How Are Ex-Minnesota Twins Traded in Team's Trade Deadline Fire Sale Doing With Their New Teams?

[TNtwins85]

11 hours ago, bunsen82 said:

I think we are better off moving forward with Culpepper as our SS.  Correa has shown 2 years of declining performance. 1 good week doesn’t make him elite again. To me the body is slowing down. Some dollars will be used. 

Exactly. I don’t expect them to spend all $20M but if they can add a couple of veteran guys that total $10M—$15M that’s great. Also that’s for 3 more years so if they were to supplant the next 3 rosters with any group of guys in the $30M-$45M range that’s much better than on an aging Correa who has only gotten less capable and more injured. Getting out from that contract is a blessing and not a curse. There’s a path to winning as a smaller market team and as much as everyone around here wants a salary cap and floor I advocate non of that. Look at some teams right around us in Milwaukee and Cleveland. MLB doesn’t want it to create parity they want it for the money it brings in. Just like everything else it helps the owners and not the fans. A salary floor does the same thing only for the players. Just like everything else in this world one thing is said while the intention is something deeper. Everyone cry’s that the Twins can’t do what the dodgers and Yankees do but my question is why would you want that when there’s a model of winning without doing what they do? Yeah you don’t get to go out and make the big splash but that ultimately handcuffs your franchise at the back end of those contracts. 

[bunsen82]

1 minute ago, TNtwins85 said:

Exactly. I don’t expect them to spend all $20M but if they can add a couple of veteran guys that total $10M—$15M that’s great. Also that’s for 3 more years so if they were to supplant the next 3 rosters with any group of guys in the $30M-$45M range that’s much better than on an aging Correa who has only gotten less capable and more injured. Getting out from that contract is a blessing and not a curse. There’s a path to winning as a smaller market team and as much as everyone around here wants a salary cap and floor I advocate non of that. Look at some teams right around us in Milwaukee and Cleveland. MLB doesn’t want it to create parity they want it for the money it brings in. Just like everything else it helps the owners and not the fans. A salary floor does the same thing only for the players. Just like everything else in this world one thing is said while the intention is something deeper. Everyone cry’s that the Twins can’t do what the dodgers and Yankees do but my question is why would you want that when there’s a model of winning without doing what they do? Yeah you don’t get to go out and make the big splash but that ultimately handcuffs your franchise at the back end of those contracts. 

Whether we like it or not as a small/mid market team you will have ups and downs.  That this is the first time of the Twins have truly done a rebuild since the Falvey Era is pretty crazy.   We have some truly talented players in the minors and Keaschall looks like a very solid piece to build around.   

I think the Pohlads PR has not been good at all and they have taken a major hit.  I still hope for new ownership but there is no guarantee things will be better.   Spending money doesn't guarantee championships.  Just ask San Diego and the Mets.  

[Eric Blonigen]

10 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

Whether we like it or not as a small/mid market team you will have ups and downs.  That this is the first time of the Twins have truly done a rebuild since the Falvey Era is pretty crazy.   We have some truly talented players in the minors and Keaschall looks like a very solid piece to build around.   

I think the Pohlads PR has not been good at all and they have taken a major hit.  I still hope for new ownership but there is no guarantee things will be better.   Spending money doesn't guarantee championships.  Just ask San Diego and the Mets.  

It certainly doesn’t guarantee a championship, but it absolutely increases the odds fairly dramatically.

[stringer bell]

12 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

Whether we like it or not as a small/mid market team you will have ups and downs.  That this is the first time of the Twins have truly done a rebuild since the Falvey Era is pretty crazy.   We have some truly talented players in the minors and Keaschall looks like a very solid piece to build around.   

I think the Pohlads PR has not been good at all and they have taken a major hit.  I still hope for new ownership but there is no guarantee things will be better.   Spending money doesn't guarantee championships.  Just ask San Diego and the Mets.  

IMHO, the Pohlads have taken tone deafness to an art form. Benign neglect has given way to asset protection with no regard to the fans. I have seen opinions that they brought on the limited partners to alleviate the debt, hanging on with minimal investment through a (projected) work stoppage and then figuring they can get a premium price for the Twins when labor troubles are out of the way. That sounds about right to me.

