SI on Joe Mauer

[Vanimal46]

Bad player personnel decisions hurt the Twins. Spending the money they had on players like Ricky Nolasco, Tsuyoshi Noshioka, Jamey Carroll, Mike Pelfrey, etc.

 

The Twins buried their heads in the sand continuing to operate as they had for decades, not noticing that the rest of the league was changing the definition of what quality player meant.

Bad player personnel decisions + no contributions from draft picks = all of the 90+ loss seasons we sat through.

[USAFChief]

 

you're right. great post. good to see a rebuttal of another character attack on a high character player and person.

There was no character attack in the post he rebutted.

 

 

[USAFChief]

 

Ah, I forgot the timeline on that contract, which is where the absurdity really lays.

 

The contract was signed at the beginning of the 2010 season but didn't kick in until 2012, at which point Howard turned into a pumpkin. I forgot it was an extension signed well in advance of its terms (I knew it was an extension, didn't remember it was nearly two full years before it kicked in).

Comparing Mauer to Pujols is a huge stretch, too.

 

Pujols had put up 8 seasons with an OPS over 1.000, and his other three were over .900, when he signed that deal.

 

Crawford, and especially Ellsbury, were pretty good rebuttals, though, I'll give you that.

[gunnarthor]

 

Comparing Mauer to Pujols is a huge stretch, too.

 

Pujols had put up 8 seasons with an OPS over 1.000, and his other three were over .900, when he signed that deal.

 

Crawford, and especially Ellsbury, were pretty good rebuttals, though, I'll give you that.

This post is a tangent and not really on-point.

 

That said, Pujols put those numbers up in the NL. The two leagues were miles apart in talent, esp in the mid 2000s.  Since 2012, when Pulojs came to the AL, Mauer has been the better player. 

 

Admittedly, because Pujols was three years older than Mauer, it's not that fair a comparison but ... what the hell. Pujols has been worse with the Angels than Mauer has been with us.

[jimmer]

 

This post is a tangent and not really on-point.

 

That said, Pujols put those numbers up in the NL. The two leagues were miles apart in talent, esp in the mid 2000s.  Since 2012, when Pulojs came to the AL, Mauer has been the better player. 

 

Admittedly, because Pujols was three years older than Mauer, it's not that fair a comparison but ... what the hell. Pujols has been worse with the Angels than Mauer has been with us.

I am a fan of both players (More Pujols than Mauer), but Pujols is a slam dunk, no doubt, 1st ballot, elite level HOFer.  If he had played his whole career in the AL, he would have dominated like he did in the NL.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Oh, I think there's room for some questioning of Mauer's contract.

 

The article itself says fans "would have burned down Target Field" had the Twins not retained him.

 

To think that Mauer didn't know that, and take advantage of his 2009 season to extract more from the Twins than he was worth in pure baseball terms, and more than he would have gotten from another team, is pretty questionable.

 

I do agree it didn't hamper ownership much, if any, payroll wise. Nor do I begrudge Mauer much for getting every penny he could.

 

But let's not pretend he didn't do exactly that. He parlayed a unique situation and exceptional timing into an extremely player friendly contract. One that he hasn't come close to living up to, regardless if you believe that's entirely due to injury or not.

 

I think if you're going to blame the contract, you need to put that solely on the feet of Ryan who punted on negotiating it early. There's no reason they had to wait till 2010. I don't get the impression that Mauer ever wanted to take a hometown discount, but by waiting until 2010 to negotiate the contract, we were forced to pay top dollar with no leverage.  I think that might have come into play a bit when the Twins were competitive in 2010, but yeah, I tend to agree with others that his contract wasn't the issue this team was not competitive. They had money to spend, and they didn't spend it. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Comparing Mauer to Pujols is a huge stretch, too.

 

Pujols had put up 8 seasons with an OPS over 1.000, and his other three were over .900, when he signed that deal.

 

Crawford, and especially Ellsbury, were pretty good rebuttals, though, I'll give you that.

I included Pujols mostly for a monetary and age comparison, not performance level. Pujols was pretty obviously the better player.

[jimmer]

 

I think if you're going to blame the contract, you need to put that solely on the feet of Ryan who punted on negotiating it early. There's no reason they had to wait till 2010. I don't get the impression that Mauer ever wanted to take a hometown discount, but by waiting until 2010 to negotiate the contract, we were forced to pay top dollar with no leverage.  I think that might have come into play a bit when the Twins were competitive in 2010, but yeah, I tend to agree with others that his contract wasn't the issue this team was not competitive. They had money to spend, and they didn't spend it. 

