When Will the Twins Retire Radke's Number?

[Benchwarmerjim]

Radke won 20 games on a 68-94 TEAM. What argument are you trying to make? That the Twins actually won those games for him? This isn't a CC Sabathia case where the pitcher gets wins even when he has a bad performance. It's more of a case that the Twins didn't LOSE those for him. "Not something a pitcher has much control over" is a false statement. Who has more control of a game than the starting pitcher(s)? You allow 6 runs and there's a good chance you don't get the win. You allow 1 run there's a good chance you do win. Quite a bit of control there, but obviously not complete control.

 

what about the years he went 12-14, 11-6 etc with essentially the same bad talent on the mid to late 90s?

 

Radke was good. Very good. He is in the Twins HoF. He wont be forgotten by those who followed the team from the doldrums to the playoffs. He just doesnt have enough (no Cy Youngs, no leading the team to a World Series, etc) to reach 'retire number' status.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

The games Radke started that year when we won the Twins scored at least least 11 runs 5 times, at least 8 runs 13 times, at least 6 runs 16 times. As far as his wins specifically, 16 times at least 5 runs scored.

 

Compare that to someone like King Felix who went 13-12 one season, while having 30 quality starts out of his 34 start. His team only scored more than 6 runs 3 times. In his 13 wins specifically, they only scored at least 5 runs 4 times.

 

Radke's numbers in games he won

1.97 ERA, .923 WHIP, 4.35 K/BB, 4 CG

[ThePuck]

The Twins also lost 10 games where Radke provided Quality Starts. Only 2 of those being the bare minimum 6IP, 3 ER. Actually that's 2004, forgive me.

 

No one is saying he didn't pitch very well that year...what we're saying is win/losses is a bad barometer to judge pitching. Wins should just be a team stat.

[ThePuck]

Radke's numbers in games he won

1.97 ERA, .923 WHIP, 4.35 K/BB, 4 CG

 

 

and he would have won those games anyway with ALL the run support he got. Again, no one is saying he didn't pitch well, but he got huge run support.

 

Now, pointing to the stats you're pointing to NOW, in this post, those are some numbers to sink your teeth into.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Random tidbit since we're talking about him. Bronson Arroyo is basically a poor man's Brad Radke. And he makes 10 million+ a year. Sure contracts aren't a good metric, but it's something to consider. Especially because Arroyo earns that money.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

and he would have won those games anyway with ALL the run support he got. Again, no one is saying he didn't pitch well, but he got huge run support.

 

Now, pointing to the stats you're pointing to NOW, in this post, those are some numbers to sink your teeth into.

 

Like right now?

[ThePuck]

Like right now?

 

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here...so, maybe :-)

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

No one is saying he didn't pitch very well that year...what we're saying is win/losses is a bad barometer to judge pitching. Wins should just be a team stat.

 

I agree with that and I hardly put any value on them either unless they stick out like that season. Wins aren't an impressive stat, but when you get wins in nearly 1/3 of your teams' games, that is impressive.

[ThePuck]

I agree with that and I hardly put any value on them either unless they stick out like that season. Wins aren't an impressive stat, but when you get wins in nearly 1/3 of your teams' games, that is impressive.

 

No one is saying it isn't...or at least I'm not, but with the run support he got in those games, he was gonna win a huge chunk anyway. He did his part, for sure, in 18 of those wins. In 2005, Santana had 10 no decision. 8 of those were quality starts. The other two, he gave up 4. With run support like Radke got when he won 20, Santana very likely gets at least 20 instead of being stuck at 16.

[twinsnorth49]

Santana never won the CY Young while having only 16 wins.

Yes I know, it' silly regardless...wins, not the poster.

[Guest USAFChief]

I'm opposed to retiring Radke's number. At least until I'm convinced he couldn't still crack the current team's rotation.

[nicksaviking]

Random tidbit since we're talking about him. Bronson Arroyo is basically a poor man's Brad Radke. And he makes 10 million+ a year. Sure contracts aren't a good metric, but it's something to consider. Especially because Arroyo earns that money.

