But for the will to act

[TheLeviathan]

I think it's also worth pointing out that the Oakland Athletics were a playoff team with almost the exact opposite philosophy.  Ditto the Braves.  

 

More than one way to skin a cat.

[nicksaviking]

 

I think it's also worth pointing out that the Oakland Athletics were a playoff team with almost the exact opposite philosophy.  Ditto the Braves.  

 

More than one way to skin a cat.

 

I'm actually in favor of moving prospects for higher end talent this winter.

 

But we can probably all agree the Twins need to stop being the cat.

[Riverbrian]

 

Trading both Span and Revere could have been these moves, but weren't (though I'd much rather have May now than Revere so...?)..  Trading Hicks definitely wasn't.  I thought signing Reed might have been a move like this, too.

 

I certainly want smarter, or at least luckier, trades and signings.

 

Getting something for Lance Lynn at least seems like a mini-steal right now.

 

The Hicks trade is a prime example of doing it wrong. Hicks was dealt from a supposed position of strength (OF) to fill a supposed position of weakness ©. Hicks was depth and insurance... he finally started to show us something in 2015. By removing Hicks off the roster... When Buxton struggled and Sano couldn't find fly balls... options to change your course was removed. Just like that a position of strength was a position of extreme weakness and we are on the waiver wire to find Robbie Grossman.  

 

If Terry Ryan would have thought like David Stearns... He wouldn't have had to trade Aaron Hicks. We could have walked into 2016 With Buxton and Hicks in the same OF along with Rosario and Sano. Sano could have been moved back to 3B quicker with Hicks as an option. We wouldn't have had to be as patient with a struggling Buxton. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

I like how aggressive the Brewers were and I like the example the set.

 

However, I still can't believe that rotation won them 96 games. I think they got lucky in that area and think putting a good but not elite offense around what appeared to be an average at best rotation was a bit reckless and shortsighted.

 

The starting rotation isn't as important as it once was. Starts are getting shorter and the bullpen is coming more and more into play so Stearns went out and put together a killer bullpen to cover an average but not terrible starting rotation.

 

As for defense... They ain't bad but it kind of shows that moving players around for better matchups and better bats can overcome average defense as long as they can make the routine plays. 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

Ok, I get the formula.   In a depressed market go get a solid outfielder at age 32 sign him to a 5 year contract and have him play 10 points better on OPS+ than his career average of 108 and better than any other year save one.

Take a 24 year old guy that just hit 30 homers and had a 126  OPS+  season and start him in the minors.

Trade 4 prospects for a solid outfielder coming off a 120 OPS+ season and have him play to a 1.000 OPS, a  164 OPS+ and likely MVP.   

I really don't know why the Twins didn't sign Cain to a long term deal, start Rosario in AAA and give up Buxton, Kiriloff and Thorpe to get Yelich.

I'm not trying to take credit away from the Brewers but just temper it a little with snark because yeah, they had their share of luck.   

 

They were covered. It wasn't luck in my opinion.

 

If Cain blows up in their face... they still got Santana and Broxton in the minors. It was a no risk move. It's only money if he fails. 

[nicksaviking]

 

The starting rotation isn't as important as it once was. Starts are getting shorter and the bullpen is coming more and more into play so Stearns went out and put together a killer bullpen to cover an average but not terrible starting rotation.

 

As for defense... They ain't bad but it kind of shows that moving players around for better matchups and better bats can overcome average defense as long as they can make the routine plays. 

 

Starers aren't always as important. Still, we found the same four teams in the (real) AL playoffs with the same stud aces as we did last year. I would have bet against the Brewers in any of those matchups.

 

And, yeah saying that I'm fairly confident they'll prove me wrong and win the WS making a mockery of which ever AL rotation ends up facing them.

[USAFChief]

Starers aren't always as important. Still, we found the same four teams in the (real) AL playoffs with the same stud aces as we did last year. I would have bet against the Brewers in any of those matchups.

