Positional flexibility

[stringer bell]

There are some people on this site that have preached that Twins players should be flexible. This year with a couple of new players (Arraez and Marwin Gonzalez) and a new manager, the Twins have demonstrated that they have a roster of players who are flexible. Four players have started at at least four positions, and four more players have started at at least two positions. 

 

I've followed the Twins since they moved to Minnesota and I've never seen a more versatile position player roster. 

 

 

 

 

Marwin Gonzalez--1B (8), 2B (2), SS (1), 3B (32), LF (7), RF (7)

Ehire Adrianza--1B (2), 2B (7), SS (11), 3B (11), RF (2)

Luis Arraez--2B (7), SS (2), 3B (4), LF (5)

Willians Astudillo--1B (4), 2B (1), 3B (8), RF (3), LF (1) C (13)

Max Kepler--RF (59), CF (17)

Eddie Rosario--LF (69), CF (1)

Jake Cave--RF (13), LF (4), CF (2)

Miguel Sanó--3B (33), 1B (2)

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think that's a boon and a detriment.

 

It's boon because you have players who can shuffle the diamond. That's good, injuries happen. You need guys like Kepler and Gonzalez to move around a lot.

 

It's a detriment because it means the Twins don't have many dominant defensive players at a position. Notice that the best outfielder in baseball, Buxton, doesn't move positions because OF COURSE HE DOESN'T. If the Twins had a shortstop of that calibre, it'd be the same thing. Or a purely dominant second baseman, who *may* move over to short on occasion.

 

This is a really good roster and I commend the FO for putting it together but it's more of a "let's make this work through sheer body count that doesn't suck" than an actual dominant defensive alignment.

 

But again, the boon is that sheer dominance fails if a single person falters. Pick your poison.

[Thegrin]

I love the flexibility of the lineup.  I love the steady superiority of our regular outfield, and it doesn't lose much when Cave plays.  However, Austudillo, Arrianza, Gonzalez & Arraez do not a competent fielder make. 

[Platoon]

To expand on Brock's comments, one could take the Turtle as an example. Some on this site see him as postionally flexible. Others see him as defensively berift at every position he plays. No names will be mentioned to protect freedom of expression. Brock's use off Buxton is semi correct. Semi? Yes, due to the fact that Buxtons enormous athletic ability would likely allow him to play quite a few different positions, albeit not to the caliber that he does CF. Mauer as a catcher v IF is a perfect correlation. That leaves us with the Turtles and Marwins of the world. Good enough to play numerous positions at a sufficient level to be rostered, but never so outstanding that their talent at one spot is so overriding, their manager doesn't want to lose that level of defense. Positional "inflexibility" is a good thing up the middle. Flexibility is easier to take on the edges. Polanco is another good example. On a team with an excellent defensive SS, he would be a perfect candidate for a super IF sub. Plays everyday for his bat at some IF spot. Doesn't "hurt" the team with his glove, and helps with his bat. Nice example of postionally flexible.

[stringer bell]

While I agree that the only defensive superstar the Twins have is Buxton, I think it is valuable to point out the players who haven't move--both catcher (other than Astudillo), Schoop, Polanco, and Buxton. In other words, the "regulars" in the center of the diamond are staying put. 

 

The Twins have a bench of multi-position players to fill in capably and often for the eight nominal regulars who have a glove. 

[Squirrel]

Where’s Brian on this? Surprised he hasn’t written several lengthy posts on the matter!

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

Where’s Brian on this? Surprised he hasn’t written several lengthy posts on the matter!

Each one goofier than the last.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Where’s Brian on this? Surprised he hasn’t written several lengthy posts on the matter!

 

I was half tempted to accuse Stringer of trolling Brian.  

[Battle ur tail off]

 

I think that's a boon and a detriment.

 

It's boon because you have players who can shuffle the diamond. That's good, injuries happen. You need guys like Kepler and Gonzalez to move around a lot.

 

It's a detriment because it means the Twins don't have many dominant defensive players at a position. Notice that the best outfielder in baseball, Buxton, doesn't move positions because OF COURSE HE DOESN'T. If the Twins had a shortstop of that calibre, it'd be the same thing. Or a purely dominant second baseman, who *may* move over to short on occasion.

 

This is a really good roster and I commend the FO for putting it together but it's more of a "let's make this work through sheer body count that doesn't suck" than an actual dominant defensive alignment.

 

But again, the boon is that sheer dominance fails if a single person falters. Pick your poison.

