Who was the best baseball player ever?

[tobi0040]

 

In that case my personal list gives Josh Gibson quite a number of WAR as well.

 

_{^{/ point being, an open ended question like this thread-starter gets interesting when you start to really think the word "best" through}}

 

Yeah, some of those guys would be in this conversation if the league had been integrated.  No question.

 

As a matter of a numerical exercise, I looked at Bonds numbers.  The three comps I used were Ruth, Mays, and Williams.  Those guys saw their WAR from 35 to 40 fall by 40-60% of their peak WAR.

 

BRef has Bonds peak WAR during is prime at age 28, with a WAR of 9.9.

 

He accumulate a WAR of 59.2 at age 35 and beyod.  A remarkable 36.5% of his total career WAR.  Seemed like you could lop off 25 or so wins leaving Bonds 9th all time.  Still an elite player but probably not considered top 3 like any have him now.

 

 

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

 

 

"Top 10 pitchers, regardless of handedness:

Clemens

Cy Young

Greg Maddux

Walter Johnson

Big Unit

Nolan Ryan

Bert Blyleven

Gaylord Perry

Pete Alexander

Steve Carlton"

 

No Satchel Paige? That's some bulljive.

 

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

 

 

 

"Top 10 pitchers, regardless of handedness:

Clemens

Cy Young

Greg Maddux

Walter Johnson

Big Unit

Nolan Ryan

Bert Blyleven

Gaylord Perry

Pete Alexander

Steve Carlton"

 

No Satchel Paige? That's some bulljive.

 

Just based on his limited MLB appearances, Paige doesn't make that particular list.

 

Might he be the best pitcher of his era? Maybe! Bullet Joe Rogan and Smokey Joe Williams likewise don't appear on the list above but are probably in the conversation for top 10 or 20 Pitchers of all-time.  

 

[spinowner]

 

 

 

"Top 10 pitchers, regardless of handedness:

Clemens

Cy Young

Greg Maddux

Walter Johnson

Big Unit

Nolan Ryan

Bert Blyleven

Gaylord Perry

Pete Alexander

Steve Carlton"

 

No Satchel Paige? That's some bulljive.

 

This further points out the absolutely inexplicable delay in Blyleven being elected to the HOF. At the time of his retirement there were only 3 other retired pitchers above him. And he was third in career strikeouts. Repeating for emphasis: THIRD!!! Strikeouts are the pitching equivalent of home runs. Frank Robinson was third or fourth on the home run list when he retired. Can you imagine him having to wait beyond the first ballot? Blyleven should have been a first ballot inductee and the vote shouldn't have been even close. Shameful!

[Pius Jefferson]

If the negro league players are including than Oscar Charleston should be in the conversation for CF. 

[biggentleben]

 

II would like to make one adjustment if I could. Pardon me this is a bit of a grey area.  Ted Williams ended his career 14th in WAR with 123 (BRef).  He led the league in WAR at over 10 at ages 22, 23, 27, and 28.  Of course he missed his age 24, 25, and 26 seasons because he volunteered to fight in WW2.  I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and add 30 WAR to his total.  That brings him to 6th all-time behind Ruth, Young, Johnson, Bonds, and Mays. 

 

That would leave him as your 4th best OF or best DH, depending on where you put Babe Ruth.

Another adjustment could be to Bonds numbers.  Williams for example saw his WAR cut in about half from 35-40, from 10 a year in his prime to about 5 as he got older.  Applying any sort of normal aging curve to Bonds takes off a good chunk of his WAR to get him out of that outfield.

 

Career Lines:

 

Williams  .344, .482 OBP, .634 slugging, .1.116 OPS.  190 OPS+.  Selfless Patriot.

 

Bonds    .298, .444 OBP, .607 slugging, 1.051 OPS, 165 OPS+. Lying cheater and huge jerk.

 

Advantage Williams.  Stolen bases and defense be dammed

 

It was fWAR, not bWAR, and I wasn't putting any argument forward. I was simply stating the numbers.

[biggentleben]

 

 

 

"Top 10 pitchers, regardless of handedness:

Clemens

Cy Young

Greg Maddux

Walter Johnson

Big Unit

Nolan Ryan

Bert Blyleven

Gaylord Perry

Pete Alexander

Steve Carlton"

 

No Satchel Paige? That's some bulljive.

 

 

It's based on fWAR. Paige did not accumulate enough fWAR in the major leagues to appear on that list. Not a personal perspective, but just relaying the overall numbers.

[DaveW]

1.Nick Punto

1a. Babe Ruth

[tobi0040]

 

1.Nick Punto
1a. Babe Ruth

 

The Bambino does not deserve the B.  He goes straight to #2.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

 

1.Nick Punto
1a. Babe Ruth

I dunno, Jason Giambi makes a compelling case here:

https://youtu.be/UTikOHMCNLg

 

[WyoTwin]

ty cobb (ops+ 168) certainly belongs in the conversation.

 

check out charles leerhsen's ty cobb: a terrible beauty (2015). exhaustive research depicts something far beyond than the bigoted, peer-hated, spike-sharpening monster myth. it instead paints cobb as a hot-tempered but misunderstood perfectionist admired by peers who dealt with a suffocating life as the first media-conjured sports superstar. which is not to mention the 4189 hits ...

[Shane Wahl]

Babe Ruth. Far and away.

 

Mays and Johnson are honorable mentions. Williams is too because of his career taking the WWII hit.