Should the Twins be calling the Giants?

[DocBauer]

For the first time in some time, our beloved Twins will be entering spring training with legitimate, viable starting pitching candidates to flesh out the rotation, with legitimate competition, between veterans of different age and experience, and a pair of highly touted and talented youngsters that appear to be ready, and have proved just about all they really can at AAA. There is also a real chance a couple other youngsters could be ready be the second half of the season, September at the latest (it would appear). We could be on the verge, over the next season or two, of actually putting together not only a solid, but even very good to excellent rotation with the likes of Hughes, Santana, Nolasco, Gibson, Meyer, May and Berrios...with a couple other solid arms in potential contention as well.

 

After the past few seasons of general ineffectiveness, injury and AAAA desperation at times, the last thing I really want the Twins to do is dump pitching and end up short again. But even with the potential for real improvement this year, aren't we still in a rebuild mode? Don't we actually have some depth available without having to call the Mexican League to fill a roster spot?

 

So are the SF Giants with a hole in their rotation, and as of yet, no answer to fill it. Should the Twins be on the phone with them?  Nolasco appears healthy. He's actually a very solid SP. His experience is mostly in the NL. The Giants are very familiar with him. If the Twins would expect little back, and maybe throw in some cash, it could be a very nice trade for both teams. Why would the Twins make such a move? To free up additional cash for moves this year, and next, and provide more room for Milone, May and Meyer to fight for the 4th and 5th spots with Pelfrey as a 4th option. And again, the second half of the year may provide additional options. And the Giants...well...they don't want to stand pat. They want to keep a good thing going and need a SP they can count on.

 

On the flip side, the Twins could offer Milone. They shed less salary, salary they can easily afford, but again they open up a rotation spot, gain some sort of prospect,  and don't have to throw cash in on the deal. The Giants get less of a known and experienced quantity, but they also invest less overall, and gain a potentially solid LHSP option.

 

So once again, should the Twins be on the phone with the Giants?

 

(*Note; if the Giants would not be a match, it's not to say other teams might not face a similar injury situation)

[Linus]

Sorry, no. The Twins need all the pitching they can get. Let's worry about too many good pitchers when it happens

[beckmt]

Do not know what the Giants would send back and a salary dump would be very counterproductive.  Twins need all the pitching they can get. 

[Danchat]

Sorry, no. The Twins need all the pitching they can get. Let's worry about too many good pitchers when it happens

I agree. I want to see all of our pitchers in training camp fight for that #5 job. Last year we thought we had flexibility with Worley, Gibson, and Diamond. It turns out two of them were worth nothing (well, Worley had no value with us) and Gibson turned out to be a sure starter. Let's let that kind of competition happen again.

[Physics Guy]

Absolutely not.  I want all of the arms we can get.  We would be lucky to get 25 cents on the dollar in trading Nolasco or Milone.  If Meyer and May are lights out in ST and Nolasco and Milone look healthy and productive, then maybe we try to see what value they might have.

[Molitor4manager]

Without identifying any possible players the Twins could get in return the premise is a non-starter.

[DaveW]

I'd give Nolasco away if someone offered to pick up 80% of his contract, other than that I wouldn't actively try to trade any pitcher unless you were getting good value back.

[Paul Pleiss]

I'd be all for sending Tommy Milone away; I'm not at all sold on his ability away from the spacious foul territory of O.Co.

 

Alternatively, if Tommy Milone changed the pronunciation of his last name to be Miloney (rhymes with bologna)., then I think we should keep him at all costs and likely give him a raise. I'd love to hear Provus talk about putting Tommy "Miloney bologna" on the mound.

[kab21]

Is the goal of this thread to get a PTNBL? 

[iTwins]

I wouldn't make that call until I'm sure May or Meyer are ready for the show and are going to be better than Nolasco (and even then, the depth isn't a bad thing...)

 

I definitely wouldn't make that call to make room for Milone or Pelfrey. Nolasco is better than both of them everyday of the week, twice on Sundays.

 

Unless the Twins need the money to sign Scherzer - (ha!) I'd keep Nolasco in the fold for now.

[diehardtwinsfan]

If they wanted Milone, I'd probably do it for whatever TR could get. That said, I suspect that the Giants have something setup to block all calls from Terry Ryan.

[nicksaviking]

If the Twins can get out from under the three additional years of Nolasco, I'd certainly listen.  This team isn't rebuilding as it currently stands, they have way too many 30-year-olds.  They seem to be doing the "restocking" bit, though that generally is only done by winning teams that want to keep their momentum and large market teams that can more easily absorb bad contracts.

 

I'd also listen on Milone.  His talent looks to be very minimal and I really don't want the siren sound that all lefties seem to have to enchant this team.  There is better upside just about everywhere you look though I worry his soft-tossed whispers will put a spell on someone who ought to know better.

[kab21]

Nobody is picking up Nolasco's contract.  It's just not possible unless the Twins are taking on an equally ugly contract.  I suggested a Nolasco for Crawford swap but even that was unlikely to ever happen.  It would have to be a worse contract/player.  Crawford is actually pretty good (just not 20M/yr good).