 

Polanco has been a baller at short. I wish people would quit worrying about him as some kind of defensive liability. He's good there, he hits and he's locked up. One of the best SS's(all around) this club has ever employed. 

[dbminn]

The defensive flexibility of Adrianza and Gonzalez have been really important in the first half.

 

Buxton isn't the only excellent defender. Kepler is a very good defensive OF too.  By FG def, Buxton and Kepler are the #1 and #2 defensive OF. By DRS, they're tied for third, behind Bellinger and Kiermaier.

[jimbo92107]

Positional flexibility is an absolute godsend for the Minnesota Twins. It has allowed Baldelli to fill out a lineup every day without worrying if a player at a certain position even knows where to throw the ball after fielding it. 

 

As beneficial as it is for the team, it also benefits players - especially those that otherwise might not quite star at one position, like Astudillo, but whose bat is too good to leave on the bench. It has also let Baldy give his guys rotational breaks to keep them fresh. Kepler spells Buxton. Torts spells Garver and Castro. Gonzo and Adrianza spell just about everybody on defense. When we look back on this season, the team's ability to spread the load may be a main reason they make it to the end with a relatively healthy roster. 

 

Another benefit has been shifting the defense. Sano has played shortstop on pull shifts for a lefty, and he looked just fine, partly because he played some short in the low minors. And yeah, Buxton could play RF or LF...if you can find somebody better to play center!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Polanco has been a baller at short. I wish people would quit worrying about him as some kind of defensive liability. He's good there, he hits and he's locked up. One of the best SS's(all around) this club has ever employed. 

I'm not knocking Polanco at all. He's a very good overall player. 

 

But he's not a defensive standout.

[Doomtints]

 

There are some people on this site that have preached that Twins players should be flexible. This year with a couple of new players (Arraez and Marwin Gonzalez) and a new manager, the Twins have demonstrated that they have a roster of players who are flexible. Four players have started at at least four positions, and four more players have started at at least two positions. 

 

I've followed the Twins since they moved to Minnesota and I've never seen a more versatile position player roster. 

 

 

 

 

Marwin Gonzalez--1B (8), 2B (2), SS (1), 3B (32), LF (7), RF (7)

Ehire Adrianza--1B (2), 2B (7), SS (11), 3B (11), RF (2)

Luis Arraez--2B (7), SS (2), 3B (4), LF (5)

Willians Astudillo--1B (4), 2B (1), 3B (8), RF (3), LF (1) C (13)

Max Kepler--RF (59), CF (17)

Eddie Rosario--LF (69), CF (1)

Jake Cave--RF (13), LF (4), CF (2)

Miguel Sanó--3B (33), 1B (2)

 

I don't think moving around the OF means that much, that happens all the time. Same with 3B/1B.

 

I think this year's roster has been comparable to previous teams when it comes to flexibility. Astudillo forced himself onto the roster, and Gonzalez/Adrianza are fulfilling their roles. Arraez is the lone surprise.

 

If Sano had not been out, suddenly your list is much less interesting.

[ashbury]

I'm not knocking Polanco at all. He's a very good overall player. 

 

But he's not a defensive standout.

I'm not really a defender of Polanco's defense. But, it's good enough to let the manager write his name in the batting order every day. At SS, that is no small thing - "good enough" there has to be pretty good, no matter how big the bat. He's figured out how to minimize the liability of his arm, a little bit unconventionally for which he and coaches deserves credit, though I cringe every time he throws.

[Riverbrian]

There are some people on this site that have preached that Twins players should be flexible.)

I’m not aware of anyone making such claims

[Platoon]

Polanco has been a baller at short. I wish people would quit worrying about him as some kind of defensive liability. He's good there, he hits and he's locked up. One of the best SS's(all around) this club has ever employed.

 

Polanco could be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the defensive shift of anyone in MLB. That times have changed is a good deal for him. Leaving him at the traditional SS position would expose both his arm and his lack of range. Since he now plays roughly a third of the time around or on the right side of 2nd base, his defensive flaws are mitigated. His offense is what I always expected. It's what will guarantee him a roster spot in MLB for the foreseeable, and hopefully considerable future.

[Rosterman]

Having this flexibility has worked for (10 injuries and (2) giving someone a rest. They [pretty much have a secondary player at every position if someone would go down, not relying on the minors except in a reserve capacity. Which is good.

[Riverbrian]

I think that's a boon and a detriment.

 

It's boon because you have players who can shuffle the diamond. That's good, injuries happen. You need guys like Kepler and Gonzalez to move around a lot.

