Who was the best baseball player ever?

[spinowner]

 

No. Just no. For one, Aaron played 2/3 of his home games in his career in Milwaukee, not Atlanta. One of those wonderful farces about Fulton County was that it was a hitters' haven. Not exactly. Until late June, the air is so thick that balls simply died on the warning track due to how wet the air was. Aaron himself once stated that if the team didn't move to Atlanta and had instead stayed in Milwaukee, he would have eclipsed over 800 home runs.  You could make a number of arguments against Aaron, but his park doesn't hold weight.

Sorry, but humid air is less dense than dry air. Only if there is a significant amount of mist would "thick" air slow the ball down. But I'll stand somewhat corrected about the number of games played in Atlanta. For some reason I mistakenly thought the Braves moved there sooner than that.

[USAFChief]

In my humble opinion, it cannot and will not ever be for me a player who played before integration. If I want to be considered the best quilter in all the world, but I exclude anyone over 55 from the consideration, that drastically skews who I'm competing against. If I want to be considered the best ice skater in the world, but limit the geographical constraints of "the world" to within 10 degrees of the Equator, it eliminates most of the best competition for such a title. Ruth never faced Rube Foster, Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, etc., and his own feats at that time were matched and/or surpassed by a hitter in the Negro Leagues by the name of Josh Gibson, who played out his career at one of the most physically demanding positions in the game.

 

Walking through the Hall of Fame last week gave me my insight, though I would have been biased this way anyway.  The largest individual player display in the entire Hall of Fame*? Hank Aaron.

 

*Contents of the Hall of Fame are subject to change without notice. Any and all exact measurements of size of display were not taken into context, merely the amount of floor space occupied by any individual player.

You should probably put an asterisk by Aaron's name then, too.

 

When he broke in, only 5.6 percent of the big leagues were African American. Only 3.7 percent were Latino, and by his last year, only 11.5 percent. Today that number is over 25 percent. Asian players weren't a factor during Aaron's days, either.

 

You should probably disqualify any player playing now, too. African Americans represent less than 10 percent of today's MLB, and have for a decade now.

 

http://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012

[TheLeviathan]

You don't think there is a difference between that and 0%?

 

It's the point behind it - Ruth played in an era with far less travel and with only a portion of the populace around the world eligible to participate.  Ruth was great, but I simply can't compare what he did with the more modern game.

 

It's apples and oranges IMO.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

You should probably put an asterisk by Aaron's name then, too.

When he broke in, only 5.6 percent of the big leagues were African American. Only 3.7 percent were Latino, and by his last year, only 11.5 percent. Today that number is over 25 percent. Asian players weren't a factor during Aaron's days, either.

You should probably disqualify any player playing now, too. African Americans represent less than 10 percent of today's MLB, and have for a decade now.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012

 

 

You don't think there is a difference between that and 0%?

 

It's the point behind it - Ruth played in an era with far less travel and with only a portion of the populace around the world eligible to participate.  Ruth was great, but I simply can't compare what he did with the more modern game.

 

It's apples and oranges IMO.

Wait to the Aliens arrive from the plogzungazzo solar system. That's when the real argument will begin. Baseball will be turned on its head. I know a few scouts from that neck of the woods.

[biggentleben]

 

Sorry, but humid air is less dense than dry air. Only if there is a significant amount of mist would "thick" air slow the ball down. But I'll stand somewhat corrected about the number of games played in Atlanta. For some reason I mistakenly thought the Braves moved there sooner than that.

 

I think that's part of the misnomer. At the exact same temperature, humid air is less dense. Atlanta in the summer is about as hot as anywhere in the majors. Aaron talked about how by the time his third at bat came around, he was so physically exhausted that it took finding an absolute perfect pitch to even drive it.