 

[bunsen82]

13 minutes ago, Eric Blonigen said:

It certainly doesn’t guarantee a championship, but it absolutely increases the odds fairly dramatically.

And yet since 2015 you have had the Royals, Texans, Atlanta, and the Nationals win.   The royals or Nationals model are the most likely paths the Twins can take.  Currently we are closer to the Nationals with a very strong 1-2 SP position in Lopez and Ryan.   We still need to build up our core a bit on the field, but we are very close to having the prospects come up.  Ultimately that is why I think they decided to do the rebuild.  This version wasn't cutting it and they were starting to lose the clubhouse (Front Office, Ownership, Coaches and players all played a role).  Say what you will things seem to be better in the clubhouse. 

Keaschall, Jenkins, Rodriguez, Culpepper, Gonzalez all look like very solid prospects.  How many translate,  1, 2, 3, 4 or 5?  The more that succeed the better chance we have at having a successful team in the near future.   

[stringer bell]

14 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

And yet since 2015 you have had the Royals, Texans, Atlanta, and the Nationals win.   The royals or Nationals model are the most likely paths the Twins can take.  Currently we are closer to the Nationals with a very strong 1-2 SP position in Lopez and Ryan.   We still need to build up our core a bit on the field, but we are very close to having the prospects come up.  Ultimately that is why I think they decided to do the rebuild.  This version wasn't cutting it and they were starting to lose the clubhouse (Front Office, Ownership, Coaches and players all played a role).  Say what you will things seem to be better in the clubhouse. 

Keaschall, Jenkins, Rodriguez, Culpepper, Gonzalez all look like very solid prospects.  How many translate,  1, 2, 3, 4 or 5?  The more that succeed the better chance we have at having a successful team in the near future.   

Pretty optimistic take for the doom and gloom I've seen. To quote Fox Mulder "I want to believe". The thing is that the Twins haven't graduated players to "regular" or "star" or "superstar" for years, including all of the Falvey years. They've had a ton of high draft choices who didn't flourish and many have disappointed

[David Maro]

As of today all the traded pieces will be in the playoffs,except for Coulombe and Jax. So I would say they are all fairly happy with what happened. If they were still with the Twins they would be making golf reservations for October.

 

[TNtwins85]

25 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

And yet since 2015 you have had the Royals, Texans, Atlanta, and the Nationals win.   The royals or Nationals model are the most likely paths the Twins can take.  Currently we are closer to the Nationals with a very strong 1-2 SP position in Lopez and Ryan.   We still need to build up our core a bit on the field, but we are very close to having the prospects come up.  Ultimately that is why I think they decided to do the rebuild.  This version wasn't cutting it and they were starting to lose the clubhouse (Front Office, Ownership, Coaches and players all played a role).  Say what you will things seem to be better in the clubhouse. 

Keaschall, Jenkins, Rodriguez, Culpepper, Gonzalez all look like very solid prospects.  How many translate,  1, 2, 3, 4 or 5?  The more that succeed the better chance we have at having a successful team in the near future.   

Very good observation! I’ve said this before as well. When you are like the 2014,2015 Royals you do what they did. You go all in! They built up a core. Sold high on a star player(Grienke) to supplant their in house core. Supplanted that core with a few great trades that depleted their system a bit but ultimately those prospects didn’t amount to star players like almost all prospects. They were able to make it to two World Series. They won one. Down or middling years for 6-7 years. Developed another star in BW Jr. now building around him. Didn’t sign big money big name stars. Made two WS appearances and will probably make it to another one in the next 4-6 years when Witt is in his absolute prime. I’ve argued forever that’s what the Twins should have done in the Mauer, Morneau, Santana years. Instead they held the prospects. As a result we got the down 2010’s with no deep playoff runs to show for it.

