Who was the best baseball player ever?

[spinowner]

One thing I enjoy about mowing the lawn is that it gives me an opportunity to think. And this morning's thought was this question. Specifically I'm considering career performance over peak performance.

Playing conditions, strategies, player specialization and so forth have changed greatly over the course of the years. Because of those changes it is extremely difficult to answer this question definitively, even with thorough statistical analysis. Apples vs oranges and all that.

In spite of that, we can all form an opinion. As you can probably guess, I've decided to post my opinion and invite others to post theirs. I have not done a thorough review of career statistics and I'm not going to cite any specific numbers. I suggest that those who wish to post an opinion realize that other opinions are equally valid and that there is probably no right or wrong opinion. Unless you think Terry Felton should be considered.

I think there are three players who are finalists. In alphabetical order: Walter Johnson, Willie Mays and Babe Ruth.

The thing that usually seems to get left out of this discussion is that Ruth was a good pitcher. That outweighs any advantage Mays may have had over Ruth in the other phases of the game and Ruth's performance in the other phases of the game outweighs Johnson's advantage over him as a pitcher. I will also say that I give Ruth the edge over Mays as a hitter because he outperformed the other hitters of his generation by a wider margin than Mays outperformed the other hitters of his generation. I'd certainly give Mays the edge in fielding and base running.

So the answer (IMHO): Babe Ruth.

 

[drjim]

Barry Bonds

[Craig Arko]

Ruth, not really much contest. Maybe Satchel Paige.

 

But changing the criteria slightly from 'best' to 'most significant' I'll also go for the guy whose number is retired by all the teams: Jackie Robinson.

[Oldgoat_MN]

When Jack Morris pitched 10 innings of shutout baseball to win a World Series game in 1991 he was the first pitcher to throw a 10 inning shutout in the World Series since Babe Ruth.

 

Ruth had no equal in the game as far as a hitter.

 

No question in my mind.

 

[tobi0040]

OPS plus factors in hitting versus the league at the time.

 

Ruth's was 206, Bonds 182, and Mays 156.

 

Total WAR factors in defense as well as stolen bases, areas where guys like Mays and Bonds excelled where Ruth did not.  Ruth 163.  Bonds 162.  Mays 156.  However, Ruth played only 2,500 games (1 WAR per 15.3 games). Bonds and Mays played just short of 3,000 (Bonds 1 per  18.4 games, Mays 1 per 19.1 games).

 

The one funny thing about Ruth's stats.  He had 123 career stolen bases and he was thrown out 117 times.  You think he would have been told not to steal.  Although I guess he probably wasn't told much of anything.

[drjim]

 

OPS plus factors in hitting versus the league at the time.

 

Ruth's was 206, Bonds 182, and Mays 156.

 

Total WAR factors in defense as well as stolen bases, areas where guys like Mays and Bonds excelled where Ruth did not.  Ruth 163.  Bonds 162.  Mays 156.  However, Ruth played only 2,500 games (1 WAR per 15.3 games). Bonds and Mays played just short of 3,000 (Bonds 1 per  18.4 games, Mays 1 per 19.1 games).

 

The one funny thing about Ruth's stats.  He had 123 career stolen bases and he was thrown out 117 times.  You think he would have been told not to steal.  Although I guess he probably wasn't told much of anything.

 

Ruth ended a world series with a caught stealing.

 

Needless to say, the R of WAR and 100 level for OPS plus were significantly lighter thresholds in the time of Ruth than Mays or especially Bonds.

[twinsfanstreif]

Ruth is the obvious answer, but I'm gonna give you an interesting contender that no one would even consider. If you include defense, offensive impact, and longevity, Ichiro Suzuki checks off all those boxes. People forget he didn't make it to the states until he was 27 and if you combine his Japanese Stats he totaled over 4000 hits in his career while being an elite, GG CF for most of his career as well. I know people don't want to consider players who are still currently playing but to do what he did in modern baseball is amazing and think about if he had started his career here.....Alas it's still probably Ruth, I'm just trying to think a little outside the box

[spinowner]

 

OPS plus factors in hitting versus the league at the time.

 

Ruth's was 206, Bonds 182, and Mays 156.

