When Will the Twins Retire Radke's Number?

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

He's got the credentials, he pitched his entire career here, and is the epitome of a Twins pitcher. #6 in career WAR as a Twin, NINE 200+IP seasons (4 220+), spent 12 excellent years in Minnesota, and is just a good guy. Tony Oliva and Kent Hrbek have had their numbers retired and I don't think either were as big as contributors over their careers. Both were very good, however, let's not get into that. Since #22 has been disgraced by the likes of Danny Valencia, Matt Carson, and Wilkin Ramirez most recently, can we do it a little justice?

[notoriousgod71]

He's got the credentials, he pitched his entire career here, and is the epitome of a Twins pitcher. #6 in career WAR as a Twin, NINE 200+IP seasons (4 220+), spent 12 excellent years in Minnesota, and is just a good guy. Tony Oliva and Kent Hrbek have had their numbers retired and I don't think either were as big as contributors over their careers. Both were very good, however, let's not get into that. Since #22 has been disgraced by the likes of Danny Valencia, Matt Carson, and Wilkin Ramirez most recently, can we do it a little justice?

 

The only thing I agree with.

[cmathewson]

They retired Bert's number only after he was admitted to the Hall of Fame. That is what it will take for Radke. I.e. the number will not be retired.

[Kwak]

Radke wasn't special and such an accolade would be woefully wrong.

[Benchwarmerjim]

when? when the attendance falls through the roof at Target Field and need a promotion to rally around.

 

but really, Radke is a good representative for the Twins and a great player and is the Twins Hall of Fame and thats good by me. His number gets retired if he goes to Cooperstown.

[Zephrin]

The next number the Twins will retire is 7.

[notoriousgod71]

The next number the Twins will retire is 7.

 

Hocking was awesome.

[stringer bell]

How about 33? I think Hrbek and Morneau are comparable. Morneau had more than 5000 PAs with an OPS+ of 121. He was an All-Star four times, won two Silver Sluggers, and an MVP. Hrbek was a 128 OPS+ in 12 seasons, won two World Series and made one All-Star team. I didn't think Herbie's or Bert's numbers should have been retired, but if Hrbek's standard is the height of the bar, I think Morneau belongs as well, but maybe they can leave out the statue.

[LaBombo]

Hocking was awesome.

No offense to you or the Hockster, but it's pretty obvious the poster you were replying to was referring to treasured Twins franchise cornerstone Scottie Ullger...

[Joe A. Preusser]

Radke was a great player over his career. He won 20 games in a single year...for the Twins. Santana won the Cy Young in a year he won only 16 games. Take a moment to digest that one. Radke deserves to be inducted into the Twins HOF. Not the MLB HOF, but the Twins HOF? YES!

[Joe A. Preusser]

No offense to you or the Hockster, but it's pretty obvious the poster you were replying to was referring to treasured Twins franchise cornerstone Scottie Ullger...

 

One of my favorite memories in Twins history is Hocking snapping a single over the third baseman with a flick of his wrist. He wasn't an All-Star, but he played hard the Twins way.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I come to these boards to be entertained sometimes. I love reading people completely dismissing the idea of retiring Radke's number. Radke's numbers stand up well to Kaat and Blyleven. Radke was the shining light of the late 1990s. Radke never said the word "me" in his entire career - can't say that about Bert. In his final season Radke basically pitched with a broken arm during the long stretch drive (we put guys on the DL for 'fatigue' now). Evaluating guys for these things is more than looking at the sum total of their statistics. I'd say go for it.

[raindog]

Wow..I'm not sure if his number should be retired, but Radke was a great pitcher. My mind is blown that he's being dismissed as "not special" or "epitome of a Twins pitcher".

[Boom Boom]

Radke was at least as good of a pitcher as Hrbek was a first baseman.

[nicksaviking]

Wow..I'm not sure if his number should be retired, but Radke was a great pitcher. My mind is blown that he's being dismissed as "not special" or "epitome of a Twins pitcher".

 

I think great is pretty exaggerated. I love Radke, but a guy who is off the HOF ballot after his first year of eligibility isn't great. He was very good but had an ERA under 4.00 only four times.