 

It's a detriment because it means the Twins don't have many dominant defensive players at a position. Notice that the best outfielder in baseball, Buxton, doesn't move positions because OF COURSE HE DOESN'T. If the Twins had a shortstop of that calibre, it'd be the same thing. Or a purely dominant second baseman, who *may* move over to short on occasion.

 

This is a really good roster and I commend the FO for putting it together but it's more of a "let's make this work through sheer body count that doesn't suck" than an actual dominant defensive alignment.

 

But again, the boon is that sheer dominance fails if a single person falters. Pick your poison.

All 30 have the same detriment. They are combinations of an elite defender or two with guys who hit and play average defense.

 

The Dodgers play Seager exclusively at SS and Turner exclusively at 3B.

 

The Cubs play Baez at SS exclusively this year before that it was Russell while Baez moved around.

 

Having flexibility like the Twins have does not mean you have to have a lack of elite defenders. You can still sign Arenado to play 3B and leave him there while having flexibility elsewhere.

 

It’s not a detriment in any way shape or form.

[Riverbrian]

I was half tempted to accuse Stringer of trolling Brian.

It’s gonna work

[Riverbrian]

I don't think moving around the OF means that much, that happens all the time. Same with 3B/1B.

 

I think this year's roster has been comparable to previous teams when it comes to flexibility. Astudillo forced himself onto the roster, and Gonzalez/Adrianza are fulfilling their roles. Arraez is the lone surprise.

 

If Sano had not been out, suddenly your list is much less interesting.

The roster management this year isn’t even close to years past.

[yarnivek1972]

I don't think moving around the OF means that much, that happens all the time. Same with 3B/1B.

 

I think this year's roster has been comparable to previous teams when it comes to flexibility. Astudillo forced himself onto the roster, and Gonzalez/Adrianza are fulfilling their roles. Arraez is the lone surprise.

 

If Sano had not been out, suddenly your list is much less interesting.

I must have missed all the games where Doug Mientkiewicz played 3b and Corey Koskie played 1b.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm not really a defender of Polanco's defense. But, it's good enough to let the manager write his name in the batting order every day. At SS, that is no small thing - "good enough" there has to be pretty good, no matter how big the bat. He's figured out how to minimize the liability of his arm, a little bit unconventionally for which he and coaches deserves credit, though I cringe every time he throws.

I mean, I guess...? It's kind of like saying "he's in the NFL so he's very good at football".

 

Sure, definitely. I'm not knocking Polanco, he's an MLB shortstop. But he's not particularly good at the defensive side of his craft and, until this year, was actually well below average at it. I'm still skeptical about this year's metrics but, at the very least, I'm glad that he has improved somewhat.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't think moving around the OF means that much, that happens all the time. Same with 3B/1B.

Yikes, no. There's a reason why so few third basemen are in the Hall. It's an underappreciated and quite unique position.

 

Unless you mean that a third baseman can slide to first base, just like a centerfielder can slide to right/left field.

 

But the inverse is certainly not true.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I must have missed all the games where Doug Mientkiewicz played 3b and Corey Koskie played 1b.

2005-11, 3B was played by the likes of Brian Buscher, Tony Batista, LNP, the corpse of Joe Crede, and Danny Valencia. Twins fans were thrilled in 2012 to get the “stellar” play of Trevor Plouffe.

 

Most of that time, Justin Morneau was playing first base (2011 injury shortened). Imagine having Morneau at the hot corner so you could find a suitable filler at first...

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

2005-11, 3B was played by the likes of Brian Buscher, Tony Batista, LNP, the corpse of Joe Crede, and Danny Valencia. Twins fans were thrilled in 2012 to get the “stellar” play of Trevor Plouffe.

Most of that time, Justin Morneau was playing first base (2011 injury shortened). Imagine having Morneau at the hot corner so you could find a suitable filler at first...

Morneau turned into a pretty good first baseman after a few seasons but I never read a single scouting report that even hinted at his ability to play third (and IIRC, he wasn't even highly viewed at first through the minors). Other than a handful of games at catcher and in the outfield, he never played another position other than first base as a professional.

[DocBauer]

All 30 have the same detriment. They are combinations of an elite defender or two with guys who hit and play average defense.

 

The Dodgers play Seager exclusively at SS and Turner exclusively at 3B.

 

The Cubs play Baez at SS exclusively this year before that it was Russell while Baez moved around.

 

Having flexibility like the Twins have does not mean you have to have a lack of elite defenders. You can still sign Arenado to play 3B and leave him there while having flexibility elsewhere.

 

It’s not a detriment in any way shape or form.

And we have a 100% agreement point.