 

And, yeah saying that I'm fairly confident they'll prove me wrong and win the WS making a mockery of which ever AL rotation ends up facing them.

We would all love to have a dominant rotation, but those guys are hard to find. Not to mention, When I argued long and hard for a push to acquire Verlander 2 years ago, 90 percent of the board was against it.

 

But I see the point as, if you dont have a rotation of Verlanders, you needn't curl up in a ball and cry about it. Find more offense, build a bullpen that is better than your opponant.

 

Do something. Win other ways. Spend, trade, develop. Add talent...be on the other end of the Aaron Hicks trade, where you are acquiring the player with WAY more talent and upside. Take advantage when circumstance puts a Yelich (or a Verlander...or Realmuto) on the market.

[Mike Sixel]

I think it's also worth pointing out that the Oakland Athletics were a playoff team with almost the exact opposite philosophy. Ditto the Braves.

 

More than one way to skin a cat.

Well. The twins also passed on going over the limits in international spending when you could..... Like the Atlanta team did.

 

The issue is that the twins were not great at their chosen strategy, just ok to good.

[Battle ur tail off]

At some point you have to try. Twins really never have. It's always a halfway effort, or a B or C level signing. Or trading away your B prosepcts for C players, etc. 

 

That and the fact they haven't developed hardly any players lately and have traded away all kinds of players that have had success elsewhere makes it very frustrating to be a fan of this team.

 

Just once, I'd like to see them go out and sign a true stud. The best player at their position. Or trade our best prospect or 2 for a real difference maker. 

[nicksaviking]

 

We would all love to have a dominant rotation, but those guys are hard to find. Not to mention, When I argued long and hard for a push to acquire Verlander 2 years ago, 90 percent of the board was against it.

But I see the point as, if you dont have a rotation of Verlanders, you needn't curl up in a ball and cry about it. Find more offense, build a bullpen that is better than your opponant.

Do something. Win other ways. Spend, trade, develop. Add talent...be on the other end of the Aaron Hicks trade, where you are acquiring the player with WAY more talent and upside. Take advantage when circumstance puts a Yelich (or a Verlander...or Realmuto) on the market.

 

I guess what I was getting at is that had the Twins been the Brewers and swung a deal for Yelich last year, I would have been disappointed because I'd have preferred they'd used that equity to get deGrom or Syndergaard instead. They could stack up against Sale, Verlander, Kluber and Severino. I wasn't a fan of Yelich, he always seemed like an under-achiever and didn't have enough power for a corner bat. Clearly I was wrong there.

 

If my team doesn't have a competitive rotation I wouldn't curl up and cry, I'd demand my GM look harder. However, to prove the difficulty of that: I don't think anyone was against a trade deadline move for Verlander two years ago, 90% of the board just said it couldn't be done because he made it pretty clear that he wouldn't waive his no trade clause to come here considering the vastly superior and WS favorite Astros were barely able to convince him to go there.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I like how aggressive the Brewers were and I like the example the set.

 

However, I still can't believe that rotation won them 96 games. I think they got lucky in that area and think putting a good but not elite offense around what appeared to be an average at best rotation was a bit reckless and shortsighted.

I think there was some luck involved, of course, but the rotation outlook wasn't that bad. Chase Anderson was very good in 2017, as was Jimmy Nelson although he went down at season's end with a shoulder injury. (Nelson wound up missing all of 2018, but that wasn't known at the time.) Plus a rising prospect like Freddy Peralta, and they had already shown some ability to coax useful performances out of guys like Davies, Suter, Guerra, etc. (And this year, Chacin, Miley, and Gio Gonzalez.)

 

That's not a rotation on par with Houston or Cleveland or whatever, but it's also not bad enough that you should pass on opportunities like Yelich and Cain. Or you are pretty much going to be waiting until forever to do anything, and who's to say guys like Yelich and Cain will even be available at those prices if/when your rotation looks stronger.

