White Sox Acquire Frazier In Three-Team Deal

[gocgo]

Wait!  Does this mean that the Sox are "All In"?....again.  If I remember right, they kind of mortgaged the future with the Peavy trade.  After that, their farm system was one of the worst in baseball.  Now they are once again trading away the farm and going all in baby!  Gotta love those Sox.

[nicksaviking]

Anyone else feel a bit snakebit? Perhaps my perception is skewed but a year when the Twins have a dearth of relief pitchers and a spare 3B, the market for relief pitchers is about as rediculously seller friendly as it's ever been and 3Bs are about as buyer friendly as ever.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Wait!  Does this mean that the Sox are "All In"?....again.  If I remember right, they kind of mortgaged the future with the Peavy trade.  After that, their farm system was one of the worst in baseball.  Now they are once again trading away the farm and going all in baby!  Gotta love those Sox.

None of the original guys they gave up for Peavy ever amounted to much (I guess Clayton Richard was decent for a few years as a back of the rotation guy), and they kept Peavy on a reasonable extension then later flipped him for Montas (their headliner in this deal) and Avisail Garcia.  I think it goes to show that these "selling the farm" trades often are not so.

 

The Samardzija trade might be worse (Semien, Phegley, etc.), particularly since they only got one (lousy) year from him, although they are still due a comp pick too.

[PseudoSABR]

Oh boy, the Whitesox win another off season.  I think the Whitesox's aversion to a total rebuild will haunt them sooner than later.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Anyone else feel a bit snakebit? Perhaps my perception is skewed but a year when the Twins have a dearth of relief pitchers and a spare 3B, the market for relief pitchers is about as rediculously seller friendly as it's ever been and 3Bs are about as buyer friendly as ever.

I don't think the whole market for relievers is seller-friendly.  Kimbrel and Giles fetched a ton, obviously, but the Padres and Brewers largely gave away Benoit and K-Rod, for instance.  And not all free agents have signed for a lot more than anticipated (i.e. Mark Lowe).  We just haven't participated in that market yet out of choice.

 

I don't have a ton of sympathy for our "spare 3B" plight either, considering Plouffe wasn't really a spare until we signed Park (and arguably still isn't, depending on what you project for Sano's health and defense).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Oh boy, the Whitesox win another off season.  I think the Whitesox's aversion to a total rebuild will haunt them sooner than later.  

When exactly would have a "total rebuild" improved the White Sox outlook?  Again: Sale, Abreu, Quintana, Eaton, Rodon, Robertson... they're far from perfect as a team, but a "total rebuild" is no guarantee of that either.

[lukeduke1980]

Perhaps T-Ry dangled Plouffey and saw only similar or poorer offers.  In that case bravo Terry.

[nicksaviking]

 

Oh boy, the Whitesox win another off season.  I think the Whitesox's aversion to a total rebuild will haunt them sooner than later.  

 

I think it's been haunting them for a good three years now.

 

That 2012 White Sox team looked an awful lot like the 2010 Twins team. Full of vets in their last few years of decent production with a few nice young players in the mix. Both teams probably over-achieved that year which lead to higher expectations than they should have had.

[Dman]

I like the trade for the Sox.  They just need to hit a bit better and they will be a tough team to beat with the pitching they have.  I was surprised at how things turned out for them last year as they seemed a bit snake bit in the hitting department.  Hard to keep the sticks down two years in a row.  Will be interesting to see if they drastically improve or flop yet again.

[PseudoSABR]

 

When exactly would have a "total rebuild" improved the White Sox outlook?  Again: Sale, Abreu, Quintana, Eaton, Rodon, Robertson... they're far from perfect as a team, but a "total rebuild" is no guarantee of that either.

nicksavings basically answered this (after 2012).  They do have some good players, but that they continue to trade prospects for barely-controllable vets, leaving their depth really bare.  They also end up with an older team, with obvious, increasing limitations (like defense).   Any success they may end up having, doesn't look sustainable, and won't allow them to better use Sale and Abreu's prime. 

 

It's one thing for the Twins to go out and sign Nolasco/Santana/Hughes for pricey long contracts, it'd be godawful if they actually traded prospects for such players (even if Frazier/Lawrie/Smardijza are clearly better); we'd be emptying out what is now our core. 

[kab21]

 

Oh boy, the Whitesox win another off season.  I think the Whitesox's aversion to a total rebuild will haunt them sooner than later.  

