland and Ober have gone from middling at best prospects to guys that we can project to be rotation mainstays. 

The underachievement has come principally from the position players and more often than not regress to the mean which would indicate improvement in the last 100 games. I am not sure if the major league batting coaches are effective. The chief guy, Popkins, had not had much experience and certainly not as a major league coach. The strikeouts are record setting and not in a good way. A change in approach probably needs to be done, but the roster is full of strikeout-prone players, so maybe it's on the front office.

Alex Kirilloff and Royce Lewis look to me like they could be stars as soon as this year. Carlos Correa and Byron Buxton should be more productive, if they are healthy. Speaking of health, the roster seems to be showing their issues that players can't stay healthy. Baldelli can't go with a set lineup when he has less than a full bench and players haven't established themselves, some of whom have had a full chance.

I won't give up on this team just yet. I think the offense will pick up substantially. They probably need to make some kind of move to improve production from their corner outfielders. The better-hitting catcher should be playing more. I just don't think this is a lost cause as of yet.

Good Post... I agree that the responses in this thread didn't start well. The front office has enough **** on their head to absorb things like attitude or lost the team accusations. 

However, the question posed in this thread is an excellent question. 

I encourage everyone to go to your favorite stat source and do a sort Vs Right Handers. Roll through the different stats... look at the players congregating at the bottom as you do. 

When I do it... here is what I see. Vs. Right Handed Pitchers: Our Left Handed hitters - Kepler, Larnach, Gallo and Gordon are at the bottom along with Correa.

Kirilloff is the only left handed hitter doing well. 

I continue to ask... what are we doing?   

 

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26 minutes ago, Irishman said:

If they don’t care at all, then that’s fine with me and I don’t come watch.

Viscous circle if attendance drops they have a great excuse not to spend but I think most of us would agree that is their typical method of operation.  We can afford one MAYBE two valuable/somewhat expensive players. So they seem to trade good players before they have to pay them.  We should have been able to keep Arraez and pay for a player of Lopez's abilities.  But it has been that way since they traded Torii and then Mourneau to afford Mauer.  Berrios was due for a big pay day (even though I don't think he wanted to stay) and they panicked and got us two players we have yet to see while Berrios is doing a very good job for Toronto.  Arraez would have been pricey to resign and on and on.  

Yet we keep thinking or hoping for something better and I doubt that is coming.

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55 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Good Post... I agree that the responses in this thread didn't start well. The front office has enough **** on their head to absorb things like attitude or lost the team accusations. 

However, the question posed in this thread is an excellent question. 

I encourage everyone to go to your favorite stat source and do a sort Vs Right Handers. Roll through the different stats... look at the players congregating at the bottom as you do. 

When I do it... here is what I see. Vs. Right Handed Pitchers: Our Left Handed hitters - Kepler, Larnach, Gallo and Gordon are at the bottom along with Correa.

Kirilloff is the only left handed hitter doing well. 

I continue to ask... what are we doing?   

 

Depending too much on their tablets to do the work and not using one ounce of instinct.  They should stop using stats and use their baseball minds.

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It is apparent that the Twins lack leadership.  Rocco seems like a nice guy, but doesn't seem like a leader. Watching his interviews after games are almost always the same with him saying we have to play better. I just do not understand why the front office decided to extend him, it just doesn't make sense. The Twins have losing record in 1 run games, have losing record in extra inning games and lead baseball in strikeouts so front office rewards the manager by extending him.

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4 minutes ago, John Belinski said:

It is apparent that the Twins lack leadership.  Rocco seems like a nice guy, but doesn't seem like a leader. Watching his interviews after games are almost always the same with him saying we have to play better. I just do not understand why the front office decided to extend him, it just doesn't make sense. The Twins have losing record in 1 run games, have losing record in extra inning games and lead baseball in strikeouts so front office rewards the manager by extending him.

No manager who wants to keep his reputation would ever want to manage the Twins and it starts at the top.

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17 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

I predicted we would go 0-6 on this current roadtrip. 

That should be enough to send Rocco to the unemployment line.

He should have been fired the day after the 7-0 loss to the Rays with 12 K's or 

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16 hours ago, Whitey333 said:

Sometimes it feels like the FO doesn't even care if they win or not. 

In the extreme analytics world, process is far more important than results.   Recall that the only person held accountable after the last 2 debacles was the trainer - a guy who is part of the "process" but has nothing to do with the results.  

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14 hours ago, 1991 said:

I talked about an "it" factor the other day and got mocked by many.  This team schould not be looking at this year.  Look to build a really good team down the line...

The Twins have been "down the line" for a long time.

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37 minutes ago, John Belinski said:

It is apparent that the Twins lack leadership.  Rocco seems like a nice guy, but doesn't seem like a leader. Watching his interviews after games are almost always the same with him saying we have to play better. I just do not understand why the front office decided to extend him, it just doesn't make sense. The Twins have losing record in 1 run games, have losing record in extra inning games and lead baseball in strikeouts so front office rewards the manager by extending him.

Just to clear something up, Rocco had his options picked up after the 2021 season. The "extension" wasn't something they just gave him recently, it was just reported recently. So all the things you're claiming he was rewarded for came after his options were picked up. They didn't even "reward him" for the 2022 struggles as they'd already picked up his options. He's been under contract through 2025 since 2021. This isn't a new development.

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2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

 So all the things you're claiming he was rewarded for came after his options were picked up. They didn't even "reward him" for the 2022 struggles as they'd already picked up his options.

