2 outs away from his 3rd straight complete game

[Oldgoat_MN]

I'm outraged at the amount of outrage present in every single forum post on this site.

 

You rock!

[Brock Beauchamp]

I thought he should have stayed in and then started the first two innings of the following game.

 

Let 'em play, Gardy!

[notoriousgod71]

This is how I feel about the situation:

 

Baseball Shaving Cream TV Commercial - YouTube

[Linus]

Wow. Classic TD - 63 posts complaining about a shutout victory.

[ashbury]

Wow. Classic TD - 63 posts complaining about a shutout victory.

 

A little fewer than that - some were complaints about the complaints. I'm thinking of lodging a complaint.

[twinsnorth49]

Wow. Classic TD - 63 posts complaining about a shutout victory.

 

Uncorrect, some are not complaining, including I.

 

Besides, the title of the thread was not, "was everyone happy with Andrew Albers performance against KC"?

[ThePuck]

Uncorrect, some are not complaining, including I.

 

Besides, the title of the thread was not, "was everyone happy with Andrew Albers performance against KC"?

 

Exactly. The OPs post said, 'Now the question, was it right to not let him finish or was Gardy right to protect his arm?'. Once a person reads that, they had to know some would agree with Gardy's call and some wouldn't. If you didn't want to see the posts not agreeing with Gardy's decision, why keep reading? Is it so you can complain about the complaining (which of course is okay to do and not the LEAST BIT hypocritical). By complaining about people disagreeing with the call (being negative) you're basically saying, don't answer the OPs question.

 

Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue, maybe people were too lazy to read the OP and didn't know what he was asking, or maybe it's the never-ending quest by some posters to have every post be a cheerleading, ignore the problems, 'positive', glass is always half full kind of place to chat.

 

However it is, if people can't talk about EXACTLY the point of a thread in the thread, then what's the point? Why not just delete the thread entirely and all threads that will lead to someone daring to questions the decisions of Gardy, Ryan and the rest?

 

Anyone else find it funny that no player is off limits to discuss their good points and bad point, but Gardy and Ryan, for some, are off limits less you be deemed 'negative'?

[Alex]

Maybe all of this ridiculous caution is what is causing all these injuries.

 

You don't get stronger by doing something less. Let them pitch. If they're going to get injured they're going to get injured. Guys like Strasburg, Chamberlain, any Twins pitcher are babied to no end and they are injured all the time. Restricting pitch counts doesn't seem to be working. Arm injuries are at an all time high.

 

If you really believe this you should look into the studies that have been done on the matter. Especially look at the career case studies of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, who had a holdover manager who didn't believe in pitch counts early in their career at a time when most managers had been convinced they were important.

[notoriousgod71]

If you really believe this you should look into the studies that have been done on the matter. Especially look at the career case studies of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, who had a holdover manager who didn't believe in pitch counts early in their career at a time when most managers had been convinced they were important.

 

Like I said some guys are just going to get hurt no matter how much we baby them.

[jay]

Maybe all of this ridiculous caution is what is causing all these injuries.

 

You don't get stronger by doing something less. Let them pitch. If they're going to get injured they're going to get injured. Guys like Strasburg, Chamberlain, any Twins pitcher are babied to no end and they are injured all the time. Restricting pitch counts doesn't seem to be working. Arm injuries are at an all time high.

 

I think it's an inverse relationship. As pitches counts are limited, effort exerted on each pitch goes up. You especially see this with the rise of the bullpen and specialists.

 

It's the same thing with pads and concussions in the NFL/NHL. As players have safer gear, they are willing to give and absorb bigger hits.

 

These changes that are supposed to bring good may very well have the end result of more injuries.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If you really believe this you should look into the studies that have been done on the matter. Especially look at the career case studies of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, who had a holdover manager who didn't believe in pitch counts early in their career at a time when most managers had been convinced they were important.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a study anywhere close to definitive on this matter.

 

Wood was a wild flamethrowing 21 year old, it's not unusual to see those have injuries regardless of usage (see Liriano, Pineda, heck even Gibson, etc.). And Wood's usage wasn't that egregious -- basically amounting to a handful of pitch counts in the 120s for effective 7-9 inning performances, a pace he maintained after his surgery for another 4-5 season of effective, healthy starting, not to mention his second career in the bullpen. The Cubs could have restricted his usage more, but they would have been hard pressed to extract more value out of him during his career.