 

I don't understand the argument. Arroyo will not and should not be considered for number retirement. Ever. Radke got exactly two HOF votes. He is not an all time great player.

[raindog]

I'm opposed to retiring Radke's number. At least until I'm convinced he couldn't still crack the current team's rotation.

Yeah...I would not doubt it.

[cmathewson]

Radke was a great pitcher for the Twins. Blyleven and Kaat were great pitchers for the Twins and handful of other franchises. Maybe if his shoulder had not disintegrated at age 33 and he were able to pitch another seven years...

[gil4]

Maybe if his shoulder had not disintegrated at age 33 and he were able to pitch another seven years...

 

He didn't seem to need that shoulder to keep pitching. What he was able to do that final year was amazing, considering he probably couldn't even comb his hair without pain meds.

[SweetOne69]

I don't think that Radke's number will be retired, nor should it be.

 

Other that Oliva, Hrbek, and TK, all of the Retired Numbers are HOF'ers. Many believe that Oliva should be there as well and if his career wouldn't have been shortened by injury he would've been.

 

TK is the all time winningest Twins' Manager and led the club to 2 WS Titles.

 

The only real questionable retiree it Hrbek. Even though he is 2nd All Time for HR and RBI as a Twin, he really had his number retired for being a hometown boy and playing his entire career in Minnesota.

[Marta Shearing]

Radke's the one who started this whole pitch-to-contact disaster. I propose a Radke jersey burning ceremony to lift the curse.

[Marta Shearing]

Radke was a great pitcher for the Twins. Blyleven and Kaat were great pitchers for the Twins and handful of other franchises. Maybe if his shoulder had not disintegrated at age 33 and he were able to pitch another seven years...

Im still puzzled why he elected rehab over surgery when the injury occurred during the 2005 season. Could have used a healthy radke in the playoffs.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I don't understand the argument. Arroyo will not and should not be considered for number retirement. Ever. Radke got exactly two HOF votes. He is not an all time great player.

 

Radke is just about twice the player Arroyo is if we go by WAR, but their peripherals are sort of similar and they make a good comparison. Arroyo wasn't a career Red, Pirate, or Red Sox so there isn't a team that would really be best retiring it anyway. HOWEVER! Arroyo is a very good pitcher and one of the most underappreciated (at least not monetarily) in the MLB. Right now, Arroyo is the best at the "control game" method of pitching and that Radke was much better than that is cool I guess. My argument is that Radke was a borderline elite pitcher (never an ace) who spent his entire career as a Twin. In my book, the standards for number retiring don't start with HOF. It's these types of players that should also make the cut. Besides Puckett and Killer (not technically, but basically), there isn't one HOF Twin that spent all their seasons here. A career of very good, borderline elite to me is pretty close value to a HOF with a majority of time in Minnesota.

[SweetOne69]

Radke is just about twice the player Arroyo is if we go by WAR, but their peripherals are sort of similar and they make a good comparison. Arroyo wasn't a career Red, Pirate, or Red Sox so there isn't a team that would really be best retiring it anyway. HOWEVER! Arroyo is a very good pitcher and one of the most underappreciated (at least not monetarily) in the MLB. Right now, Arroyo is the best at the "control game" method of pitching and that Radke was much better than that is cool I guess. My argument is that Radke was a borderline elite pitcher (never an ace) who spent his entire career as a Twin. In my book, the standards for number retiring don't start with HOF. It's these types of players that should also make the cut. Besides Puckett and Killer (not technically, but basically), there isn't one HOF Twin that spent all their seasons here. A career of very good, borderline elite to me is pretty close value to a HOF with a majority of time in Minnesota.

 

I disagree. That is what the Team's HOF is for, to acknowledge players that performed exceptionally well while playing for them.

 

A retired # should be a rare event and other than for special circumstances MLB HOF status should be required to have your number considered for retirement. After all there are only a limited quantity of numbers available (around 100) and 30+ are required to for the team and staff.

[nicksaviking]

The Astros have retired nine numbers. I remeber going to a game, which was before Bagwell and Biggio had retired and thinking it was kind of embarassing that the Astros had six numbers retired and only Nolan Ryan was anything close to an all time great.

