Let's talk about Castro....

[DaveW]

This signing was lauded by a lot this off season, but at this point it looks like a disaster that we are going to be stuck with for another 2 years. My issue wasn't signing him, as much as it was giving him 3 years.

 

Not much of a hitter.

No arm.

Lots and lots of passed balls.

 

I'm no expert on pitch framing, but last I checked the Twins staff wasn't exactly leading the league in strike outs as well.

 

All of that is to say:

 

At this point you look to unload him in the offseason, right?

 

Go with Ramos even!

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Overrated. Teams run at will on him. Tonight he couldn't snap his throw and had to cock the arm to get velocity down to second, which takes too much time. His last throw out stealing second was last week, when the runner slid into the dirt a foot short and didn't even get to the bag.

[Obsvr]

MLB Network had a great profile on his pitch framing.  Was interesting to see how subtle it is.  That sai, he does leave a lot to be desired.  The passed balls are getting irritating.

[SwainZag]

I guess I don't know what people expected.  His bat here is better than it's been with Houston since 2013.  His CS% is above his career average and his passed balls per inning are going to be lower than they have since 2012.  This framing has been talked about though I'm not an expert there.  Catchers are a rare commodity.

[Otto von Ballpark]

What else could we have done at the catcher position?

[Danchat]

Just taking a look at the stats, Castro is a top 10 pitch framer (according to Baseball Prospectus), slightly below average offensively (measured by OPS), a little below average catching runners (4% improvement on Suzuki) and average for PB (Gimenez has 4 more PB in less attempts, he's a bigger problem. Suzuki's even worse).

 

What else could we have done at the catcher position?

 

The only other move at C I could see would have been Welington Castillo. He's been great offensively and solid defensively, though a big step down as a pitch framer.

 

Suzuki has been great offensively, but his defensive deficiencies are still there. I prefer Castro to him. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

What else could we have done at the catcher position?

Don't know. Stuart Turner? JRM?

 

Catching is hard to quantify but good defensive catchers don't seem hard to find. Castro's best hitting comes in low leverage or 16-0 games. Tonight he looked pretty mediocre, in my opinion. He has his good moments too.

[jsteve96]

nooo, gotta keep him around. He is hitting alright. He should split time with Garver next season. The trade I'm hoping for is for a good starting pitcher like Marcus Stroman. right now the system is the strongest its been since Buck and Sano were in the minors. The new group of Baddoo, Javier, Gordon, kiriloff, Miranda are going to start jumping on some prospect lists. I'd say its a good time to move prospects like Gordon/Stewart/Jorge/Kiriloff and try to get a big arm like stroman. The only reason to keep Gordon would be if we plan on trading Dozier instead of extending him. Polanco is gonna have that SS job down for awhile.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Stroman isn't a bad get. Problem is that you only get him for 2 more expensive years. I guess if I could get him for the right price, I'd do it... just not sure what that price is. I doubt the Jays would ship him off for a Stewart/Jorge package.

[Major League Ready]

I am really tired of the past balls because they can be so costly.  However, what's the point of complaining when there really was not a reasonable alternative that would have likely been more productive.. I wanted to trade for Kershaw and Kluber too but we don't have Brain Duensing anymore. 

 

 

[Gene Larkin Fan Club]

Maybe you should start a new thread?

[REPETE]

Anyone not named Posey, Perez, or Molina equals "interchangeable".  Some might hit better, some may call a better game, and some may throw out runners, but they're only going to do one of these three, and we'll be pining for the days we had a catcher that did one of the other two.

[Vanimal46]

 

What else could we have done at the catcher position?

 

Re-sign Suzuki?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Anyone not named Posey, Perez, or Molina equals "interchangeable".  Some might hit better, some may call a better game, and some may throw out runners, but they're only going to do one of these three, and we'll be pining for the days we had a catcher that did one of the other two.

 

Actually, at least 12 catchers will put up more than 2 fWAR this year....so it's more like 10 or so that are good or better, 5 or so that are meh, and the rest. Unfortunately, Castro is in the rest category (though fWAR does not yet include framing).

 

There weren't many good options. Hopefully, Garver will hit like he has in the minors, and be ok on defense, and he'll be that guy that gives them a top 10ish catcher. We'll see if he's even given the chance.

[alarp33]

 

Actually, at least 12 catchers will put up more than 2 fWAR this year....so it's more like 10 or so that are good or better, 5 or so that are meh, and the rest. Unfortunately, Castro is in the rest category (though fWAR does not yet include framing).

 

There weren't many good options. Hopefully, Garver will hit like he has in the minors, and be ok on defense, and he'll be that guy that gives them a top 10ish catcher. We'll see if he's even given the chance.

 

11th in bWAR... +0.6 away from 6th, -0.6 away from being 20th

 

I would agree most are interchangeable... and the Twins are not a team right now that needs major offense from C

[Mike Sixel]

 

11th in bWAR... +0.6 away from 6th, -0.6 away from being 20th

 

I would agree most are interchangeable... and the Twins are not a team right now that needs major offense from C

 

thanks, I was hoping someone would look there also!