 

Prior's career was definitely more abbreviated, but his most frequently cited evidence of "abuse" is basically limited to a handful of Sept./Oct. 2003 games where his pitch counts hit 130, although he was pretty effective and pitching late into games even through that stretch. (You might be able to argue that his total workload may have ramped up too quickly from limited college innings in 2001, but even then, he was limited to a combined 167 innings in 2002, before 211 regular season + 23 postseason innings in 2003 -- not unreasonable numbers for an otherwise healthy, effective pitcher.)

 

It's kinda crazy that this debate even sprouts up after a game where the starter was on pace to complete it with 115-120 pitches -- that's a very efficient, effective start. The best argument I've seen is that since it was his debut, he may have been too amped up and putting extra stress on the arm, but since basically all MLB managers operate this way (100 pitches = short leash), for all starters at all times, I'm pretty sure it's not any unique circumstances for Albers that caused this decision.

[Major League Ready]

Exactly. The OPs post said, 'Now the question, was it right to not let him finish or was Gardy right to protect his arm?'. Once a person reads that, they had to know some would agree with Gardy's call and some wouldn't. If you didn't want to see the posts not agreeing with Gardy's decision, why keep reading? Is it so you can complain about the complaining (which of course is okay to do and not the LEAST BIT hypocritical). By complaining about people disagreeing with the call (being negative) you're basically saying, don't answer the OPs question.

 

Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue, maybe people were too lazy to read the OP and didn't know what he was asking, or maybe it's the never-ending quest by some posters to have every post be a cheerleading, ignore the problems, 'positive', glass is always half full kind of place to chat.

 

However it is, if people can't talk about EXACTLY the point of a thread in the thread, then what's the point? Why not just delete the thread entirely and all threads that will lead to someone daring to questions the decisions of Gardy, Ryan and the rest?

 

Anyone else find it funny that no player is off limits to discuss their good points and bad point, but Gardy and Ryan, for some, are off limits less you be deemed 'negative'?

 

It's fair enough to say "hey, we were just responding to the OP. However, you failed to consider that what was being implied was that there were a number of potential positive discussion points that could have been made. Could Albers be one of those deceptive lefties that can be effective for a long-time in this leauge? Does Albers consistency make him more likely to stick than Diamond.

 

I have no problem with knocking this around on a forum. That's the point of a forum. However, none of us were present. We did hear what Albers or Hermann had to say so personally, I am not going to presume to be in a position to judge. I also don't have 25 years of minor leauge and major leauge experience so I don't presume to know better than those who do.

[Alex]

Correct me if I am wrong, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a study anywhere close to definitive on this matter.

 

Probably tough to be "definitive" (because everyone is different, physically and in pitching styles and mechanics) but there are plenty of studies and articles that show correlations, especially with younger players. And while people always go back to TJ, it's not just about TJ but lots of other injuries and an overall loss of effectiveness.

 

Albers in particular may not have been in a situation that was worrisome (though he admitted to being tired), but I wasn't specifically discussing that. I was referring to a couple of posters pretty blindly arguing that decreased pitch counts increase injuries. There certainly haven't been studies that show higher pitch counts keep pitchers healthier.

 

Of course, one of the interesting things to follow in the coming years will be pitchers that go through the same training that Steve Delebar went through in his accidental return to the MLB.

[Marta Shearing]

I think it's an inverse relationship. As pitches counts are limited, effort exerted on

each pitch goes up. You especially see this with the rise of the bullpen and specialists.

 

It's the same thing with pads and concussions in the NFL/NHL. As players have safer gear, they are willing to give and absorb bigger hits.

 

These changes that are supposed to bring good may very well have the end result of more injuries.

 

Absolutely, positively, spot on.

[h2oface]

When one is that close to doing what no Twin has done in a debut......... when history is knocking at your door....... the warrior reaches within and gives it all he has. Albers surrendered pretty easily. He didn't really fight to stay in. Almost 90 mph pitches can be just as tiring as any pitch if that is your max effort. I don't think Albers really wanted it. He seamed relieved. Kind of a shame....... so close to history. You have to get to the edge of it to create it. If you are at the edge of history and find yourself at your edge as well....... why not risk failure when the oh so rare chance you have earned to break through is right there. Work smart and cunning a clever....... you are in control.... you don't need to blow anything out....... but ..... but..... don't you have to try, or be allowed to try?

[h2oface]

Albers was gassed, and the ump just finished screwing him on a 3rd strike, so Gardy did the right thing. Fein got a little lucky with the dp grounder, but it's all good. Albers wasn't in danger of hurting himself, just blowing the shutout.

 

Albers WAS gassed, he did say. If he wasn't in danger of hurting himself, and the shutout is "superficial" anyway (as been argued by those that were in favor of the manager making the decision to pull him), then step right up and give it a GO! Why not?! Fien can and did walk a batter as well as Albers did, anyway!