 

nicksavings basically answered this (after 2012).  They do have some good players, but that they continue to trade prospects for barely-controllable vets, leaving their depth really bare.  They also end up with an older team, with obvious, increasing limitations (like defense).   Any success they may end up having, doesn't look sustainable, and won't allow them to better use Sale and Abreu's prime. 

 

It's one thing for the Twins to go out and sign Nolasco/Santana/Hughes for pricey long contracts, it'd be godawful if they actually traded prospects for such players (even if Frazier/Lawrie/Smardijza are clearly better); we'd be emptying out what is now our core. 

How are they going to better use Sale and Abreu's prime by waiting 2-4 years for their mediocre farm system to produce a couple of average at best players?  If a team can trade alright prospects for above average players then they are making good trades. 

 

The White Sox certainly have a few holes on their roster but the alternative is to tear it completely down and rebuild by trading Sale and Abreu.  Their farm system is not going to build a team around Sale and Abreu anytime soon.

[Thrylos]

The Reds seem to have a clearance sale going on.  

 

They have a pretty long contract with Votto at $25M per season (until 2023, his age 39 season.)

Wonder whether they would be interested in swapping first basemen (thus saving 5 seasons at $25M) and throwing in a certain LHRP who got pretty bad publicity, with no other players of $ changing hands (ok, they can have the one who the Twins would have to DFA to add +1 on the 40 man.)

 

I'd knock on their door, just to see...

[DaveW]

Excellent move by the White Sox, just because a few moves didn't work last year they aren't afraid to try again, gotta love it if you are a fan of that club.

 

They didn't give up much IMO to get him, and the payoff could be huge.

[DaveW]

 

 

The Reds seem to have a clearance sale going on.  

 

They have a pretty long contract with Votto at $25M per season (until 2023, his age 39 season.)

Wonder whether they would be interested in swapping first basemen (thus saving 5 seasons at $25M) and throwing in a certain LHRP who got pretty bad publicity, with no other players of $ changing hands (ok, they can have the one who the Twins would have to DFA to add +1 on the 40 man.)

 

I'd knock on their door, just to see...

 

First off: Mauer isn't going to waive his no trade clause, especially to goto one of the worst cities in the history of man kind.

 

Second off: Why on earth would the Reds do that deal? Votto is easily "earning" his money currently and Chapman still will get some good prospects in return whenever he was traded. Neither is a salary dump, and if Votto was on the market there would be at least 5-10 teams who would offer a real nice package for him.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Excellent move by the White Sox, just because a few moves didn't work last year they aren't afraid to try again, gotta love it if you are a fan of that club.

 

They didn't give up much IMO to get him, and the payoff could be huge.

 

At some point shooting for the moon and missing becomes a bad strategy if you keep missing.

[h2oface]

 

This is pretty obviously a sign of fear and desperation by the Sox. I mean, one obviously doesn't just sit back and not respond to Trader Terry's big move of bringing back Darin Mastroianni.

 

Comin' with the comedy for a first post. Welcome.

[drjim]

I don't see the downside for the White Sox other than money. They still likely aren't good enough, but they didn't give up much and if they keep treading water the next couple of years they could always flip him at the 2017 deadline.

 

They have an ace, a very good middle of the order bat and some other pieces that could click.

[drjim]

To expand on the point some more, I think every team in the AL can squint and see themselves as a contender. No reason for any of them to pass up the opportunity to add an upgrade for the right price, though Tampa would potentially move a piece or two.

 

I see Colorado, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Philly, Atlanta as having basically no chance and San Diego and Miami as having very little chance - those are the teams I would obviously target for a trade, but not sure what exactly is still left to pick off at a reasonable price.

[DaveW]

 

At some point shooting for the moon and missing becomes a bad strategy if you keep missing.

I'm not sure how this is shooting for the moon, they didn't give up much to great Fraizer who is one of the best at his position, Abreu, Sale are in their prime (Sale had a very unlucky year last year) and you have Eaton as well, him Abreu and Frazier give you a real nice lineup. Sale and Rondon give you a nice 1-2. If they can sign another bat (corner OF) the White Sox suddenly look like a team that can compete.

[Shane Wahl]

Frazier is very good. But man, the White Sox are close to square one with their system now. There's no future there.