 

I'm not even sure the Twins have way too many 30 yr olds.  Santana and Nolasco in the rotation.  Suzuki, Mauer and Torii in the lineup.  The bullpen has a few old guys taking up spots like Duensing/Fien but I doubt they are around for long.  There are few guys that don't have guaranteed spots even though they have guaranteed money (like Pelfrey).  I guess if your goal was to have no 30 yr olds then they have too many but I don't subscribe to the theory that rebuilding teams must have zero veterans.

[071063]

The Twins trading starting pitching at this point seem ridiculous.  It has been their biggest issue the last few years and, as of now, the still really only have 3 guys that I feel are assured spots in the rotation next year and they are Hughes, Santana and Gibson.  Nolasco had a bad year but it is WAY to early to give up on him.  I think the same goes for Milone.

 

As for May and Meyer, neither one has proven that they are ready to be a major league starter.  Give them a chance in the bull pen and once they have some success there, then you can decide how to proceed.

 

The only starting pitcher the Twins have that they should be considering trading is Pelfrey and good luck getting anyone to give you more than a ham sandwich for him.  He would be strictly a salary dump.

[goulik]

  I guess if your goal was to have no 30 yr olds then they have too many but I don't subscribe to the theory that rebuilding teams must have zero veterans.

I have always believed that veterans that have experienced winning, playoff runs, and star status are necessary components of acclimating young players to the bigs. That is why I didn't hate the Hunter signing with the CF prospects like Schafer and Hicks who have not lived up to early minor league projections and of course our future, Buxton, on the way up.

 

Having said that, I don't see Nolasco or Pelfrey as guys that fit that mold.

[Otto von Ballpark]

So are the SF Giants with a hole in their rotation, and as of yet, no answer to fill it. Should the Twins be on the phone with them?

Do the Giants have a hole in their rotation?

 

1. M. Bumgarner

2. M. Cain

3. T. Hudson

4. J. Peavy

5. T. Lincecum

6. Y. Petit

 

They also have a couple decent SP prospects slotting in at AAA.  They might want some depth, but I am not sure they'd want a career 91 ERA+ 32 year old who's never really pitched out of the bullpen, is owed a fair bit of money over the next 3 years, and is coming off the worst season of his career.

 

Milone would obviously be more interesting, although his stock is also low.  At this point, given his performance in MN and late season health concerns, I think you might be lucky to get back something equivalent what we gave up for him (Sam Fuld).

[REPETE]

Only way ANY of these pitchers should be considered trade bait is if they all pitch lights out in spring training, and we truly have a "glut".  If that happens, there's always plenty of teams looking for a starting pitcher due to injuries.  But if the injury bug hits the Twins, we'd be shaking our heads asking why we got rid of pitchers?

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

If the Giants want to do another one of those "Liriano/Nathan/BOOF for A.J." deals, by all means.

[nicksaviking]

 

I'm not even sure the Twins have way too many 30 yr olds.  Santana and Nolasco in the rotation.  Suzuki, Mauer and Torii in the lineup.  The bullpen has a few old guys taking up spots like Duensing/Fien but I doubt they are around for long.  There are few guys that don't have guaranteed spots even though they have guaranteed money (like Pelfrey).  I guess if your goal was to have no 30 yr olds then they have too many but I don't subscribe to the theory that rebuilding teams must have zero veterans.

That seems like too many 30-year-olds to me.  It's only a 25-man roster and it looks like they're going to have at least 10 players over 30, probably only a coule will be 25 or under.

 

It would be different if the 30-year-olds were Mauer, Perkins and even Duensing, a few organizational guys who the club wanted to build around, but a majority of the 30-year-olds are new to the team.  You don't normally see that from rebuilding clubs.  I think it might work out, but this isn't rebuilding.  Ten veterans is a hell of a lot different than zero, there is some middle ground.

[TheLeviathan]

Spycake = /thread

[Dantes929]

Not really sure why anyone is down on Meyer or May and want to promote so conservatively.    I get the impression people think they haven't earned it because they have not done much in the minors and haven't earned  promotions.    Actually May had an excellent year and considering the limitations the Twins put on Meyer for innings and pitch counts he did remarkably well also.   He had a lot of really high quality starts that ended with the Twins pulling him after 80 pitches.   His ERA was pretty good but could have been better if he was allowed to pitch more while pitching really well.   May was fantastic before his calf muscle pull.   These guys earned their shots and I don't know why they are being handled as if they are huge risks.  They have very good stuff so its not like their minor league numbers was done with smoke and mirrors.    Fans blame Twins for slow promotions and then advocate the same path.   I don't get it.   Baumgarter, Verlander, Greinke, etc. were all rookies at one time.    I don't think they had a bunch of plan B's so back them up.     I want a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Gibson, Nolasco or Milone, and May with Meyer the first one to replace any injured or ineffective.   I would be ok with Nolasco or Milone gone.     Berrios is coming soon and we always have Darnell or Johnson to give us at least what Nolasco gave us last year.    May and Meyer represent the very real possibility of quality or quantity.  I don't like the anticipating injury or failure just because we have seen so much of it the past 4 years.   No team has enough to depth to insure against all their starters being hurt.   