 

Albers could have at least had the balls to fight for it if he really wanted it.

[h2oface]

A little fewer than that - some were complaints about the complaints. I'm thinking of lodging a complaint.

 

now that is funny!

[h2oface]

It's fair enough to say "hey, we were just responding to the OP. However, you failed to consider that what was being implied was that there were a number of potential positive discussion points that could have been made.

 

Should the one who asks the question "imply" something, or say it, if that is what they really are asking? Should there be only one angle to discuss?

[Trevor0333]

People get way to worked up about pitch counts. Its not that a pitchers arm is going to fall off by throwing 25 more pitches a week. The simple fact is they can easily throw 150 pitches but they aren't used to throwing that many & when pitchers fatigue they lose their mechanics and thats when injuries happen from exerting even more pressure on those shoulders & elbows from pitching with poor mechanics.

 

Ok easy answer is stretch the pitchers out out more often, right? Umm no, most pitchers aren't good enough to fool hitters a 3rd & 4th time through the order. They start getting crushed and don't get to properly stretch out their arms to regularly throw 150-200 a game.

[Trevor0333]

It does matter that he didn't get the complete game, especially since it was a shut out. Who are you guys kidding? I bet every single pitcher that threw a complete game shut-out doesn't think it is a meaningless stat. Seriously, that notion is beyond preposterous.

 

This discussion is a lame one. I think starting pitchers should be throwing 120 pitches per start if possible. Certainly there are time when a guy just isn't going to have it and will not make it. You want guys to go deeper into games they have to get used to pitching with fatigue. Coddling guys at 100 pitches is a great way to over-use the bullpen.

 

How is 100 pitches coddling a guy & 120 is not, if he can do 120 why not 150 or 200. I could use your own logic against you and say your response is preposterous, 120 pitches is coddling the guy.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Albers WAS gassed, he did say. If he wasn't in danger of hurting himself, and the shutout is "superficial" anyway (as been argued by those that were in favor of the manager making the decision to pull him), then step right up and give it a GO! Why not?! Fien can and did walk a batter as well as Albers did, anyway!

 

Albers could have at least had the balls to fight for it if he really wanted it.

 

I find it more than a little comical that someone on a message board says that a guy who just dominated a sport at the highest level in the world didn't really want it.

[ashbury]

Albers could have at least had the balls to fight for it if he really wanted it.

 

Beyond what Brock said: the hilarious subtext is that this poster would himself not have the intestinal fortitude to repeat what he said to Albers in person, much less to fight for the opportunity to do it by getting press credentials or a job in the organization.

 

The post is delete-worthy but for some reason we're letting it stand as a laughingstock instead.

[h2oface]

Well asburyjohn and Brock Beauchamp......... you have so many more comments, and certainly are abiding by the rules you create and you are supposed to moderate, no? (particularly ashburyjohn, as you are making assumptions not knowing me at all, as far as what i would do in person.) You must be right. I am so lucky that you, in your omniscient power of deletion, am letting me be your proclaimed laughing stock. I submit and must be trash. But I stand by my comment(s), made on a public, not private board, and I am posting for all to see, and would say it to anyone's face as well. I bet even Albers would agree, and would love to know his response. I have in no way discounted his amazing performance.

[glunn]

Well asburyjohn and Brock Beauchamp......... you have so many more comments, and certainly are abiding by the rules you create and you are supposed to moderate, no? (particularly ashburyjohn, as you are making assumptions not knowing me at all, as far as what i would do in person.) You must be right. I am so lucky that you, in your omniscient power of deletion, am letting me be your proclaimed laughing stock. I submit and must be trash. But I stand by my comment(s), made on a public, not private board, and I am posting for all to see, and would say it to anyone's face as well. I bet even Albers would agree, and would love to know his response. I have in no way discounted his amazing performance.

 

Before this goes any further, I want to point out that there is a middle ground here. Albers was a rookie pitching his first MLB game. When Gardie came out to pull him, Albers respected the manager's decision. It was a close game and the team wanted to win, and Gardie might have also considered pulling Albers to avoid the risk of him getting shelled. All of this is completely consistent with Albers having normal or above normal sized testicles.

 

As for whether Gardie's decision was a good one, there have been persuasive arguments on both sides and such debate of peripheral but related topics does not violate TD policy so long as it is rational and respectful. However, I agree with John and Brock that there is no basis for putting this on Albers -- he was honest in admitting that he was gassed and he respected his manager's decision.