[DocBauer]

Mark DeRosa

[Lefty]

My vote goes to Ruth as well.  The year that Bonds hit 73 and even after that season was simply amazing.  He was walked so many times that it was crazy that he even got to hit 20.  And yes, he was juicing, but so was every other power hitter at the time, and they rarely hit much over 40.  The guy was a freak of a hitter.  If you deny that, you're crazy!  Mays sounds like he was a really special player.  Not much love for the pitchers on here, are they the equivalent of the kicker?  What about Pete Rose?  Nolan Ryan also had a decent body of work.

[James]

Late to the game, but I have to vote Ruth as well.

 

Nate Silver wrote a great article about this that was published in the book Baseball Between the Numbers: Why Everything You Know About the Game Is Wrong.  It's the first article in the book and it's a fantastic one.  

 

It's actually a collection of Baseball Prospectus articles.  In that case, he tries to normalize all the stats by using park factors and factoring in the talent of the league as a whole at the time.  It's a great read, but a little numbers heavy.  

[Linus]

While I won't argue with Ruth, Aaron does deserve serious consideration.  If I remember correctly (I don't do research) he won Gold Gloves and was an excellent base runner.  Hitting speaks for itself.

 

No to Bonds for a bunch of reasons including, while he was fast before the roids, he ended up being a poor defender who never had a good arm.

[RedBull34]

My name is Mike Schmidt. I could be biased.

 

I say Babe Ruth.

[RedBull34]

Better question is if you created the all-time roster what would that look like. 

[HitInAPinch]

No question.  From Bleacher Reports story on "MLB History: Five Impossible Statistics That Actually Happened"

 

#1. Babe Ruth Hits More Homers than Any Other Team...Twice

 

an old but fun story to read: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/666554-five-impossible-mlb-statistics-that-actually-happened

[Minniman]

I wonder ... if Ruth plays against post WWII players, and Bonds doesn't do drugs, wouldn't it be Mays?

[biggentleben]

 

While I won't argue with Ruth, Aaron does deserve serious consideration.  If I remember correctly (I don't do research) he won Gold Gloves and was an excellent base runner.  Hitting speaks for itself.

 

No to Bonds for a bunch of reasons including, while he was fast before the roids, he ended up being a poor defender who never had a good arm.

 

Bonds was an exceptional defender when he came up until about the mid-90s. His arm was never strong, but he had a good enough arm with a great range. Greg Maddux once was asked to put together a "best defender by position" team that he would have liked to have behind him, and without a hesitation when they came to left field, he stated "Pirates-era Barry Bonds".

[biggentleben]

 

I wonder ... if Ruth plays against post WWII players, and Bonds doesn't do drugs, wouldn't it be Aaron?

 

FIFY

[Minniman]

 

Mays Aaron

 

FIFY

 

Mays was a better glove and baserunner.

 

[biggentleben]

 

Mays was a better glove and baserunner.

 

I think they can be compared, but positional adjustments will always favor a center fielder. Aaron covered an extremely spacious outfield and was even an elite middle infielder before he got slid into hard and injured a knee his rookie year, prompting the team to move him to ensure his bat stayed in the lineup.

 

As far as base running, stolen bases do not a base runner make. Don Drysdale thought Hank was better than Mays and even cited his base running, stating that Hank took 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home better than anyone he'd ever seen in the game.

[Halsey Hall]

Disappointed no one mentioned Mantle when Mays is thrown around so much.  I always favored Mantle over Mays.  But Ruth is the winna!

[biggentleben]

 

Disappointed no one mentioned Mantle when Mays is thrown around so much.  I always favored Mantle over Mays.  But Ruth is the winna!

 

Without that drainage hole in right field, Mantle might make this discussion simply asinine, but that happened, and it did take away some from his overall game in comparison to Mays and Aaron in the same era.

[Minniman]

 

I think they can be compared, but positional adjustments will always favor a center fielder. Aaron covered an extremely spacious outfield and was even an elite middle infielder before he got slid into hard and injured a knee his rookie year, prompting the team to move him to ensure his bat stayed in the lineup.

 

As far as base running, stolen bases do not a base runner make. Don Drysdale thought Hank was better than Mays and even cited his base running, stating that Hank took 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home better than anyone he'd ever seen in the game.