 

He's mediocre, excluding framing. For that price, that's what you should probably expect. The issue is, he is pretty much the one thing this FO did (player wise), which is a bit disappointing to me.

[USAFChief]

Castro's OPS is .703 (87 OPS+)

 

Polanco's OPS is .710 (87 OPS+).

 

 

[alarp33]

 

thanks, I was hoping someone would look there also!

 

He's mediocre, excluding framing. For that price, that's what you should probably expect. The issue is, he is pretty much the one thing this FO did (player wise), which is a bit disappointing to me.

 

The Twins are 8th in the league in runs scored. They didn't need an offensive threat at C, they needed to stabilize their defense, and I think Castro has done that. 

 

I'm not sure how much this number actually means, but for what its worth, Castros "Catcher ERA" is almost a run and a half lower than Gimenez's.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

Castro's OPS is .703 (87 OPS+)

 

Polanco's OPS is .710 (87 OPS+).

And Polanco's been a disappointment too, and his offensive performance was problematic for 4 months.

[alarp33]

 

And Polanco's been a disappointment too, and his offensive performance was problematic for 4 months.

 

.239 BABIP in those 4 months... 

[Otto von Ballpark]

.239 BABIP in those 4 months...

Sure. But, just saying the Polanco's overall 2017 numbers shouldn't really be used as any kind of benchmark for grading other players.

 

Not that I think Castro's performance is problematic, especially if we are willing to pinch hit/run for him as needed.

[spinowner]

 

Hopefully, Garver will hit like he has in the minors, and be ok on defense, and he'll be that guy that gives them a top 10ish catcher. We'll see if he's even given the chance.

Given the worldwide shortage of outstanding catchers I'm sure he'll get a chance. With the Twins' young batting order (hopefully) coming into its own we may not need much offense from our catcher. A good-hitting catcher is better than a bad-hitting catcher but a good catcher who can't hit is better than a good hitter who can't catch.

Edited to add: We were spoiled when we had an excellent catcher who was an excellent hitter. There have been very few of those, and some teams have never had one in their entire existence.

[mickeymental]

why oh why can't the twins have a hall of famer at every position? stick a fork in the ghost of calvin griffith.

[mikelink45]

Looks like you started a nice controversial thread.  Thanks.  I am not a Castro fan and I think Garver should work in next year, but I need to ask about Giminez too - I think the team really likes him.  

 

As a pitch frame skeptic I am more interested in passed balls, caught stealing and most important - calling a game.  No data to study the last element.  

 

His WAR on baseball Reference puts him in with a lot of catchers.  That said a Garver and Castro platoon would be fine with me. 

[Dantes929]

 

Just taking a look at the stats, Castro is a top 10 pitch framer (according to Baseball Prospectus), slightly below average offensively (measured by OPS), a little below average catching runners (4% improvement on Suzuki) and average for PB (Gimenez has 4 more PB in less attempts, he's a bigger problem. Suzuki's even worse).

 

The only other move at C I could see would have been Welington Castillo. He's been great offensively and solid defensively, though a big step down as a pitch framer.

 

Suzuki has been great offensively, but his defensive deficiencies are still there. I prefer Castro to him. 

Only stats I can find is that Castro used to be in the top 10 but not in 2017.  Can you provide the link please?

[DaveW]

 

why oh why can't the twins have a hall of famer at every position? stick a fork in the ghost of calvin griffith.

Never said that.

Winning teams should always be looking to upgrade their mediocre positions/players though. It's what winning teams do.

[howieramone2]

 

This signing was lauded by a lot this off season, but at this point it looks like a disaster that we are going to be stuck with for another 2 years. My issue wasn't signing him, as much as it was giving him 3 years.

Not much of a hitter.
No arm.
Lots and lots of passed balls.

I'm no expert on pitch framing, but last I checked the Twins staff wasn't exactly leading the league in strike outs as well.

All of that is to say:

At this point you look to unload him in the offseason, right?

Go with Ramos even!

Both of our catchers have been very good this year. When advanced metrics truly become advanced, a component for team chemistry and individual leadership will be added.

[spinowner]

 

Winning teams should always be looking to upgrade their mediocre positions/players though. It's what winning teams do.

Every team does this. It's just that some have learned to guess better than others.

[spinowner]

 

 

 I am interested in passed balls, caught stealing and most important - calling a game.  No data to study the last element.  

Add to that knowing how to help out pitchers whose mechanics may be out of whack. It's been said that a good catcher is like a manager on the field. I'll expand that to say that a very good catcher is like a pitching coach on the field. No data for that either.

 

Edited to add: Dave Duncan is a former catcher who worked for many years as a pitching coach.

[mickeymental]

 

Winning teams should always be looking to upgrade their mediocre positions/players though. It's what winning teams do.

they traded for jrm, got rid of suzuki, signed castro, brought up garver. not up to the unrealistic expectations of some. not everything works out but it does seem like trying. probably shoulda traded dozier for posey!