 

Let's try to tone down the drama in this thread. I feel that h2o was somewhat inflammatory in questioning Albers balls, but I am hopeful that h2o will rationally and respectfully respond to my theory that Albers did everything that he should have done under the circumstances and Albers' conduct says nothing about the size of his balls.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I for one did not agree with the decision - for the simple reason that if I had been making my major league debut and had a 7-run lead in the 9th with 2 outs to go, with my parents in the stands, I'd want to try and finish it.

 

That said, when the manager comes out to make the move, you accept it without dissent. That's his job; it's his call. I can discuss it with him later in the clubhouse out of public view if I'm really ticked about it. And I don't contradict the manager in a public interview afterward. That's just foolish.

[ThePuck]

It was a close game and the team wanted to win

 

It wasn't a close game, it was a butt-kickin.

 

And as was pointed out earlier, the rarity of the accomplishment can't be ignored. More than 4 times as likely to throw a no-hitter than to pitch a CGSO in your debut appearance.

[h2oface]

I think one can make a case to keep pitching without being disrespectful. I understand that Albers had been building momentum with 2 complete AAA games in his last two starts. I understand that politely submitting to a manager's call is text book behavior. I didn't mean or say size of balls...... it was just a metaphor........ pick another PC Twins nice one that means the same. As ThePuck points out, it was not a close game at all, and the feat would have been remarkable. I wonder what a young Jack Morris would have done? That, like whether Albers could have accomplished the CGSO in his debut, we will all now never know. I personally feel, with a 7 run lead in the ninth (close game to some?) it was Gardenhire's bad and it should have been completely Albers decision. Maybe it was. I wasn't on the mound. From what we witnessed, there certainly wasn't a polite and respectful case made to say "I can do this.... I would really like you to consider giving me a shot, Mr. Gardenhire. We have a seven run lead, and I would really like to see what happens with the next batter. Perhaps you can give me one more batter?" Maybe Albers will get his first complete game in his next start. It sure was fun to watch, and we could all use a little of that around Twins Territory.

[Squirrel]

I think one can make a case to keep pitching without being disrespectful. I understand that Albers had been building momentum with 2 complete AAA games in his last two starts. I understand that politely submitting to a manager's call is text book behavior. I didn't mean or say size of balls...... it was just a metaphor........ pick another PC Twins nice one that means the same. As ThePuck points out, it was not a close game at all, and the feat would have been remarkable. I wonder what a young Jack Morris would have done? That, like whether Albers could have accomplished the CGSO in his debut, we will all now never know. I personally feel, with a 7 run lead in the ninth (close game to some?) it was Gardenhire's bad and it should have been completely Albers decision. Maybe it was. I wasn't on the mound. From what we witnessed, there certainly wasn't a polite and respectful case made to say "I can do this.... I would really like you to consider giving me a shot, Mr. Gardenhire. We have a seven run lead, and I would really like to see what happens with the next batter. Perhaps you can give me one more batter?" Maybe Albers will get his first complete game in his next start. It sure was fun to watch, and we could all use a little of that around Twins Territory.

 

There are so many 'maybes' and 'what ifs' and 'would've, should've, could'ves' in this thread. The thing is we don't know what was said between them. Or how and why the decision to pull him when he did was made. To add my own 'maybe' ... maybe during the bottom of the 8th Gardy, Andy and Albers had a discussion before he went out for the 9th. Maybe he was already 'gassed' and went out to try and push it through and just couldn't? In the end, right or wrong, a shame he couldn't finish it off or not, it was what it was. It was a great debut, we won the game. I think I can be happy with that without it accepting a blue ribbon just to participate.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Conditioned to 100 pitches is exactly correct, while pitching 105 or 110 may not blow his arm out, a pitcher needs to be conditioned to 110 or 120. There's a reason they "stretch a pitcher out". He was gassed and there was no reason to push your luck. There is however a reason marathon runners poop themselves at the end of a marathon. They've pushed their bodies to its physical limit. Do you really want to see Albers poop himself on the mound?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Conditioned to 100 pitches is exactly correct, while pitching 105 or 110 may not blow his arm out, a pitcher needs to be conditioned to 110 or 120. There's a reason they "stretch a pitcher out". He was gassed and there was no reason to push your luck. There is however a reason marathon runners poop themselves at the end of a marathon. They've pushed their bodies to its physical limit. Do you really want to see Albers poop himself on the mound?

 

Now that you bring it up, yeah, it'd be nice to see a Twins pitcher crap their pants when the Yankees weren't in town. It'd be a nice change of pace.