ESPN: Dozier Ranked 9th-Best 2B in Baseball

[Riverbrian]

 

Dozier's poor defense doesn't help his ranking

 

Dozier is not "poor defense". 

 

Not even close.

 

He can play.

[CiabanItReal]

 

The Dodgers are also looking for RH power, and LeMahieu is lacking the power part.

 

Meanwhile Cano, Murphy and Kipnis are lacking the right handed part.

I think their just looking for a RH hitting 2nd basemen, not specifically one with power. In fact I think they would prefer one with a high OBP over one with power at this point.

[Seth Stohs]

BRIAN DOZIER RANKED 8TH ON MLB NETWORK’S TOP 10 SECOND BASEMEN RIGHT NOW!

 

January 16, 2017 – Minnesota Twins second baseman Brian Dozier was ranked 8th on MLB Network’s Top 10 Second Basemen Right Now! program yesterday. Dozier finished one spot ahead of the Rays’ Logan Forsythe and one spot behind the Rockies’ DJ LeMahieu.

 

Taking into account player performance over several seasons with an emphasis on 2016, a number of offensive and defensive metric, both advanced and traditional, and projected performance for the upcoming season, MLB Network’s Top 10 Right Now! series ranks the top players at each position heading into the 2017 season.

 

An embeddable video recap of Dozier’s ranking, along with the complete ranking, listed below, can be seen here:

 

Top 10 Second Basemen Right Now!

1.    Jose Altuve, Houston Astros
2.    Robinson Cano, Seattle Mariners
3.    Daniel Murphy, Washington Nationals
4.    Dustin Pedroia, Boston Red Sox
5.    Ian Kinsler, Detroit Tigers
6.    Jason Kipnis, Cleveland Indians
7.    DJ LeMahieu, Colorado Rockies
8.    Brian Dozier, Minnesota Twins
9.    Logan Forsythe, Tampa Bay Rays
10.  Ben Zobrist, Chicago Cubs

 

Now in its seventh season, MLB Network’s Top 10 Right Now! series is hosted by Brian Kenny with contributing analysis from MLB Network on-air personalities, Boston Red Sox senior advisor of baseball operations and renowned sabermetrician Bill James, President of SABR Vince Gennaro and MLB.com analyst Mike Petriello. The rankings will continue next Sunday, January 22 with MLB’s top ten starting pitchers unveiled at 9:00 p.m. ET, featuring analysis from MLB Network’s John Smoltz, and the top ten left fielders at 10:00 p.m. ET, with analysis from MLB Network’s Eric Byrnes.

 

About MLB Network:
MLB Network is the ultimate television destination for baseball fans, featuring the multiple Emmy Award-winning MLB Tonight, live regular season and Postseason game telecasts, original programming, highlights, and insights and analysis. MLB Network debuted on January 1, 2009 in a record-setting 50 million homes, is currently distributed in approximately 68 million homes throughout the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico, and is available for live, authenticated streaming via MLB.com At Bat and MLBNetwork.com. For more information and to find MLB Network in your area, go to www.MLBNetwork.com.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Still no.

 

What the hell is Daniel Murphy doing that far up the list? Are the MLB writers drunk?

 

No way does Murphy belong above Kinsler, Pedroia, Dozier, or even Kipnis.

 

WAR isn't the be-all, end-all of stats but Murphy has 4200 MLB PAs and a career 19.1 fWAR. His first 5+ fWAR season came in 2016 at age 31.

[beckmt]

Hard to tell what this ranking means, but the Dodgers have a different priority. Murphy is a coast player with 1+ super good years and very bad defense.  These list actually helped the Twins by raising Forsythe's price by making him that close to Dozier, and by rating Kinsler that high would probably cost the Dodgers De Leon, plus absorbing all of Kinsler's contract and a 2 year extension. 

I agree Zobrist is not a 2nd baseman, so him on the list is an error, but given that after Altuve most of the places are very close, it is just a matter of opinion and should be treated as such.

[amjgt]

BRIAN DOZIER RANKED 8TH ON MLB NETWORK’S TOP 10 SECOND BASEMEN RIGHT NOW!