 

I would venture to say we are close to elite at 1B with Cron as well, despite a few errors on his 2019 resume.

 

Personally, despite all the various metrics that try to measure defense, it's still the hardest thing to measure in baseball. For example, if a player at a given position...as we'll use SS as a prime example...makes TREMENDOUS highlight real plays but is inconsistent, how good is he really? If a SS makes all the plays, an occasional really good play, but doesn't flash, is he better or worse?

 

There is a reason most of your lineup is static. There is a reason some guys are bench or rotational players. Again, an example, if Adrianza could hit like Polanco, he'd be penciled in daily.

 

Versatility doesn't mean you just toss some guy out in the field because he has a glove and won't spike himself. It means he can, most days and most plays, provide all the normal plays and contribute in some way offensively.

 

The Twins HAVE a roster built that way.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

And we have a 100% agreement point.

I would venture to say we are close to elite at 1B with Cron as well, despite a few errors on his 2019 resume.

Personally, despite all the various metrics that try to measure defense, it's still the hardest thing to measure in baseball. For example, if a player at a given position...as we'll use SS as a prime example...makes TREMENDOUS highlight real plays but is inconsistent, how good is he really? If a SS makes all the plays, an occasional really good play, but doesn't flash, is he better or worse?

There is a reason most of your lineup is static. There is a reason some guys are bench or rotational players. Again, an example, if Adrianza could hit like Polanco, he'd be penciled in daily.

Versatility doesn't mean you just toss some guy out in the field because he has a glove and won't spike himself. It means he can, most days and most plays, provide all the normal plays and contribute in some way offensively.

The Twins HAVE a roster built that way.

I think it's even more complicated than the bold. Positioning and instincts play a role that we, as viewers focused on the batter and ball off the bat, almost never see unless you're there live to see it unfold without cameras.

 

I call it the "Jim Edmonds effect". Jim was a pretty good centerfielder. Not stellar, but pretty good. I lived in SoCal during his prime seasons. He wasn't awesome defensively, but everyone seemed to think he was.

 

Because the guy would lay himself out for a play and make it look spectacular on a highlight reel. It didn't matter whether he was maybe positioned incorrectly and simply wasn't that fast, his Charlie Hustle effect made all the difference in the world to viewers on TV.

 

But if you were to put, say, Torii Hunter next to Jim Edmonds and watch them both play center, it'd be pretty ****ing clear who was *actually* good and who made plays *look* good within a few innings. Where Edmonds would dive and look spectacular, Hunter would glide in and catch it on his feet. Same ball, one is "spectacular" while the other is "nice catch".

 

And then compare them to a guy like Buxton, who is better than either of them by a considerable margin.

[snepp]

 

2005-11, 3B was played by the likes of Brian Buscher, Tony Batista, LNP, the corpse of Joe Crede, and Danny Valencia. Twins fans were thrilled in 2012 to get the “stellar” play of Trevor Plouffe.

 

Brendan Harris is appalled that you left him out of such an elite club.

 

 

 

Long live the Harrischer!

 

 

/nick

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Morneau turned into a pretty good first baseman after a few seasons but I never read a single scouting report that even hinted at his ability to play third (and IIRC, he wasn't even highly viewed at first through the minors). Other than a handful of games at catcher and in the outfield, he never played another position other than first base as a professional.

exactly - this 2019 team has a special kind of flexibility. One that shouldn’t be downplayed with statements like “the outfield spots are the same” or “first and third are interchangeable”.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

exactly - this 2019 team has a special kind of flexibility. One that shouldn’t be downplayed with statements like “the outfield spots are the same” or “first and third are interchangeable”.

Oh, I misunderstood your point. Yes, this team has amazing flexibility.

 

And I'd never make the statement "all outfield spots are the same" or "third/first are interchangeable".

 

My only point was that flexibility does not equate greatness. The Twins are decent in the field but hardly exceptional. That's what you get with flexibility. 

 

Whereas if you're great defensively, you're likely locked into a few players. Should one or two of them falter, you suddenly become mediocre or worse.

 

Case in point, look at Minnesota and Cleveland. Minnesota has no real stars, Cleveland has 4-5. Minnesota has 25 legit MLB players (probably more like 27-28), Cleveland has about 15.

 

There's a reason why Minnesota is six games up and I suspect that number will begin to grow again as time goes on. Cleveland had injuries, which sucks... but their injuries led them to a record under .500. Minnesota had a slew of injuries and has yet to play under .500 for even a week.

 

If you can lose 3-4 players in two weeks and still play .500 ball, you're going to do okay for yourself.