[Tomj14]

 

The Hicks trade is a prime example of doing it wrong. Hicks was dealt from a supposed position of strength (OF) to fill a supposed position of weakness ©. Hicks was depth and insurance... he finally started to show us something in 2015. By removing Hicks off the roster... When Buxton struggled and Sano couldn't find fly balls... options to change your course was removed. Just like that a position of strength was a position of extreme weakness and we are on the waiver wire to find Robbie Grossman.  

 

If Terry Ryan would have thought like David Stearns... He wouldn't have had to trade Aaron Hicks. We could have walked into 2016 With Buxton a

nd Hicks in the same OF along with Rosario and Sano. Sano could have been moved back to 3B quicker with Hicks as an option. We wouldn't have had to be as patient with a struggling Buxton. 

I disagree with saying that trade is the wrong way. They were trading a young outfielder for a 25 year old catcher would looked to be on the brink of breaking out. Hicks has been good but injury prone as a Yankee only averaging 116 games a year. (he is now 29 and has a career war of just over 10) Even in hindsight it hasn't been bad since the Twins got Moya.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I guess what I was getting at is that had the Twins been the Brewers and swung a deal for Yelich last year, I would have been disappointed because I'd have preferred they'd used that equity to get deGrom or Syndergaard instead.

But the Mets weren't selling, at least not at Marlins prices.

 

FWIW, the Brewers did sign a 2.5 WAR SP in Chacin, and they made a Twins-like effort at Darvish too. I don't think they recklessly ignored the rotation, I just think the opportunities weren't necessarily there. Credit to them for not just folding/waiting, and instead they found other areas to improve their 86 win team from last year. (Even if they did benefit from luck to get them up to 96 this year.)

[USAFChief]

I guess what I was getting at is that had the Twins been the Brewers and swung a deal for Yelich last year, I would have been disappointed because I'd have preferred they'd used that equity to get deGrom or Syndergaard instead. They could stack up against Sale, Verlander, Kluber and Severino. I wasn't a fan of Yelich, he always seemed like an under-achiever and didn't have enough power for a corner bat. Clearly I was wrong there.

 

If my team doesn't have a competitive rotation I wouldn't curl up and cry, I'd demand my GM look harder. However, to prove the difficulty of that: I don't think anyone was against a trade deadline move for Verlander two years ago, 90% of the board just said it couldn't be done because he made it pretty clear that he wouldn't waive his no trade clause to come here considering the vastly superior and WS favorite Astros were barely able to convince him to go there.

Not to hijack this thread, but lots of posters were against trying to Verlander. Too old, not that good, too expensive in salary, too expensive in prospects, not the right time...you "go all in when he's the last piece," etc etc etc.

[amjgt]

 

Not to hijack this thread, but lots of posters were against trying to Verlander. Too old, not that good, too expensive in salary, too expensive in prospects, not the right time...you "go all in when he's the last piece," etc etc etc.

 

Yes. That's my memory of the discussion. 

[amjgt]

For those who are bored tonight....

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/27239-go-get-verlander/

 

 

[Riverbrian]

Starers aren't always as important. Still, we found the same four teams in the (real) AL playoffs with the same stud aces as we did last year. I would have bet against the Brewers in any of those matchups.

 

And, yeah saying that I'm fairly confident they'll prove me wrong and win the WS making a mockery of which ever AL rotation ends up facing them.

The Rockies only two scored two runs off of Jeffries. So... so far so good.

[USAFChief]

For those who are bored tonight....

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/27239-go-get-verlander/

I particularly liked the argument that Lance Lynn would be better and cheaper.

[TheLeviathan]

 

For those who are bored tonight....

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/27239-go-get-verlander/

 

Now link the Troy Tulowitski thread.  Most of the same people crowing about that thread will have a plate of crow to eat.

 

When we discuss actions like this people are far too black and white.  They either are gun-shy about every deal or they've never met an "aggressive" move they didn't love.  Well, truth is, they both hvae a pretty damn high failure rate.