I think if Mauer had still won his 3rd batting title in 2009, but hit for less power (as he had most of his season), he still would have gotten a huge contract.  Probably the same one.

 

And Mauer did end up producing 4.5 WAR or higher in three of the four seasons following the signing of his contract (2010, 2012, 2013).  His wRC in those seasons were 135 138, 143 (which is great for any position player, even more so for catchers).

 

Then the concussion happened in the 2nd half of 2013, and THAT was the start of the big decline.  Not him slacking off, not him being content with signing the contract, no him stopping to care.  The decline started with the concussion that made him move positions.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I think if Mauer had still won his 3rd batting title in 2009, but hit for less power (as he had most of his season), he still would have gotten a huge contract.  Probably the same one.

I'm more getting at the consternation among Twins fans that Mauer wasn't locked up prior to the 2009 season. He was already deserving of a big contract at that point. Had that happened, said contract would likely not have been 180M+... The Twins also could have given him more money up front those years in exchange for less on the back end... Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Mauer said no. Who knows. But Ryan was always averse to those types of things. He put that off far more than he should have. 

 

I'm simply saying that if the contract was that much of a problem, let's remember that it didn't have to happen in the spring of 2010. 

[jimmer]

 

I'm more getting at the consternation among Twins fans that Mauer wasn't locked up prior to the 2009 season. He was already deserving of a big contract at that point. Had that happened, said contract would likely not have been 180M+... The Twins also could have given him more money up front those years in exchange for less on the back end... Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Mauer said no. Who knows. But Ryan was always averse to those types of things. He put that off far more than he should have. 

 

I'm simply saying that if the contract was that much of a problem, let's remember that it didn't have to happen in the spring of 2010. 

Well, remember, Ryan did do a four year extension in 2007 covering 3 years of Mauer's free agency years (and Mauer was way underpaid for what he produced, where's the outrage?! :-)).  But yeah, could have been longer and it likely would have been for less.

 

Edit: Only one FA year bought out, thanks Brock.

 

Point still stands.  I agree with Brock, if Ryan had been able to get him to sign a longer contract in 2007, it would have been for less than the big one he signed with Smith.  Not sure how much though.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, remember, Ryan did do a four year extension in 2007 covering 3 years of Mauer's free agency years (and Mauer was way underpaid for what he produced, where's the outrage?! :-)).  But yeah, could have been longer and it likely would have been for less.

I'm pretty sure Ryan's deal only bought out one FA season.

 

2004 + six seasons = 2010 free agent, right?

[yarnivek1972]

I think if you're going to blame the contract, you need to put that solely on the feet of Ryan who punted on negotiating it early. There's no reason they had to wait till 2010. I don't get the impression that Mauer ever wanted to take a hometown discount, but by waiting until 2010 to negotiate the contract, we were forced to pay top dollar with no leverage. I think that might have come into play a bit when the Twins were competitive in 2010, but yeah, I tend to agree with others that his contract wasn't the issue this team was not competitive. They had money to spend, and they didn't spend it.

They didn’t spend it WELL. Most years they probably spent pretty close to what the budget (eg Pohlad) allowed.

[Ex-Iowegian]

SI has a chance to write a decent article on Mauer, and the possibility of this being his last year. Instead, they turned it into the same old tired tripe that has been hashed around here since the ink dried on his contract. Gleeman was right on.. some folks just enjoy being "mad".

 

[jimmer]

 

I'm pretty sure Ryan's deal only bought out one FA season.

 

2004 + six seasons = 2010 free agent, right?

'http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2762203'

 

'The contract takes the Twins through Mauer's first year of free
agency.'

 

You are right.  Thanks for the correction.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2762203

 

'http://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2762203'

Just skimmed but the first article mentions arbitration, not free agency. So the Twins could have controlled Mauer but they would have gone year-to-year in arb.

[jimmer]

 

Just skimmed but the first article mentions arbitration, not free agency. So the Twins could have controlled Mauer but they would have gone year-to-year in arb.

I meant to quote the article link and the paragraph that showed you were right and I was wrong (as opposed to giving the article link twice like I accidentally did) I went right back and fixed it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Got it. No problem.

[Fritzderkat]

For what it's worth, Mauer's .306 career batting average stands fifth-highest among any catchers with more than 5,000 at bats in MLB history: Cochrane, Dickey, Lombardi, Piazza. then Mauer. I would think that ought to be worth something.