[bunsen82]

31 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Pretty optimistic take for the doom and gloom I've seen. To quote Fox Mulder "I want to believe". The thing is that the Twins haven't graduated players to "regular" or "star" or "superstar" for years, including all of the Falvey years. They've had a ton of high draft choices who didn't flourish and many have disappointed

It ebbs and flows.  This is the best group of hitting prospects we have had since when?  Keaschall, Culpepper, Jenkins, Rodriguez and Gonzalez?  All have been top 100 prospects either currently or in the past.  All have very good to great hitting ability.  Lee still has the chance to be above average.  

Of true prospects who are the failures recently - Miranda,  Julian, Rooker, Lewis?  Wallner and Larnach have been ok.  Lee seems to be starting to turn it around.   Yes there haven't been any stars in a while.  This is likely the best group of players since 2015, the last time we were high on the Prospect rankings.  

The difference this time around is the depth.  When you have a Mendez, Houston, Olivar, Debarge, Winokur, and Amick not far behind, and Tait, Young, Diaw, Jimenez that will all be coming up behing them.  You have some players with the highest of ceilings.  

I still stand by that part of the reason for the sell off was to ensure we got a high draft pick in what is considered to be the best draft since 2023.  If you can add another high end hitting prospect with the ceiling of a Walker Jenkins,  a greatly enhances the Twins chances of finding an elite talent.   

[bunsen82]

2 hours ago, David Maro said:

As of today all the traded pieces will be in the playoffs,except for Coulombe and Jax. So I would say they are all fairly happy with what happened. If they were still with the Twins they would be making golf reservations for October.

 

Stewart is hurt.   Baders OPS is .593 and Castro's is .375.   The only 3 doing really well are Duran, Varland and Ty France who looks legit good in Toronto.     There was still an outside chance the Twins made a run at the playoffs with getting Keaschall back.  

[Squirrel]

21 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

Stewart is hurt.   Baders OPS is .593 and Castro's is .375.   The only 3 doing really well are Duran, Varland and Ty France who looks legit good in Toronto.     There was still an outside chance the Twins made a run at the playoffs with getting Keaschall back.  

Yes, I guess there is always a chance until there’s not. But if we did happen to make it to the playoffs, we no longer have a BP of any real substance to carry us through. It would be a completely unexpected and unplanned for event.

As for trades and where they are now, it’s incredibly early to know if what was done is good or not. I find these articles and threads about the trades just, well, very shortsighted. No one will know if these trades were good for probably five years.

The team this year did not lack for talent. And that so many players garnered interest and we were able to make 10(!) trades off our active roster was a testament to that. The questions everyone should be asking isn’t about if the trades were good or not, but why they were necessary. Yes, yes, we weren’t going to win so it was time to be sellers. Why weren’t we winning? What is happening that this team so dramatically underperformed? The hard look at development and on-field management won’t happen with the FO and ownership staying put. Thats the story. You can paint it anyway you like, but this wasn’t a team that should have failed as it did. If the pieces weren’t meshing right, that’s a hit on the manager and the roster construction.

This year has shown that even with talent, we couldn’t win. Trades don’t matter if those we traded for don’t develop and don’t mesh into winners with those currently in charge. I think that’s why there are so many down on the team. Who cares if we have 5 or 6 top prospects. We’ve had highly rated farm systems before, during Falvey’s time. And yet, here we still are.

[jmlease1]

It's interesting to see the updates on how guys are doing since the trades, but not necessarily all that meaningful because of the small sample sizes. Where everyone sits at the end of the season will be worth taking a look at to do a little more intermediate evaluation of the trades.

Some of them are still going to be hard to evaluate accurately this soon, but others (especially where we flipped a rental) will probably be easier.

I think the Varland deal is going to stay hard to swallow for most fans, and it puts a lot of pressure on Rojas to make it to MLB as a starter. The Stewart one was looking pretty upsetting, but the reminder that it's very hard to count on Brock Stewart to stay healthy might start mitigating it, even if few seem sold on Outman (I'm one of those for sure).

I'll miss Duran, but the return for him does look pretty respectable. 

People were very down on the Castro trade, but I do think people were overrating just how good Willi actually was. I loved watching him play, and he's been a good dude too...but he really shouldn't play SS any longer and he's such a streaky hitter that can fall off very quickly. I think his value was down quite a bit around the league, similar to how by the time Polanco was dealt.