 

Total WAR factors in defense as well as stolen bases, areas where guys like Mays and Bonds excelled where Ruth did not.  Ruth 163.  Bonds 162.  Mays 156.  However, Ruth played only 2,500 games (1 WAR per 15.3 games). Bonds and Mays played just short of 3,000 (Bonds 1 per  18.4 games, Mays 1 per 19.1 games).

 

The one funny thing about Ruth's stats.  He had 123 career stolen bases and he was thrown out 117 times.  You think he would have been told not to steal.  Although I guess he probably wasn't told much of anything.

As useful as WAR can be, it only evaluates what a player does on the field. It doesn't measure Ruth's pitching talent, at least not after 1919.

[Willihammer]

 

OPS plus factors in hitting versus the league at the time.

 

Ruth's was 206, Bonds 182, and Mays 156.

And if you were to invent a League Factor, it might look something like this

 

30s: 30

60s: 60

00s: 90

 

which is why you can't make a 1:1 comparison of stats. Ruth played in a country club, Bonds played against Japanese, black Dominicans, etc.

[tobi0040]

 

Ruth ended a world series with a caught stealing.

 

Needless to say, the R of WAR and 100 level for OPS plus were significantly lighter thresholds in the time of Ruth than Mays or especially Bonds.

 

No doubt, his OBP, Slugging, and OPS numbers are comical. 

 

Anyone on the fence should look at this pitching numbers:.  He was actually a 20 WAR pitcher despite it being a few season thing.

 

1,200 IP.  2.28 ERA.  107 CG in 147 starts.  2.81 FIP.   2nd in WAR for pitching in 1916 (23 wins). 5th in 1917 (24 wins).  Back to back seasons of throwing over 330 innings 

 

Then he moved to doing both for awhile.

 

1918   .966 OPS, 192 OPS plus  166 IP, 2.22 ERA  13 wins.

 

1919  1.114 OPS.  284 OPS pls.   133 IP, 2.97 ERA.  9 wins.

 

 

[mickeymental]

ty cobb (ops+ 168) certainly belongs in the conversation.

 

check out charles leerhsen's ty cobb: a terrible beauty (2015). exhaustive research depicts something far beyond than the bigoted, peer-hated, spike-sharpening monster myth. it instead paints cobb as a hot-tempered but misunderstood perfectionist admired by peers who dealt with a suffocating life as the first media-conjured sports superstar. which is not to mention the 4189 hits ...

[TheLeviathan]

It's hard for me to compare Ruth vs. Bonds given the dynamics of the game - you know, like only playing white guys from the northeast U.S.

[tobi0040]

 

It's hard for me to compare Ruth vs. Bonds given the dynamics of the game - you know, like only playing white guys from the northeast U.S.

 

Or playing after you gain 40 pounds of muscle from something 90% of the players were not using.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Or playing after you gain 40 pounds of muscle from something 90% of the players were not using.

 

That's fine, drug abuse of varying forms has existed through most of baseball history.  My point wasn't just about Bonds - pick anyone you want after integration, but Ruth played baseball in a format totally unlike what has followed since.

[tobi0040]

 

 drug abuse of varying forms has existed through most of baseball history.  

 

I agree. But I don't think anything before helped players the way steriods did.

[Hrbowski]

Ted Williams.

[stringer bell]

I saw Willie Mays play, that tempers my opinion. He was a great hitter in an era when hitting .300 was pretty special, he was a wonderful defender and great base runner. I think that kind of overall greatness made him a better player than Ruth. I can't consider Bonds.

[mickeymental]

I saw Willie Mays play, that tempers my opinion. He was a great hitter in an era when hitting .300 was pretty special, he was a wonderful defender and great base runner. I think that kind of overall greatness made him a better player than Ruth. I can't consider Bonds.

at the same time and regarding overall greatness, mays and bonds never threw more than 1,200 innings with a 2.28 e.r.a. (or went 3-0 in world series with an e.r.a. under 1.00).

[Monkeypaws]

Yeah, George Ruth. Guy didn't train, pitched like a mofo, then set a record for HRs and changed the game.

 

Imagine what his legacy would have been provided he took care of himself, let alone trained like a modern athlete?

 

The fact he pitched A1 stuff for 5 years before becoming the Bambino, winning over 20 games twice as well as an ERA crown of 1.75, over 300 innings twice plus a league leading 45 complete games one season, well, all that before changing the game as a power hitter, WHAT?!