He is also one of only five AL catchers in the past 50 years to be named MVP. Johnny Bench was the last one to win it in the National League, 1970.

Yogi Berra, whose RBI and HR totals were prodigious, no doubt, won the AL award three times. He is widely considered the best catcher of all time. His career batting average is .285,

As for Mauer's contract, it is my opinion there are a lot of people in America who make a lot more money than they're worth. Same the world over. 

[gunnarthor]

 

I am a fan of both players (More Pujols than Mauer), but Pujols is a slam dunk, no doubt, 1st ballot, elite level HOFer.  If he had played his whole career in the AL, he would have dominated like he did in the NL.

No question. His numbers wouldn't have been as good in the AL but he would have been a first ballot HOFer. But it's still fun to note the comparison since 2012.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Not when he signed the contract he didn't hit 58 bombs. He didn't hit over 40.  He also didn't OPS in the 900s or higher or finish top 5 in MVP like you claimed.

 

Not when he signed the contract he didn't hit 58 bombs. He didn't hit over 40.  He also didn't OPS in the 900s or higher or finish top 5 in MVP like you claimed.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/howarry01.shtml

 

Before the contract, which is what got paid for right? Argue all you want, when Howard signed that deal in 2010, he was a flat out bopper. Did he suck after? - YEP!!

[jimmer]

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/howarry01.shtml

 

Before the contract, which is what got paid for right? Argue all you want, when Howard signed that deal in 2010, he was a flat out bopper. Did he suck after? - YEP!!

He signed in 2010, and had a 1.0 fWAR in 2010.  1.6 fWAR in 2011...and worse as it went.  He hit HRs, yes, but there more to offense, and the game overall, than HR.

 

And, again, when Brock said what he said, he said when Howard signed he wasn't a premier player any more (not that he hadn't been before). 1.0 fWAR the year he signed. 30 HR or not, not a premier player.

[USAFChief]

 

He said when Howard signed the contract.  Look from 2010 on (when he signed the contract).  Didn't OPS above .850s, didn't hit the HRs you mention, wasn't top 5ing in MVP.

If only teams could know in advance what stats their players would put up when they sign them to long term (8 yr) high dollar ($184M) contracts, amiright?

[ken]

SI has a chance to write a decent article on Mauer, and the possibility of this being his last year. Instead, they turned it into the same old tired tripe that has been hashed around here since the ink dried on his contract. Gleeman was right on.. some folks just enjoy being "mad".

So are you mad they didn't do a fluff article on Mauer? Reporting both sides of a story that doesn't get national attention seems like a fair approach.

[Dantes929]

 

For what it's worth, Mauer's .306 career batting average stands fifth-highest among any catchers with more than 5,000 at bats in MLB history: Cochrane, Dickey, Lombardi, Piazza. then Mauer. I would think that ought to be worth something.

He is also one of only five AL catchers in the past 50 years to be named MVP. Johnny Bench was the last one to win it in the National League, 1970.

Yogi Berra, whose RBI and HR totals were prodigious, no doubt, won the AL award three times. He is widely considered the best catcher of all time. His career batting average is .285,

As for Mauer's contract, it is my opinion there are a lot of people in America who make a lot more money than they're worth. Same the world over. 

For what its worth, while Mauer was a catcher pre concussion his career batting average was .320 which puts him even with Cochran and ahead of everyone else.

[ND-Fan]

If Mauer had gone to New York or even Boston his numbers would have been even better than hitting in MN. In New York especially the new ball park is much smaller than even than the dome would have produced more home runs for Mauer. Boston would have produced more hits for him with green monster. Also i think his career would have been longer there too because they would have rested him more wouldn't have taken beating he got catching for Mn early in his career. Also catching for those clubs he would have been catching better pitching which might have reduced number of fall tips he took over the years. Finally i believe if you add up what he has been paid and what he has produced as player over length of his career he has produced what he has been paid only he was greatly underpaid at the begining and last couple of years he been overpaid. I also believe if he had played for Boston or New York he would be considered first ballot hall of fame player but because he played in MN he will have hard time getting into the hall of fame. He is one of the top catchers in his era of baseball and after recovering from catching he has become good defensive first baseman and still slightly above average major league hitter for average and getting on base but lacks the power usually wanted from first base. The average is down hitting but i believe in last several years overall batting averages have declined with the changes in baseball from how pitchers are used, how teams have changed defensively with shifts and way they pitch to make there shifts more effective. MN should have been greatful to see home grown talent play everyday at home that had elite career in the majors.