 

Fair enough.

 

Since I was not around to actually watch Ruth, Mays, or many others great players play, and most of the "superstars" I did get to watch were likely juiced, it is hard to be definitive. Aaron and Mays were both great, but Ruth dominated his era like no other player.

 

Ted Williams was likely the best pure hitter I have seen on paper or on film. If not for three years of military service in WWII or Korea to cut short or eliminate some seasons his stats would be even better. Williams was not the defensive player that Mays was, and he did not dominate in home runs like Aaron or Ruth, but he was the better hitter.

 

Barry Bonds could have been up there, but his stats will always be tainted by the BALCO revelations. Commissioner Bud Selig's inaction during the home run record race ruined the integrity of the game and any stats from that era.

[Willihammer]

Better question is if you created the all-time roster what would that look like.

Any of the old farts want to take a crack at this?

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

If I had to guess by Position:

 

1 - Walter Johnson RHP, Randy Johnson LHP

2 - Josh Gibson

3 - Stan Musial

4 - Eddie Collins or Joe Morgan

5 - Mike Schmidt or .... A-Rod...

6 - Honus Wagner

7 - Cobb or Aaron

8 - Mays or Mantle

9 - Ruth

DH Bonds*

Closer: Mariano Rivera

 

 

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

and maybe I take Albert Pujols  or Miguel Cabrera over Musial in a couple years. Not yet. Not today.

[biggentleben]

Aaron played RF, though.

[D. Hocking]

I would probably lean towards Babe - but it is a tough one - balancing different eras, pre and post integration, etc.  Would be interesting to see how some of the best players would have performed during a different time.  Would Babe had a personal trainer and been more fit if playing in 2005, or would he have floundered against a more fit field (that had the best athletes of all races)?  I suspect Ruth had so much talent, he would have adapted to any era, but would he have been as dominant?

 

If Bonds played in 1915, he would be some footnoted entry as a great player in the Negro league and his over all greatness would be largely speculated (or Hank Aaron if he would have played a generation earlier than he did).   With changes in physical conditioning and off season activities - would certain players have broken down sooner or held up longer if they played during a different time.   Would certain hitting milestones or records not occurred due to improving defense etc.?

 

I have no idea, but it makes me want to Netflex the Ken Burns baseball documentary sometime soon.  It has been a few years since I have watched it.

 

 

[Hawkeye12]

Babe Ruth played enough exhibition games against the Negro League All Stars, plus Cuba and Japan to see that it made very little difference in what he would've done.  He was consistent across the board (and actually pitched again very well in many of those same tours).  I also don't think there would've been a significant discrepancy as far as pitching, even if it was integrated earlier.

[Cap'n Piranha]

Lou Gehrig should be at first on the all-time team, and in the conversation for greatest player ever.  Consider the below;

 

• Gehrig played essentially 14 seasons (1925 through 1938), and posted a WAR of 116.  That means he averaged 8.3 WAR per year.  Ruth is at 10 for 16 years (hitting only).  Mays is at 7.7 for 19, Aaron is at 6.4 for 21, Musial is at 6.5 for 19.
• For 13 of his 14 years, Gehrig walked more than he struck out, including 7 straight years where he drew more than twice as many walks as strikeouts.  Ruth drew more BB's than K's 15 of 16 years, but only was above the 2/1 BB/k ratio 3 times.  Mays only did this 9 times, and never 2/1, Aaron also 9x and never 2/1, although Musial actually never struck out more than he walked; he also achieved the 2/1 ratio 15 times, including the first 13 years of his career.
• Only once in his career did Gehrig NOT have more XBH than K's.  That happened to Ruth 5 times, Mays 7 times, Aaron 6 times, and Musial only once.
• Gehrig twice had more home runs in a season than strikeouts.  Ruth, Mays, and Aaron never did that, Musial did it once.
• Gehrig's best statistical season was 1927, when he slashed .373/.474/.765 (1.239), with 52 2B, 18 3B, and 47 HR.  He drove in 175 runs, scored 149 himself, walked 109 times, and struck out 84.  My favorite season of his was 1934, when he slashed .363/.465/.706 (1.171), with 40 2B, 6 3B, and 49 HR.  He drove in 165 runs, scored 128, walked 109 times, and only struck out 31 times.  He had 3 times as many XBH's as k's!!!
• Gehrig's career low OPS was .896, as a 22 year old in his first professional season.  That would have been 9th, 14th, 12th, 19th, and 17th over the past 5 seasons.