 

January 16, 2017 – Minnesota Twins second baseman Brian Dozier was ranked 8th on MLB Network’s Top 10 Second Basemen Right Now! program yesterday. Dozier finished one spot ahead of the Rays’ Logan Forsythe and one spot behind the Rockies’ DJ LeMahieu.

 

Taking into account player performance over several seasons with an emphasis on 2016, a number of offensive and defensive metric, both advanced and traditional, and projected performance for the upcoming season, MLB Network’s Top 10 Right Now! series ranks the top players at each position heading into the 2017 season.

 

An embeddable video recap of Dozier’s ranking, along with the complete ranking, listed below, can be seen here:

 

Top 10 Second Basemen Right Now!

1. Jose Altuve, Houston Astros

2. Robinson Cano, Seattle Mariners

3. Daniel Murphy, Washington Nationals

4. Dustin Pedroia, Boston Red Sox

5. Ian Kinsler, Detroit Tigers

6. Jason Kipnis, Cleveland Indians

7. DJ LeMahieu, Colorado Rockies

8. Brian Dozier, Minnesota Twins

9. Logan Forsythe, Tampa Bay Rays

10. Ben Zobrist, Chicago Cubs

 

Last year's list:

1. Jose Altuve

2. Robinson Cano

3. Joe Panik

4. Ian Kinsler

5. Josh Harrison

6. Ben Zobrist

7. Neil Walker

8. Dustin Pedroia

9. Dee Gordon

10. Logan Forsythe

[amjgt]

And the year before:

 

1. Robinson Cano – Seattle Mariners

2. Dustin Pedroia – Boston Red Sox

3. Ben Zobrist – Oakland Athletics

4. Neil Walker – Pittsburgh Pirates

5. Ian Kinsler – Detroit Tigers

6. Jose Altuve – Houston Astros

7. Howie Kendrick – Los Angeles Dodgers

8. Chase Utley – Philadelphia Phillies

9. Brian Dozier – Minnesota Twins

10. Scooter Gennett – MIlwaukee Brewers

[Boom Boom]

My list might be different, but I'm not personally offended due to having "fly-over country" sensibilities. I also won't rip ESPN for their list or assume some kind of collusion between them and the Dodgers.

 

Minnesota fans are so sensitive.

[Doomtints]

 

Still no.

 

What the hell is Daniel Murphy doing that far up the list? Are the MLB writers drunk?

 

No way does Murphy belong above Kinsler, Pedroia, Dozier, or even Kipnis.

 

WAR isn't the be-all, end-all of stats but Murphy has 4200 MLB PAs and a career 19.1 fWAR. His first 5+ fWAR season came in 2016 at age 31.

 

Daniel Murphy hit for more power than Dozier, and with only 25 home runs.  I would take Murphy's 2016 over Dozier's any time.

[jimmer]

In 2016, Dozier had a 132 wRC+ and Murphy had a 156 wRC+.  I'd probably take Dozier who can play good defense and his wRC+ than Murphy with his 156 wRC+ and worst 2B defense in baseball.

 

On top of that, Dozier has been more consistently good than Murphy.  More WAR in the last 4 years, the last 3 years, last two years and last year.  And Dozier is a bit younger.

[mikelink45]

Amazing how emotional a list like this can make people.  It is one opinion and he is a knowledgeable judge.  We do over rate the home players - everyone does.  I have to keep reminding myself that many of the same people who are upset were wondering if he could be sent back to the minors the first half of the year. His bad start was not a slump - it was half a season and the year before he also had a serious half year split.

 

But in the long run the list does not say he is bad.  As for the Dodgers, it does not matter, he is the best that they have a chance to acquire.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Daniel Murphy hit for more power than Dozier, and with only 25 home runs.  I would take Murphy's 2016 over Dozier's any time.

He didn't hit for more power than Dozier. He hit a lot more singles than Dozier and had an .080 higher batting average.

 

Dozier had 35 doubles, 5 triples, 42 home runs.