The Dodgers are rock stars on this one.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure how this is shooting for the moon, they didn't give up much to great Fraizer who is one of the best at his position, Abreu, Sale are in their prime (Sale had a very unlucky year last year) and you have Eaton as well, him Abreu and Frazier give you a real nice lineup. Sale and Rondon give you a nice 1-2. If they can sign another bat (corner OF) the White Sox suddenly look like a team that can compete.

Because you keep moving basically any significant talents so you are in a perpetual state of no depth, no farm, and not enough talent.

 

I think it was a fine move, but we've heard the White Sox back patting enough I think. Last year there was a ton of it too.

[Riverbrian]

1. I hate the White Sox and I hate every player who wears a White Sox uniform. I'm very bummed because the White Sox just acquired two of my favorite players in Lawrie and Frazier. So now I have to hate those two and I love the way they both play the game. 

 

2. On a more serious note: Don't sleep on the Sox in 2016. When I watch them play... they were horrible defensively. Picking up Frazier and Lawrie is a huge stride in fixing that. Couple that with Sale, Quintana and Rodon in the rotation and I think they just jumped out of also ran status. 

 

 

[USAFChief]

My guess is, the White Sox are not done adding.

 

Wouldn't be surprised to see them sign one of Cespedes/Upton/Gordon.  

 

 

[kab21]

 

Frazier is very good. But man, the White Sox are close to square one with their system now. There's no future there.

The Dodgers are rock stars on this one.

The White Sox have never had a good (and especially deep) farm system.  I don't like the methods of building a team but it is the way that they roll and if they add a couple more players then they are going to have a solid team.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Oh boy, the Whitesox win another off season.  I think the Whitesox's aversion to a total rebuild will haunt them sooner than later.  

I think it has haunted them for a few years already. This might help them get back into fringe contender range but they haven't had a winning record since 2012. I don't expect this offseason to vault them past the Royals, Twins, or Indians. They could catch one or two of those teams but probably not all three.

 

Had they committed to being a terrible team back in 2013 or 2014, they'd be well on the path back to relevance. Sale and Abreu would fetch a massive return in trade.

 

What the White Sox have done for the past 7-8 years is exactly the strategy I don't want my team to take ... Occasionally compete but never reach 90 wins and legitimate competitiveness. They haven't made the postseason since 2008 when they squeaked past the Twins in game 163.

 

IMO, the White Sox are proof that a steady hand and long-term vision is a hell of a lot better strategy than winning every offseason and losing every summer.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

nicksavings basically answered this (after 2012).  They do have some good players, but that they continue to trade prospects for barely-controllable vets, leaving their depth really bare.  They also end up with an older team, with obvious, increasing limitations (like defense).   Any success they may end up having, doesn't look sustainable, and won't allow them to better use Sale and Abreu's prime. 

 

It's one thing for the Twins to go out and sign Nolasco/Santana/Hughes for pricey long contracts, it'd be godawful if they actually traded prospects for such players (even if Frazier/Lawrie/Smardijza are clearly better); we'd be emptying out what is now our core. 

I think you are letting your narrative get in the way of reality.

 

Since the end of the 2012 season, the White Sox have only twice traded prospects for MLB pieces: this Frazier deal, and the Samardzija trade last winter.  That one last winter turned out poorly, obviously, but Semien and Phegley don't really represent "core" players, and many observers don't think they are giving up any such players in the Frazier deal either (many have Montas pegged for the bullpen eventually).

 

They've actually traded MLB players themselves far more often, most notably Peavy and Hector Santiago, but also lesser deals selling Rios, Reed, etc.

 

Additionally, they haven't forfeited any first-round picks for their various free agent signings (even their 2016 pick is still protected, if they want to sign someone yet this winter), and they actually netted their own compensation pick for Samardzija next year.

 

You can go back even further too and you won't find much actual evidence to support your claims.  Aside from Eduardo Escobar in July 2012, I think you have to go back to 2008 and Gio Gonzalez to find a prospect they traded that became a "core player" (and even then, they actually acquired Gonzalez a year earlier for selling Freddy Garcia).

 

They are obviously not perfect, but no, they haven't been selling the farm.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think you are letting your narrative get in the way of reality.