The Twins won 73 games in 2021.  Rocco was rewarded for this result with a contract extension.  

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1 minute ago, Woof Bronzer said:

The Twins won 73 games in 2021.  Rocco was rewarded for this result with a contract extension.  

And he'd won over 60% of his games before that. His contract was set to runout after 2022 which would've made him a "lame duck" manager, and it's awfully standard for teams to extend their managers at that point. Managers don't have their contracts run out, they get fired.

I'm not even defending Rocco, or the extension, or anything. Just giving the facts of the situation. People seem to believe that Rocco was recently extended during this miserable stretch, when it isn't true.

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1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

And he'd won over 60% of his games before that. His contract was set to runout after 2022 which would've made him a "lame duck" manager, and it's awfully standard for teams to extend their managers at that point. Managers don't have their contracts run out, they get fired.

I'm not even defending Rocco, or the extension, or anything. Just giving the facts of the situation. People seem to believe that Rocco was recently extended during this miserable stretch, when it isn't true.

I get it, not saying he should have been fired after 2021, but he certainly didn't need to be handed an extension either.  The fact of the situation is, this FO extended Rocco after losing 89 games AND neglected to tell anyone for 18 months because they obviously knew the optics would be bad.  That says an awful lot to me about this FO's philosophy and the Twins culture, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this team hasn't had a pulse in more than a month.  

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1 minute ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I get it, not saying he should have been fired after 2021, but he certainly didn't need to be handed an extension either.  The fact of the situation is, this FO extended Rocco after losing 89 games AND neglected to tell anyone for 18 months because they obviously knew the optics would be bad.  That says an awful lot to me about this FO's philosophy and the Twins culture, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this team hasn't had a pulse in more than a month.  

Does either of these simplified scenarios make sense?  

Scenario #1

Front Office: Rocco, you have executed exactly how we want you to execute and because you have, we are going to make a change and let you go. These guys will usher you out of the building we will clean out your office, pack up your stuff and mail it to your house. 

Scenario #2

Front Office: Rocco, we want you to start Hatteberg at 1st base. You tell us to go stuff ourselves and you start Pena instead. We would like to offer you a contract extension. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I get it, not saying he should have been fired after 2021, but he certainly didn't need to be handed an extension either.  The fact of the situation is, this FO extended Rocco after losing 89 games AND neglected to tell anyone for 18 months because they obviously knew the optics would be bad.  That says an awful lot to me about this FO's philosophy and the Twins culture, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this team hasn't had a pulse in more than a month.  

I don't have any idea why the news took so long to come out. I'm not one to read into those kinds of things too much. Way too many things I don't know about to feel confident with any stance on that.

But, while they didn't NEED to give him an extension, it's what every team does. Not just in baseball. Go look at college football, or the NFL, or NHL, or NBA, or any league. How many coaches do you see that just have their contracts run out? I'm sure there have been some, but I'd guess over 90% of them get extensions before the last year of their deal, and are then fired. It's pretty standard stuff. It's hard to run a clubhouse (or locker room) when everyone knows you're a lame duck manager (coach) and may be gone the next year. So, no, they didn't have to extend him, but if they weren't going to fire him it's standard operating procedure to extend him. Teams spend a lot of money on ex coaches because they all get fired.

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24 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

I get it, not saying he should have been fired after 2021, but he certainly didn't need to be handed an extension either.  The fact of the situation is, this FO extended Rocco after losing 89 games AND neglected to tell anyone for 18 months because they obviously knew the optics would be bad.  That says an awful lot to me about this FO's philosophy and the Twins culture, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this team hasn't had a pulse in more than a month.  

I think people are making way too big a deal of this extension. It doesn't mean he sticks as manager until the end of his contract. Managers get fired all the time, in the middle of their contracts. This is making a mountain out of a molehill, which I understand because we're all frustrated as heck about the current situation. But honestly, I don't even think Rocco is the problem. All of this starts at the top. It was the same when people were calling for Gardy to be axed well before he was. It always starts at the top, imo. So until there is a change at the top, this is what it is. And if Rocco goes, it will still be the same old stuff because, as I said, change starts at the top.

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17 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

I think Rocco has clearly lost the clubhouse and this team and it shows in multiple ways, 

This team has no energy and has been pretty much lifeless since the end of April. How about make a damn line up and stick with it?

We have no fundamentals at all and can't do the simple things like simply bunt a guy over and strike out at least 10 times a game. 

How can our lefties get any better at hitting left handed pitching if they are never allowed to do so?

It's becoming unwatchable IMO and something needs to change and fast!

 

I agree....unwatchable. Pathetic to watch strike out after strike out. Also pathetic to watch the errors. "Oh gee, the ball must have hit a pebble on the infield. It's the grounds keepers fault."

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3 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Not the biggest fan of this FO, but most of the players you mentioned were not drafted by them. (Buxton, Sano, Kepler, Hicks and AK) just Larnach and Rooker.

You are correct - can't hang those five on them.  But can hang this impressive group: Rooker, Landon Leach, Enlow, Larnach, Cavaco, Sabato, Soularie.  This is just the top 3 rounds from 2017-2020.  Go to Baseball Reference and take a look at their drafting skills since the 2017 draft - not pretty and a big reason we are seeing this product on the field.

Here is what we have from 2021 Draft:  Petty (Traded for 1.5 seasons of Gray) Gone, Miller (so far not so good), Hajjar (not even wiht the Twins - Guardians now), Povich (Traded).  That is the first 3 rounds.  Another lost draft.

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