 

Murphy had 47 doubles, 5 triples, 25 home runs, though he did it in roughly 100 less PAs.

 

But Dozier had 17 more homers, which gives him the nod in the power department. Doubles are nice but homers plate runs.

 

It'd be close but I'd probably take Dozier's 2016 over Murphy. I love Murphy's OBP but he's a butcher in the field... And remember that this discussion was about "best second baseman", not "best hitting second baseman". In the hitting department, an argument could be made for either player. Dozier has the homers, Murphy the doubles and OBP.

 

But on the defensive side of the field, Murphy is vastly inferior to Dozier.

 

And besides, my point was originally about Murphy's outlier 2016 as a reason he shouldn't be third on the list. Dozier has been better for longer than Murphy and a few of the players below Murphy on the list have been better than either Dozier or Murphy for a much longer period of time (Pedroia and Kinsler).

 

It's basically indefensible to have Murphy third on that list. No stat backs up that assertion, either career or 2016.

[jimmer]

wRC+ of 132 for Dozier. wRC+ of 156 for Murphy.  Murphy was the better offensive player by quite a decent margin. Dozier is the better player when looking overall and over the last few years.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

wRC+ of 132 for Dozier. wRC+ of 156 for Murphy.  Murphy was the better offensive player by quite a decent margin. Dozier is the better player when looking overall and over the last few years.

I'd probably take Murphy's 2016 from an offensive standpoint but it's close. Home runs are hard to ignore.

 

But as overall players, Dozier had the better season. That shouldn't really be in dispute. B-Ref hated Murphy's defense while Fangraphs just thought it was pretty bad.

[jimmer]

 

I'd probably take Murphy's 2016 from an offensive standpoint but it's close. Home runs are hard to ignore.

 

But as overall players, Dozier had the better season. That shouldn't really be in dispute. B-Ref hated Murphy's defense while Fangraphs just thought it was pretty bad.

Yeah, I don't think it's that close, but we'll have to disagree on that point, I guess.

 

Fangraphs had Murphy dead last for qualifying 2Bs for DRS and 19th out of 21 in UZR  Seems like a lot of 'hate' for Murphy's defense from Fangraphs to me.

 

I already said he was the worst defensive 2B in baseball. I already said Dozier was the better player last year and over the last 4, 3 and 2 seasons as well.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Interesting that the top 2 in NL batting average in 2016 were second baseman, and 3 of the top 5 with Segura. 2 of the top 3 in the AL too.

[twinssouth]

Dozier should be in top 5, market bias is skewing this ranking.

[nicksaviking]

I'm starting to think that if the Twins can't trade Dozier this off season, they should perhaps showcase him at 3B a bit this year. While the saturated 2B market is hurting the Twins ability to move him, he and his agent may find it agreeable to add the position to his resume seeing as Dozier will be trying to market himself in two years as well.

 

Also, on the days that Sano might DH or have the day off, an infield featuring Dozier at 3B, Escobar at SS and Polanco at 2B might be the most ideal defensively anyway. If Dozier can cut it at the hot corner that is.

 

The 3B market is also saturated of course, but flexibility at two positions surely is better than only one.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Yeah, I don't think it's that close, but we'll have to disagree on that point, I guess.

 

Fangraphs had Murphy dead last for qualifying 2Bs for DRS and 19th out of 21 in UZR  Seems like a lot of 'hate' for Murphy's defense from Fangraphs to me.

 

I already said he was the worst defensive 2B in baseball. I already said Dozier was the better player last year and over the last 4, 3 and 2 seasons as well.

You're right about Murphy's defense, I wasn't mentally adjusting for fewer innings on defense. I only adjusted for fewer plate appearances while scanning the stats.

 

When adjusted to not only being terrible on defense but also playing fewer innings, he's super-terrible.

[Oldgoat_MN]

If Dozier is that far down on the list because they expect him to regress then I wonder why 6 of the 8 above him being older doesn't factor in.

 

We'll know more when the games have been played. I'll be very surprised if Dozier is in 9th place at that time.