 

He was the kid in sandlot ball that was just the best at everything, except he did it at the highest level.

[Thrylos]

 

OPS plus factors in hitting versus the league at the time.

 

Ruth's was 206, Bonds 182, and Mays 156.

 

Total WAR factors in defense as well as stolen bases, areas where guys like Mays and Bonds excelled where Ruth did not.  Ruth 163.  Bonds 162.  Mays 156.  However, Ruth played only 2,500 games (1 WAR per 15.3 games). Bonds and Mays played just short of 3,000 (Bonds 1 per  18.4 games, Mays 1 per 19.1 games).

 

The one funny thing about Ruth's stats.  He had 123 career stolen bases and he was thrown out 117 times.  You think he would have been told not to steal.  Although I guess he probably wasn't told much of anything.

 

You need to add Ruth's 20.3 WAR as a P.

 

It is not even close.  Ruth is it.  Career wise.

 

He also has the 3 best single season WAR numbers, unless you are counting pitchers

[USAFChief]

I don't understand any answer except Babe Ruth.

[drjim]

 

I don't understand any answer except Babe Ruth.

 

Not all of us had the chance to watch him live.

[USAFChief]

 

Not all of us had the chance to watch him live.

Then you'll just have to take my word for it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't understand any answer except Babe Ruth.

I agree that Ruth was probably the best but I understand arguments for Mays. The strength of competition was just so much higher in the 50s and 60s.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ted Williams.

Best pure hitter? In my opinion, yes. Best baseball player? No. Ted's quite apparent disdain for defense disqualifies him from the running.

 

But hitting... Good god. Factor in the seasons Williams lost to war and he's right there with Bonds and Ruth in career numbers.

[blairpaul715]

Yes Babe Ruth, but why no mention of Aaron over Mays, i think it is close, but I would take Aaron. More HR's , more RBI's, better base stealing percentage. OPS basically the same, more BB's........close but............

[spinowner]

 

Yes Babe Ruth, but why no mention of Aaron over Mays, i think it is close, but I would take Aaron. More HR's , more RBI's, better base stealing percentage. OPS basically the same, more BB's........close but............

Fulton County Stadium (small, higher altitude, warm humid air) gave Aaron a lot of help that Mays didn't get at Candlestick Park.

[Bark's Lounge]

Earlier in this thread there was some mention of Barry Bonds. I do not like what he did and he is paying the price for it, but damn - as a 40 year old man, who has been watching the game for 30 years, he was an uber amazing all-around player for the first 3/4's of his career and the last 1/4, at bat, I have never come close to seeing anything like it... Wow!

 

My vote goes to the Bambino, his legend is so huge, that sometimes I don't believe it happened and it is all a conspiracy theory.

[biggentleben]

In my humble opinion, it cannot and will not ever be for me a player who played before integration. If I want to be considered the best quilter in all the world, but I exclude anyone over 55 from the consideration, that drastically skews who I'm competing against. If I want to be considered the best ice skater in the world, but limit the geographical constraints of "the world" to within 10 degrees of the Equator, it eliminates most of the best competition for such a title. Ruth never faced Rube Foster, Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, etc., and his own feats at that time were matched and/or surpassed by a hitter in the Negro Leagues by the name of Josh Gibson, who played out his career at one of the most physically demanding positions in the game.

 

Walking through the Hall of Fame last week gave me my insight, though I would have been biased this way anyway.  The largest individual player display in the entire Hall of Fame*? Hank Aaron.

 

*Contents of the Hall of Fame are subject to change without notice. Any and all exact measurements of size of display were not taken into context, merely the amount of floor space occupied by any individual player.

[biggentleben]

 

Fulton County Stadium (small, higher altitude, warm humid air) gave Aaron a lot of help that Mays didn't get at Candlestick Park.

 

No. Just no. For one, Aaron played 2/3 of his home games in his career in Milwaukee, not Atlanta. One of those wonderful farces about Fulton County was that it was a hitters' haven. Not exactly. Until late June, the air is so thick that balls simply died on the warning track due to how wet the air was. Aaron himself once stated that if the team didn't move to Atlanta and had instead stayed in Milwaukee, he would have eclipsed over 800 home runs.  You could make a number of arguments against Aaron, but his park doesn't hold weight.