 

Similarly aged franchises like the Royals and Mets have only retired three numbers, the Brewers only four, the Rangers one. Wade Boggs and pre-steroid Roger Clemens haven't even gotten their numbers retired by the Red Sox.

 

Radke wasn't elite, he was never close to elite, he was just very good. I'd be embarassed if we as Twins fans retired his number, basically telling the rest of the baseball world, "This is the best we've contributed to our sport."

 

I think the notion that he spent his entire career with one club isn't a very good qualifyer for this distinction. After all, it's not their fault that Kaat, Perry, Viola and Santana got traded. They were all better players and if Radke got his number retired, it would mean the Twins would need to retire about a dozen more that are better than him.

[zchrz]

After trying so hard to make a Radke clone out of all the soft tossing control pitchers they have drafted and aquired, once one finally succeeds they want to be able to slap a Radke jersey on him and "say see hes back, Terry Ryan/ Rick Anderson know what they are doing."

[SweetOne69]

During their tenures as Twins, Radke and Blyleven had similar W/L records (Blyleven had 1 more win and Radke 1 more Loss). They also pitched similar innings (Bert had 100 more IP). But Radke's ERA was almost 1 run higher and Bert had about 600 more K's.

 

To be honest, while I enjoyed watch Radke pitch, he was basically a league average pitcher.

[ThePuck]

During their tenures as Twins, Radke and Blyleven had similar W/L records (Blyleven had 1 more win and Radke 1 more Loss). They also pitched similar innings (Bert had 100 more IP). But Radke's ERA was almost 1 run higher and Bert had about 600 more K's.

 

To be honest, while I enjoyed watch Radke pitch, he was basically a league average pitcher.

 

In fairness, they pitched in two different eras. Bert's ERA+ as a Twins was 118, Radke's was 113 and Radke pitched in the steroid era. Not saying Radke was as good as Bert, but a 113 ERA+ for a career is a bit better than league average. Jack Morris only had an ERA+ of 105.

[snepp]

In fairness, they pitched in two different eras. Bert's ERA+ as a Twins was 118, Radke's was 113 and Radke pitched in the steroid era. Not saying Radke was as good as Bert, but a 113 ERA+ for a career is a bit better than league average. Jack Morris only had an ERA+ of 105.

 

And for the cybermetricians in the house, 2 WAR would be an "average" starter. Radke eclipsed that mark nearly every season, while averaging a little better than 3.5 per season for his career.

 

He certainly wasn't "basically a league average pitcher."

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

The Astros have retired nine numbers. I remeber going to a game, which was before Bagwell and Biggio had retired and thinking it was kind of embarassing that the Astros had six numbers retired and only Nolan Ryan was anything close to an all time great.

 

Similarly aged franchises like the Royals and Mets have only retired three numbers, the Brewers only four, the Rangers one. Wade Boggs and pre-steroid Roger Clemens haven't even gotten their numbers retired by the Red Sox.

 

Radke wasn't elite, he was never close to elite, he was just very good. I'd be embarassed if we as Twins fans retired his number, basically telling the rest of the baseball world, "This is the best we've contributed to our sport."

 

I think the notion that he spent his entire career with one club isn't a very good qualifyer for this distinction. After all, it's not their fault that Kaat, Perry, Viola and Santana got traded. They were all better players and if Radke got his number retired, it would mean the Twins would need to retire about a dozen more that are better than him.

 

About a dozen more when he's #6 in Twins WAR?

[John Bonnes]

I think a Radke was a great pitcher - not HOF level, but great. But retired numbers for this franchise have, with the exception of hometown Hrbek, been HOF-caliber players. Radke isn't that.

 

But anyone who is one of the top 5 or 10 pitchers all-time for a 50 year franchise gets to be recognized as "great."

[stringer bell]

Radke belongs in the Twins Hall of Fame without question. No more, no less. Please let's stop being slaves to WAR. It is one measure, but I don't think it is the be-all or end-all.