[big dog]

 

The Hicks trade is a prime example of doing it wrong. Hicks was dealt from a supposed position of strength (OF) to fill a supposed position of weakness ©. Hicks was depth and insurance... he finally started to show us something in 2015. By removing Hicks off the roster... When Buxton struggled and Sano couldn't find fly balls... options to change your course was removed. Just like that a position of strength was a position of extreme weakness and we are on the waiver wire to find Robbie Grossman.  

 

If Terry Ryan would have thought like David Stearns... He wouldn't have had to trade Aaron Hicks. We could have walked into 2016 With Buxton and Hicks in the same OF along with Rosario and Sano. Sano could have been moved back to 3B quicker with Hicks as an option. We wouldn't have had to be as patient with a struggling Buxton. 

Yes, I don't think there was a single thing about the Hicks trade that was doing it right.  We not only traded the wrong player, we traded him for an unbelievably worse player.  Bad idea, worse execution.

 

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

[Riverbrian]

 

I disagree with saying that trade is the wrong way. They were trading a young outfielder for a 25 year old catcher would looked to be on the brink of breaking out. Hicks has been good but injury prone as a Yankee only averaging 116 games a year. (he is now 29 and has a career war of just over 10) Even in hindsight it hasn't been bad since the Twins got Moya.

 

I get that... but my point was that they blew their thick in the OF to fill a catcher hole. Which basically left them thin everywhere.

 

The Brewers kept that OF thick and are playing Erik Kratz right now at the Catcher position.  

 

Outfielders consistently out produce catchers at the plate. Murphy had the potential to hit 10 home runs? Hicks has 30-30 potential.

 

I was against the trade the moment it was announced. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

At some point you have to try. Twins really never have. It's always a halfway effort, or a B or C level signing. Or trading away your B prosepcts for C players, etc. 

 

That and the fact they haven't developed hardly any players lately and have traded away all kinds of players that have had success elsewhere makes it very frustrating to be a fan of this team.

 

Just once, I'd like to see them go out and sign a true stud. The best player at their position. Or trade our best prospect or 2 for a real difference maker. 

 

Where are our Superstars? 

 

We don't have them because we stopped at Trevor Plouffe and said that's good enough. 

[Riverbrian]

 

I think there was some luck involved, of course, but the rotation outlook wasn't that bad. Chase Anderson was very good in 2017, as was Jimmy Nelson although he went down at season's end with a shoulder injury. (Nelson wound up missing all of 2018, but that wasn't known at the time.) Plus a rising prospect like Freddy Peralta, and they had already shown some ability to coax useful performances out of guys like Davies, Suter, Guerra, etc. (And this year, Chacin, Miley, and Gio Gonzalez.)

That's not a rotation on par with Houston or Cleveland or whatever, but it's also not bad enough that you should pass on opportunities like Yelich and Cain. Or you are pretty much going to be waiting until forever to do anything, and who's to say guys like Yelich and Cain will even be available at those prices if/when your rotation looks stronger.

 

And... The Brewers have most of the team coming back, payroll space and trade chips to work with.

 

They can take a bigger swing at starting pitching this off season and be even stronger next year. 

 

Stearns is making that team bullet proof. They will be back. They can survive injuries and some poor performance.   

[old nurse]

 

We would all love to have a dominant rotation, but those guys are hard to find. Not to mention, When I argued long and hard for a push to acquire Verlander 2 years ago, 90 percent of the board was against it.

But I see the point as, if you dont have a rotation of Verlanders, you needn't curl up in a ball and cry about it. Find more offense, build a bullpen that is better than your opponant.

Do something. Win other ways. Spend, trade, develop. Add talent...be on the other end of the Aaron Hicks trade, where you are acquiring the player with WAY more talent and upside. Take advantage when circumstance puts a Yelich (or a Verlander...or Realmuto) on the market.