[bunsen82]

2 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Yes, I guess there is always a chance until there’s not. But if we did happen to make it to the playoffs, we no longer have a BP of any real substance to carry us through. It would be a completely unexpected and unplanned for event.

As for trades and where they are now, it’s incredibly early to know if what was done is good or not. I find these articles and threads about the trades just, well, very shortsighted. No one will know if these trades were good for probably five years.

The team this year did not lack for talent. And that so many players garnered interest and we were able to make 10(!) trades off our active roster was a testament to that. The questions everyone should be asking isn’t about if the trades were good or not, but why they were necessary. Yes, yes, we weren’t going to win so it was time to be sellers. Why weren’t we winning? What is happening that this team so dramatically underperformed? The hard look at development and on-field management won’t happen with the FO and ownership staying put. Thats the story. You can paint it anyway you like, but this wasn’t a team that should have failed as it did. If the pieces weren’t meshing right, that’s a hit on the manager and the roster construction.

This year has shown that even with talent, we couldn’t win. Trades don’t matter if those we traded for don’t develop and don’t mesh into winners with those currently in charge. I think that’s why there are so many down on the team. Who cares if we have 5 or 6 top prospects. We’ve had highly rated farm systems before, during Falvey’s time. And yet, here we still are.

My point was without making the trades we still had an outside shot of making the playoff.  The roster we had is the type of roster that could have won it all.   At least 2 strong SP - Ryan and Lopez -  A strong bullpen.  All you would have needed is the hitters to get hot.   (Not likely but possible).  

Yes its early,  but the issue is - some of those players are rentals.  Paddack, Castro and Bader they only have value for less than 2 months.   Their value is eroding rapidly.  Secondly, Sometimes good constructed teams fail.   My personal opinion is the dynamics of the team didn't work because we lacked the proper player leadership.   I would be fine with a coaching change,  specifically hitting.   The pitching side honestly we have done pretty well.  I still think we paid for Correa, Lopez and Buxton to lead the team,  and  they were unable to stay healthy or productive for significant stretches.   It happens.   If you think the front office and the coaching is at fault I guess you fire them.  Yet most here seem to be upset we traded Correa - when Correa's underperformance was 1 of the key reasons why the team has underperformed.  It also appears in regards to Jax he was one of the reasons Jax requested to be traded.    

I still think the majority of the issue is ownership,  they set up a long term budget for the team to work with,  signed players then pulled the rug on the front office who was unable to supplement their plan under the current budget.  Is that the front offices fault? I would say no.   So now the front office says we are going to act completely like a small market team and now everyone is questioning them.  Is that fair?  To some extent.   

Sometimes plans like 2019 come together.  Sometimes you find a core like a Puckett, Hrbek, and Gaetti.   You need to keep trying,  otherwise you are just giving up.  On this board it seems like too many posters, writers  just want to give up.   I've said it before I was a fan in the mid to late 90's where there was no hope,  all we had was Radke.   Then you had the 2010's where all you had was Dozier.  There is a lot more to root for now.  The Pittsburg Steelers and Green Bay have shown consistency of leadership and coaching is your most likely chance of success.  I do think Rocco is solid but not great.   

As to the prospects,  this is the most talented and deepest pool of prospects we have had at minimum since 2015,  and honestly this seems maybe closer the early 2000's Mauer, Morneau,  Hunter, Santana time period.   You hope prospects jell and perform like that time period.  Or you can also have a situation like the White Sox or Orioles where it seems to fall apart.   

So under Falvey and Rocco have led the Twins to the Playoffs in 2017, 2019, 2020, 2023.  They were in 1st place in their division in 2021 and 2024 and failed to make the playoffs in meltdowns.   That isn't poor performance.   That is solid above average performance.  Baldelli has a .518% winning % as a small to mid market team.  That tells me they are doing somethings right.   So yes go ahead and blow it up if you wish.  Don't give the kids a chance - sorry Keaschall, Culpepper, Jenkins, Rodriguez and Gonzalez.  We are just upset with the year -  that ownership isn't selling - that we traded players and the season didn't go the way we wanted.  So we want retribution - we want someone else to pay.   Why??   Why are we all so negative and want to ignore the good things this organization has done,  and have coming down the pipeline.   I am willing to continue to look at the positive side.  I have always been that way.  I can understand why some take a pessimistic view.  I think we can all meet somewhere in the middle.    Ultimately fans can walk away.  That is risk that is occurring with the Pohlads ownership.   