[bighat]

I can see being displeased with Joe's play from time to time. But why would a Twins fan HATE him?

 

There's a weird dynamic when it comes to sports. People who hate Joe because they think he's overpayed are the same people who rant "I payed for this stadium!" and somehow think they've had a large chunk of money personally stolen from them by the team. These folks act like players or teams have taken a sizeable amount of hard-earned money directly from their bank accounts, forcing them into hard times. They imagine their personal fortunes have been used frivolously - without their consent - on things like fancy gold beer taps and a locker room nail salon.

 

Everyone in Hennepin County payed the same amount on sales tax to get that stadium built. Everyone. The university students, the minority communities, the small business owners and even the old ladies shopping at Bachmann's. You don't hear these people ranting about the stadium, or acting like Joe Mauer stole their grandkids' college funds. But some people do: they just can't get over the money issue and will always be looking for ways to hate on athletes, actors, and the like.

 

If you're jealous of an MLB salary, learn how to hit a fastball. Otherwise shut up and enjoy the game.

[Twodogs]

Whoa, before Mauer signed that contract, he was midway through a hall of fame career. Had he not gotten those concussions and played most of his whole career at Catcher he would be a hall of famer. What hall of famers out there didn't deserve their contracts?? It's ridiculous, had Mauer jumped ship and took the money from some other organization such as the Yankees he probably would have had to move his whole family from all of the threats all of the idiots around here would have said.

[KGB]

 

If Mauer had gone to New York or even Boston his numbers would have been even better than hitting in MN. In New York especially the new ball park is much smaller than even than the dome would have produced more home runs for Mauer. Boston would have produced more hits for him with green monster. Also i think his career would have been longer there too because they would have rested him more wouldn't have taken beating he got catching for Mn early in his career. Also catching for those clubs he would have been catching better pitching which might have reduced number of fall tips he took over the years. Finally i believe if you add up what he has been paid and what he has produced as player over length of his career he has produced what he has been paid only he was greatly underpaid at the begining and last couple of years he been overpaid. I also believe if he had played for Boston or New York he would be considered first ballot hall of fame player but because he played in MN he will have hard time getting into the hall of fame. He is one of the top catchers in his era of baseball and after recovering from catching he has become good defensive first baseman and still slightly above average major league hitter for average and getting on base but lacks the power usually wanted from first base. The average is down hitting but i believe in last several years overall batting averages have declined with the changes in baseball from how pitchers are used, how teams have changed defensively with shifts and way they pitch to make there shifts more effective. MN should have been greatful to see home grown talent play everyday at home that had elite career in the majors.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=mauerjo01&t=b&year=Career

 

The number would disagree with you - In Fenway a .255 BA (157 PA) and in Yankee Stadium a .286 BA (145 PA)

[Twodogs]

If Mauer had gone to New York or even Boston his numbers would have been even better than hitting in MN. In New York especially the new ball park is much smaller than even than the dome would have produced more home runs for Mauer. Boston would have produced more hits for him with green monster. Also i think his career would have been longer there too because they would have rested him more wouldn't have taken beating he got catching for Mn early in his career. Also catching for those clubs he would have been catching better pitching which might have reduced number of fall tips he took over the years. Finally i believe if you add up what he has been paid and what he has produced as player over length of his career he has produced what he has been paid only he was greatly underpaid at the begining and last couple of years he been overpaid. I also believe if he had played for Boston or New York he would be considered first ballot hall of fame player but because he played in MN he will have hard time getting into the hall of fame. He is one of the top catchers in his era of baseball and after recovering from catching he has become good defensive first baseman and still slightly above average major league hitter for average and getting on base but lacks the power usually wanted from first base. The average is down hitting but i believe in last several years overall batting averages have declined with the changes in baseball from how pitchers are used, how teams have changed defensively with shifts and way they pitch to make there shifts more effective. MN should have been greatful to see home grown talent play everyday at home that had elite career in the majors.

It's a freak accident, you can't predict if he was here or there and you can't predict how one person will be affected by it as opposed to another. Gimenez got a concussion from a foul tip last week but he was back playing already, so his body just didn't react the same way Joe's did. Can't compare.

[Twodogs]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=mauerjo01&t=b&year=Career

 

The number would disagree with you - In Fenway a .255 BA (157 PA) and in Yankee Stadium a .286 BA (145 PA)

Well he was facing Chris Sale and Aroldis Chapman when he went to those stadiums, had he been playing for them he would have been facing Twins pitching??