[mikelink45]

Yes and everyone else that has questions about starting pitchers.  I do not want Nolasco in the lineup or Pelfrey or Milone.  Lets start being aggressive with promotions.  Lets get the pitchers in who will lead the future and next year trade Santana.  I am looking at Billy Beane and his aggressive work - which reminds me - Hughes next year too.

[brvama]

Yes and everyone else that has questions about starting pitchers.  I do not want Nolasco in the lineup or Pelfrey or Milone.  Lets start being aggressive with promotions.  Lets get the pitchers in who will lead the future and next year trade Santana.  I am looking at Billy Beane and his aggressive work - which reminds me - Hughes next year too.

 

i understand that there is a HUGE 'Billy Beane" fan club in MN, however, I get tired of hearing how we should be trading players as he has done.  IIRC, the one reason forwarded on the building of Target Field was so that the Twins could retain their stars.  And now, it seems, many want to go back to those days via Beane's model.  Oakland and Beane don't have the option to retain many of their players, so their only choice is to trade good performing players.  He was able to do this b/c of the talent they were bringing up.

 

What you are suggesting is to maintain the rebuilding program into the future.  Let's just rid ourselves of quality players/pitchers and bring in new guys.  The pitching staff is, not only being fixed, but also having quality.  A blend of vets and youth is good.  The time for trading will come, but for now it seems fruitless to re-expose a weakness by trading good pitching so that we can bring up our prospects that have yet to prove they are good replacements.  So far, it is just hope they they will be good.  And if they aren't we fall back to where we started.  

 

I'm not a big fan of Pelfry, Milone or Nolasco, however, their tenure with the Twins will be determined in short order.   

[Dantes929]

How exactly do they prove they are good replacements when Pelfrey and Nolasco are getting the innings?   If you are not a big fan of Pelfrey and Nolasco why do you want them around?   Pelfrey and Nolasco both have 4.5 career ERA's mostly in the NL.   Is this the good pitching you want to avoid trading?     Actually I am just playing devil's advocate here but for the most part I want May in the rotation to start and I want Meyer to be the next guy up.   I am hoping Pelfrey is not above them in the pecking order and I am hoping only one of Milone and Nolasco are above them.   I am ok with waiting a bit but at some point you have to make room.     Part of rebuilding is letting the young guys take their lumps.   

[Paul Pleiss]

The Twins should be calling the Giants, and the rest of the teams in the league. What exactly they are discussing, however, should be another issue. That being said, I hope the Twins front office is actively looking for solutions to fixing a club following their 4th consecutive 90 loss season. Make the calls. Don't necessarily make the deals, but if it makes sense, then by all means, make the deal. But first, make the calls.

[brvama]

How exactly do they prove they are good replacements when Pelfrey and Nolasco are getting the innings?   If you are not a big fan of Pelfrey and Nolasco why do you want them around?   Pelfrey and Nolasco both have 4.5 career ERA's mostly in the NL.   Is this the good pitching you want to avoid trading?     Actually I am just playing devil's advocate here but for the most part I want May in the rotation to start and I want Meyer to be the next guy up.   I am hoping Pelfrey is not above them in the pecking order and I am hoping only one of Milone and Nolasco are above them.   I am ok with waiting a bit but at some point you have to make room.     Part of rebuilding is letting the young guys take their lumps.   

First, I'm not a big fan of them, but they ARE around.  So it is my point to find the best out of the situation.  Some of my objection, is the idea of trading assets from a position that still isn't a strength. but improving.  SP has been miserable, but it's getting better.  If you can trade them after LY and improve the staff, excellent.  But right now they have little trade value.  

 

Totally agree with you on May and Meyer (see boldface) and have posted that on another TD thread.  IF Pelfrey is retained he should go to the pen, otherwise release or trade him.  I'd slot Nolasco as the fourth member of the staff and May as the fifth.  Meyer and then Milone would be the first and second to be called up from AAA. 

 

By May 31, much of this should be sorted out with injuries, trades, or performances.  If they all are performing well, especially Nolasco, then a trade is likely this summer.  IMO, Santana is really Nolasco's replacement.  I think by July, if not earlier, we both may get our wish of Meyer on the staff.  I hope it is much earlier.  

 

Not to derail this thread, I agree with Paul.  EVERY avenue should be explored to improve this club, especially trades.  

[Dantes929]

Funny Bvana,  I was kind of looking at Santana as Nolasco's replacement also.    Maybe I don't delve into the metrics as much as I should but Nolasco's career just doesn't look that great to me.   4.5 career ERA mostly in the NL.  How is he different than Pelfrey or Correia?   Milone at least has a sub 4 ERA in the AL.   I hope I am wrong and Nolasco does great for us but I would rather see Meyer or May even if they have a 5 ERA for a while.  

[brvama]

Can't really disagree with you. Dante.  I will be greatly disappointed if both are not pitching on the Twins by mid-July.  For now, I wait and 'hope'.