 

I'm not sure how proud I would be of retiring the number of guys who are the "epitome of a Twins pitcher," that's not very high praise. I might even call it a derogatory statement. That's why #57 will be the next number retired by the Twins. Santana was definitely not the epitome of a Twins pitcher, that's why he was two-time Cy Young winner. If Kaat and Viola aren't getting their number retired, Radke shouldn't.

[FSP]

How about 33? I think Hrbek and Morneau are comparable. Morneau had more than 5000 PAs with an OPS+ of 121. He was an All-Star four times, won two Silver Sluggers, and an MVP. Hrbek was a 128 OPS+ in 12 seasons, won two World Series and made one All-Star team. I didn't think Herbie's or Bert's numbers should have been retired, but if Hrbek's standard is the height of the bar, I think Morneau belongs as well, but maybe they can leave out the statue.

 

Agree on Hrbek and Bert, but I don't think it is fair to use Hrbek as the bar for future players. I think they made an exception for him because of the two WS and being a local guy and fan favorite. IMO retired numbers should go to superstars who show a commitment to staying with the team and Mauer is the only one that meets that criteria.

[nicksaviking]

Radke was at least as good of a pitcher as Hrbek was a first baseman.

 

I for one was never sold on Hrbek getting his number retired. I wasn't against it, but it seemed as much to do with his status as a hometown hero as anything else. However, he was a better player than Radke. At the very least, he was a vital cog of the World Series teams.

 

I want the elite numbers retired, the guys who fans of other teams would also revere as great players. Basically Hall of Famers or those that we may view as close enough for consideration.

[Boom Boom]

I for one was never sold on Hrbek getting his number retired. I wasn't against it, but it seemed as much to do with his status as a hometown hero as anything else. However, he was a better player than Radke. At the very least, he was a vital cog of the World Series teams.

 

I want the elite numbers retired, the guys who fans of other teams would also revere as great players. Basically Hall of Famers or those that we may view as close enough for consideration.

 

I'm not arguing for the exclusion of Hrbek as much as the inclusion of Radke. If you want to judge the player by postseason success, Hrbek wins. But Radke significantly out-WARs Hrbek, so I don't believe Hrbek is a better player.

 

If Radke was originally from Minnesota, he'd already have his number retired.

[Mr. Brooks]

Radke was a great player over his career. He won 20 games in a single year...for the Twins. Santana won the Cy Young in a year he won only 16 games. Take a moment to digest that one. Radke deserves to be inducted into the Twins HOF. Not the MLB HOF, but the Twins HOF? YES!

 

I'm not quite sure what we are supposed to be "digesting"?

Wins are a team stat, and not something that a pitcher has much control over.

[JB_Iowa]

Radke is in the Twins hall of fame. Minnesota Twins Hall of Famers | twinsbaseball.com: History

 

Retiring his number is another consideration altogether. I'm not sold on it but I'm not totally opposed either.

 

(Seems like the two concepts were getting confused somewhere up above).

[MinnesotaMike]

Radke makes me think of my high school football team. We had some ok players that helped us win but we're not good enough to be even all conference, but that didn't diminish that they were decent players. I guess longevity and mediocrity for me does not earn someone a great honor like retiring his number.

[Rosterman]

A good argument...especially over the likes of Perry, Pascual, Santana and even guys like Reardon and Aggie. But that's what the Hall of Fame is for. Rettiring a number is for the utra special player in franchise history.....

[ThePuck]

Radke was a great player over his career. He won 20 games in a single year...for the Twins. Santana won the Cy Young in a year he won only 16 games. Take a moment to digest that one.

 

There's nothing to digest there cause it's not true.

 

In any event, the win/loss stat is a horrible way to judge pitchers...as evidence by the fact Santana finished 3rd in 2005 while Colon won...likely finishing 3rd because he only won 16 games. He had an ERA of 2.87, over 230 IP, while leading the league in ERA+, Ks, WHIP, H/9, K/9. The only thing Colon had him beat in was the win-loss record.

 

Radke finshed 3rd in the year he won 20 and an argument could be made he shouldn't have finished that high, but he definitely shouldn't have finished higher.

[matthew0211]

I'm probably in the minority, but retiring numbers should be reserved for upper-echelon Hall-of-Famers only. Now, "upper-echelon" is definitely subjective and I don't have any specific criteria for what that would be, but my overall theory is the more numbers that are retired, the less meaning it has, and that honor should be reserved for the truly greats of the game.