[jimmer]

 

You're right about Murphy's defense, I wasn't mentally adjusting for fewer innings on defense. I only adjusted for fewer plate appearances while scanning the stats.

 

When adjusted to not only being terrible on defense but also playing fewer innings, he's super-terrible.

Of course, it could be the defensive metrics we are looking at when comparing Dozier and Murphy are ridiculous (making the WAR argument that Dozier is a better overall player ridiculous), and we can conclude Murphy was/is the superior player after all. :-)

[Doomtints]

 

He didn't hit for more power than Dozier. He hit a lot more singles than Dozier and had an .080 higher batting average.

 

SLG = power.  He hit for more power than Dozier.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

SLG = power.  He hit for more power than Dozier.

Not really.

 

Slugging is a product of hits. Technically speaking, a hitter could hit for a .600 batting average and, therefore, have a .600 SLG while hitting only singles.

 

A .600 SLG is dominant, yet not a single person on the planet would consider that player a power hitter.

 

Tony Gywnn and Wade Boggs had higher career SLG percentages than Rob Deer. Of the three, which player "hit for power"?

 

[Rosterman]

-There is a case to over value, and that is what scares someone. He had a GREAT half-a-season. He had back-to-back lousy half-a-seasons. He's young, but still getting older. He's cheap, but could be more expensive, or really cheap.

 

 

In some ways, it is the same issue the Twins had with Trevor Plouffe. A solid player overall, but nothing exceptional (except Dozier did hit for more power.

 

[snepp]

Dozier was 2nd in the MLB in ISO ("hitting for power") at .278, behind only that Big Papi fellow, Murphy was 17th at .249.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Dozier was 2nd in the MLB in ISO ("hitting for power") at .278, behind only that Big Papi fellow, Murphy was 17th at .249.

This. ISO is a much better way to determine "power", as it removes batting average (ie. singles) from the conversation.

[jctwins]

I'm glad there is another thread about Dozier, and this list clearly proves he is "elite."

 

 

[Doomtints]

 

Not really.

 

Slugging is a product of hits. Technically speaking, a hitter could hit for a .600 batting average and, therefore, have a .600 SLG while hitting only singles.

 

A .600 SLG is dominant, yet not a single person on the planet would consider that player a power hitter.

 

Tony Gywnn and Wade Boggs had higher career SLG percentages than Rob Deer. Of the three, which player "hit for power"?

 

Getting into a debate about what SLG is might be the most pointless thing in the history of man.  Look it up on Fangraphs if you have questions.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Getting into a debate about what SLG is might be the most pointless thing in the history of man.  Look it up on Fangraphs if you have questions.  

I'm well aware what SLG means and, as snepp pointed out, ISO is the more accurate way to judge "power".

 

But since you brought up Fangraphs, here are their definitions of the terms:

 

ISO (Isolated Power): Average number of extra bases per at bat, calculated several ways such as SLG minus AVG.

 

SLG (Slugging Percentage): Average number of total bases per at bat, calculated as Total Bases/AB.

 

Notice which term contains the word "power" in it.

 

Slugging is an accumulation of total bases, which gives high-average hitters an advantage because they accumulate so many singles (hence my Wade Boggs vs. Rob Deer comparison).

 

ISO removes those singles to, well, isolate power.

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I'm starting to think that if the Twins can't trade Dozier this off season, they should perhaps showcase him at 3B a bit this year. While the saturated 2B market is hurting the Twins ability to move him, he and his agent may find it agreeable to add the position to his resume seeing as Dozier will be trying to market himself in two years as well.

 

Also, on the days that Sano might DH or have the day off, an infield featuring Dozier at 3B, Escobar at SS and Polanco at 2B might be the most ideal defensively anyway. If Dozier can cut it at the hot corner that is.

 

The 3B market is also saturated of course, but flexibility at two positions surely is better than only one.

 

Given how much Plouffe got in a trade, I'm guessing that's a non starter. If they wanted to showcase him in a position that would increase his value, it would be seeing if he could go back to being a SS.  If his defense fell into the 'slightly below average' range, his bat would more than makeup that difference.