A lot of the board said that Verlander had a no trade contract and no evidence that he would willingly go to the Twins.

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

A lot of the board said that Verlander had a no trade contract and no evidence that he would willingly go to the Twins.

 

But we don't KNOW that.....and the Twins could have enticed him with money.

 

But the point is, when did they ever do this, ever? Couldn't trade Hicks for a great pitcher either....because someday he'd be Willie Mays or something.....It's a pattern of aiming low, over and over and over.

[ewen21]

 

Agreed. They didn't sit around and hope on prospects.... Big fan.

They'd trade prospects to make the team better now--something the Twins never did during our mini "run" in the 2000s

[old nurse]

 

But we don't KNOW that.....and the Twins could have enticed him with money.

 

But the point is, when did they ever do this, ever? Couldn't trade Hicks for a great pitcher either....because someday he'd be Willie Mays or something.....It's a pattern of aiming low, over and over and over.

In regards to Verlander, how many times and the reality doesn't set in for people?

 

Luis Castillo says hello. Scott Tyler was a second round pick.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Yep. "Waiting for Buxton" sounds more and more like the title of a sad ESPN 30-for-30 documentary.

 

I think not calling Buxton up this September was a nice move by Falvine and it should set the tone moving forward. At this point the Twins should be penciling in Cave and Rosario in the OF, and should be looking hard at making moves for another starting OF to join them next year.

It’s a comedy and hilariously tragic

[Dantes929]

 

In the late 80s and early 90s they signed Jack Morris to the largest FA contract ever, and signed Don Baylor (and more).......they didn't shop the bargain bin in 87......there is no coincidence that they did well that year (lucky to win it all, sure).

 

And sure, the Brewers had good fortune this year.....but they partly made that happen by not sitting around and waiting on prospects. 

Sorry.  They absolutely shopped the bargain bin in 87.   Don Bayolor was 38 years old coming off a couple so so seasons and the epitome of aging vet hoping he had a little left.   One swing the entire year probably changed the hindsight view of him.     Odorizzi and Lynn look like Koufax and Kershaw compared to 42 year old Carlton and 42 year old Niekro.    Yeah, they spent money on Morris but he was 36 and coming off seasons of 21-32 with ERAs of 4.51 and 4.86.   Do you really think if TD was around at that time everyone would be cheering the move before the season began.   .    Again.   More a case of players performing that could very easily have gone the other way.    My motive here isn't to say the Twins are doing great.  They are obviously not at the moment.  Its more echoing that there are different ways to have success.   For every Brewers story there are several similar that have failed.   For every several teams that have been built similar to the Twins and failed there have been some that have done well.   ie A's and Braves.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sorry.  They absolutely shopped the bargain bin in 87.   Don Bayolor was 38 years old coming off a couple so so seasons and the epitome of aging vet hoping he had a little left.   One swing the entire year probably changed the hindsight view of him.     Odorizzi and Lynn look like Koufax and Kershaw compared to 42 year old Carlton and 42 year old Niekro.    Yeah, they spent money on Morris but he was 36 and coming off seasons of 21-32 with ERAs of 4.51 and 4.86.   Do you really think if TD was around at that time everyone would be cheering the move before the season began.   .    Again.   More a case of players performing that could very easily have gone the other way.    My motive here isn't to say the Twins are doing great.  They are obviously not at the moment.  Its more echoing that there are different ways to have success.   For every Brewers story there are several similar that have failed.   For every several teams that have been built similar to the Twins and failed there have been some that have done well.   ie A's and Braves.

 

Some people just don't want the billionaires to spend on free agents, or trade prospects for multi year veterans. Many of those have worked for the Twins the last 2 decades. It has led to nothing of value at all, in terms of the playoffs for a reason.

 

The Braves spent big on the international front, the twins refused. For every Braves, there are the Pirates and Twins....and does anyone think the Braves are going to sit around and add nothing much this off season? I don't.