 

Since the end of the 2012 season, the White Sox have only twice traded prospects for MLB pieces: this Frazier deal, and the Samardzija trade last winter.  That one last winter turned out poorly, obviously, but Semien and Phegley don't really represent "core" players, and many observers don't think they are giving up any such players in the Frazier deal either (many have Montas pegged for the bullpen eventually).

 

They've actually traded MLB players themselves far more often, most notably Peavy and Hector Santiago, but also lesser deals selling Rios, Reed, etc.

 

Additionally, they haven't forfeited any first-round picks for their various free agent signings (even their 2016 pick is still protected, if they want to sign someone yet this winter), and they actually netted their own compensation pick for Samardzija next year.

 

You can go back even further too and you won't find much actual evidence to support your claims.  Aside from Eduardo Escobar in July 2012, I think you have to go back to 2008 and Gio Gonzalez to find a prospect they traded that became a "core player" (and even then, they actually acquired Gonzalez a year earlier for selling Freddy Garcia).

 

They are obviously not perfect, but no, they haven't been selling the farm.

 

Pesky, pesky facts.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Had they committed to being a terrible team back in 2013 or 2014, they'd be well on the path back to relevance. Sale and Abreu would fetch a massive return in trade.

Huh?  Abreu and Sale are superstars performing well and controlled (rather cheaply) through 2019.  Trading them for prospects would have been an incredibly risky move, especially considering the White Sox haven't been great at finding and developing prospects themselves, you think they have really great odds of finding and developing impact players from other organizations?  Remember, even with elite controlled talent (like Jose Fernandez recently), it's not likely for anyone to fetch multiple elite prospects in trade -- the White Sox would have more likely seen returns in the Hamels and Knoblauch mold, which is pretty much a bad deal unless you project to completely hopeless for the foreseeable future (like the Phillies and Braves now, or the Twins circa 1997).

 

It's almost certainly a smarter play to keep those superstars and just try to get better.  It hasn't quite worked out yet, but they almost certainly have a better outlook today and for the next 4 years by not trading these two guys.

[cmoss84]

 

My guess is, the White Sox are not done adding.

 

Wouldn't be surprised to see them sign one of Cespedes/Upton/Gordon.  

First of all, a lot of people last year praised them for the Shark/Robertson/Melky deals. I was not one of them (although Robertson is a lot better than I thought he was). Right now, it just seems like they are middle of the road. If they signed Cespedes and 1 more quality pitcher, then I like this trade a lot better. Until then, to me it just looks like they are treading water and weakening their farm at the same time.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I think you are letting your narrative get in the way of reality.

 

Since the end of the 2012 season, the White Sox have only twice traded prospects for MLB pieces: this Frazier deal, and the Samardzija trade last winter.  That one last winter turned out poorly, obviously, but Semien and Phegley don't really represent "core" players, and many observers don't think they are giving up any such players in the Frazier deal either (many have Montas pegged for the bullpen eventually).

 

They've actually traded MLB players themselves far more often, most notably Peavy and Hector Santiago, but also lesser deals selling Rios, Reed, etc.

 

Additionally, they haven't forfeited any first-round picks for their various free agent signings (even their 2016 pick is still protected, if they want to sign someone yet this winter), and they actually netted their own compensation pick for Samardzija next year.

 

You can go back even further too and you won't find much actual evidence to support your claims.  Aside from Eduardo Escobar in July 2012, I think you have to go back to 2008 and Gio Gonzalez to find a prospect they traded that became a "core player" (and even then, they actually acquired Gonzalez a year earlier for selling Freddy Garcia).

 

They are obviously not perfect, but no, they haven't been selling the farm.

I didn't mean to suggest they were betting the farm, but rather they've been avoiding a full-on rebuild.  As your post points out the ChiSox have rebuilt with the right hand while trying to compete with the left.  (Retooling, I think, ultimately leads to sort of mediocrity).   And it's not just that they've been adding veterans, it's the kind of veterans they add: corner-power guys that don't always position flexibility (Lawrie is the exception here, but I imagine he's not quite the quality defender at second that he would be at third). 

 

As far as what I meant by "core" - I don't mean allstar level players; I mean a group of a dozen guys who have developed along the same time line, that provide a team with long-term, low-cost depth.  

 

Whitesox are already on this path I guess, so I realize that asking them to rebuild at this point isn't realistic given what they've done the past couple offseasons.   I just don't think they have the depth to really compete, and they've resigned themselves to a mediocre form of competitiveness.