[biggentleben]

By Fangraphs WAR:

RHP: Roger Clemens

LHP: Randy Johnson

C: Johnny Bench

1B: Stan Musial

2B: Rogers Hornsby

3B: Alex Rodriguez

SS: Honus Wagner

LF: Barry Bonds

CF: Willie Mays

RF: Babe Ruth

OF (regardless of specific position): Ruth, Bonds, Mays (in that order)

 

Top 20 position players ever per fWAR:

Ruth

Bonds

Mays

Ty Cobb

Wagner

Hank Aaron

Tris Speaker

Ted Williams

Hornsby

Musial

Eddie Collins

Lou Gehrig

Alex Rodriguez

Mickey Mantle

Mel Ott

Mike schmidt

Rickey Henderson

Frank Robinson

Nap Lajoie

Jimmie Foxx

 

Top 10 pitchers, regardless of handedness:

Clemens

Cy Young

Greg Maddux

Walter Johnson

Big Unit

Nolan Ryan

Bert Blyleven

Gaylord Perry

Pete Alexander

Steve Carlton

[tobi0040]

 

By Fangraphs WAR:

RHP: Roger Clemens

LHP: Randy Johnson

C: Johnny Bench

1B: Stan Musial

2B: Rogers Hornsby

3B: Alex Rodriguez

SS: Honus Wagner

LF: Barry Bonds

CF: Willie Mays

RF: Babe Ruth

OF (regardless of specific position): Ruth, Bonds, Mays (in that order)

 

Top 20 position players ever per fWAR:

Ruth

Bonds

Mays

Ty Cobb

Wagner

Hank Aaron

Tris Speaker

Ted Williams

Hornsby

Musial

Eddie Collins

Lou Gehrig

Alex Rodriguez

Mickey Mantle

Mel Ott

Mike schmidt

Rickey Henderson

Frank Robinson

Nap Lajoie

Jimmie Foxx

 

Top 10 pitchers, regardless of handedness:

Clemens

Cy Young

Greg Maddux

Walter Johnson

Big Unit

Nolan Ryan

Bert Blyleven

Gaylord Perry

Pete Alexander

Steve Carlton

 

II would like to make one adjustment if I could. Pardon me this is a bit of a grey area.  Ted Williams ended his career 14th in WAR with 123 (BRef).  He led the league in WAR at over 10 at ages 22, 23, 27, and 28.  Of course he missed his age 24, 25, and 26 seasons because he volunteered to fight in WW2.  I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and add 30 WAR to his total.  That brings him to 6th all-time behind Ruth, Young, Johnson, Bonds, and Mays. 

 

That would leave him as your 4th best OF or best DH, depending on where you put Babe Ruth.

Another adjustment could be to Bonds numbers.  Williams for example saw his WAR cut in about half from 35-40, from 10 a year in his prime to about 5 as he got older.  Applying any sort of normal aging curve to Bonds takes off a good chunk of his WAR to get him out of that outfield.

 

Career Lines:

 

Williams  .344, .482 OBP, .634 slugging, .1.116 OPS.  190 OPS+.  Selfless Patriot.

 

Bonds    .298, .444 OBP, .607 slugging, 1.051 OPS, 165 OPS+. Lying cheater and huge jerk.

 

Advantage Williams.  Stolen bases and defense be dammed

[ashbury]

I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt ...

In that case my personal list gives Josh Gibson quite a number of WAR as well.

 

_{^{/ point being, an open ended question like this thread-starter gets interesting when you start to really think the word "best" through}}