 

In my humble opinion, the only Twin that should have his number retired is Harmon. I could probably be talked into Carew. But that's it.

[raindog]

I think just about any HoF player should have his number retired, especially on a team without a lot of those. I couldn't imagine Bert's number not being retired. And the other Twins numbers retired are pretty reasonable. Maybe not Hrbek, but the hometown thing is special.

 

Going back to Radke, he probably shouldn't have his number retired. I just think people should appreciate how good he was. I probably overstated it earlier, but he was so solid. And he pitched a lot in a offense heavy era.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I'm not quite sure what we are supposed to be "digesting"?

Wins are a team stat, and not something that a pitcher has much control over.

 

Radke won 20 games on a 68-94 TEAM. What argument are you trying to make? That the Twins actually won those games for him? This isn't a CC Sabathia case where the pitcher gets wins even when he has a bad performance. It's more of a case that the Twins didn't LOSE those for him. "Not something a pitcher has much control over" is a false statement. Who has more control of a game than the starting pitcher(s)? You allow 6 runs and there's a good chance you don't get the win. You allow 1 run there's a good chance you do win. Quite a bit of control there, but obviously not complete control.

 

I think averaging 204.5IP per season for 12 years is remarkable in itself. A 4.22 career ERA when you pitch that much is pretty great and also consider his career occurred during the the emergence of the steroid era. Kaat only produced 26-27 WAR in Minnesota. Ditto for Viola who only spent 1/2 his career as a Twin. Radke nearly doubles that with 45.6. Santana only pitched 8 years in Minnesota and gave us 6 great ones. I don't think that's enough even with him being the best pitcher in baseball at the time. Furthermore, I don't understand why you all are alluding to him getting more consideration than Radke after the trade debacle. Radke is the best Twins pitcher of all time in terms of value provided besides Bert Blyleven.

[twinsnorth49]

Radke was a great player over his career. He won 20 games in a single year...for the Twins. Santana won the Cy Young in a year he won only 16 games. Take a moment to digest that one. Radke deserves to be inducted into the Twins HOF. Not the MLB HOF, but the Twins HOF? YES!

 

I'm not quite sure what we are supposed to be "digesting"?

Wins are a team stat, and not something that a pitcher has much control over.

 

If nothing else, this post illustrates how silly wins are as a valid metric for a pitcher's peformance.

[ThePuck]

Radke won 20 games on a 68-94 TEAM. What argument are you trying to make? That the Twins actually won those games for him? This isn't a CC Sabathia case where the pitcher gets wins even when he has a bad performance. It's more of a case that the Twins didn't LOSE those for him. "Not something a pitcher has much control over" is a false statement. Who has more control of a game than the starting pitcher(s)? You allow 6 runs and there's a good chance you don't get the win. You allow 1 run there's a good chance you do win. Quite a bit of control there, but obviously not complete control.

 

I think averaging 204.5IP per season for 12 years is remarkable in itself. A 4.22 career ERA when you pitch that much is pretty great. Kaat only produced 26-27 WAR in Minnesota. Ditto for Viola who only spent 1/2 his career as a Twin. Santana only pitched 8 years in Minnesota. Furthermore, I don't understand why you all are alluding to him getting more consideration than Radke after the trade debacle. Radke is the best Twins pitcher of all time in terms of value provided besides Bert Blyleven.

 

The games Radke started that year when we won the Twins scored at least least 11 runs 5 times, at least 8 runs 13 times, at least 6 runs 16 times. As far as his wins specifically, 16 times at least 5 runs scored.

 

Compare that to someone like King Felix who went 13-12 one season, while having 30 quality starts out of his 34 start. His team only scored more than 6 runs 3 times. In his 13 wins specifically, they only scored at least 5 runs 4 times.

[ThePuck]

If nothing else, this post illustrates how silly wins are as a valid metric for a pitcher's peformance.

 

Santana never won the CY Young while having only 16 wins.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

The games Radke started that year when we won that year the Twins scored at least least 11 runs 5 times, at least 8 runs 13 times, at least 6 runs 16 times.

 

Compare that to someone like King Felix who went 13-12 one season, while having 30 quality starts out of his 34 start. His team only scored more than 6 runs 3 times.

 

The Twins also lost 10 games where Radke provided Quality Starts. Only 2 of those being the bare minimum 6IP, 3 ER. Actually that's 2004, forgive me.