The bigger issue is if you think Ownership is so bad,  who would want to come in and take the front office positions and be the Head Coach?  There is a high probability it is worse than what we have now.  

[jkcarew]

20 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Noticeable decline in CC’s defense. Good accurate arm, but his range has diminished and he made more misplays this year. I suppose he can be a good third baseman and that has value.

100 OPS+ isn’t good enough for a >$30M salary and. his “clutchness” was absent all of this year and most of his tenure with the Twins.

Correa has already had a fine career. He’s done everything he can to perform, but IMHO he’s aged rapidly and would have been a burden with his big contract in future years. 

Correa OPS in last month is 804 (ref: Buxton at 709). Correa was brilliant in 2024…that was one year ago. And the salary is only a burden if ownership chooses it to be.

Bottom line, I get moving on in the context of rebuilding. But, it was a salary dump. Period. And it doesn’t help in any way making you better on the field…even in the future, unless you really feel that money will be spent on another needle mover or two or in resigning/extending a player that does move the needle like Ryan. And it won’t be.

[Squirrel]

4 hours ago, bunsen82 said:

My point was without making the trades we still had an outside shot of making the playoff.  The roster we had is the type of roster that could have won it all.   At least 2 strong SP - Ryan and Lopez -  A strong bullpen.  All you would have needed is the hitters to get hot.   (Not likely but possible).  

Yes its early,  but the issue is - some of those players are rentals.  Paddack, Castro and Bader they only have value for less than 2 months.   Their value is eroding rapidly.  Secondly, Sometimes good constructed teams fail.   My personal opinion is the dynamics of the team didn't work because we lacked the proper player leadership.   I would be fine with a coaching change,  specifically hitting.   The pitching side honestly we have done pretty well.  I still think we paid for Correa, Lopez and Buxton to lead the team,  and  they were unable to stay healthy or productive for significant stretches.   It happens.   If you think the front office and the coaching is at fault I guess you fire them.  Yet most here seem to be upset we traded Correa - when Correa's underperformance was 1 of the key reasons why the team has underperformed.  It also appears in regards to Jax he was one of the reasons Jax requested to be traded.    

I still think the majority of the issue is ownership,  they set up a long term budget for the team to work with,  signed players then pulled the rug on the front office who was unable to supplement their plan under the current budget.  Is that the front offices fault? I would say no.   So now the front office says we are going to act completely like a small market team and now everyone is questioning them.  Is that fair?  To some extent.   

Sometimes plans like 2019 come together.  Sometimes you find a core like a Puckett, Hrbek, and Gaetti.   You need to keep trying,  otherwise you are just giving up.  On this board it seems like too many posters, writers  just want to give up.   I've said it before I was a fan in the mid to late 90's where there was no hope,  all we had was Radke.   Then you had the 2010's where all you had was Dozier.  There is a lot more to root for now.  The Pittsburg Steelers and Green Bay have shown consistency of leadership and coaching is your most likely chance of success.  I do think Rocco is solid but not great.   

As to the prospects,  this is the most talented and deepest pool of prospects we have had at minimum since 2015,  and honestly this seems maybe closer the early 2000's Mauer, Morneau,  Hunter, Santana time period.   You hope prospects jell and perform like that time period.  Or you can also have a situation like the White Sox or Orioles where it seems to fall apart.   

So under Falvey and Rocco have led the Twins to the Playoffs in 2017, 2019, 2020, 2023.  They were in 1st place in their division in 2021 and 2024 and failed to make the playoffs in meltdowns.   That isn't poor performance.   That is solid above average performance.  Baldelli has a .518% winning % as a small to mid market team.  That tells me they are doing somethings right.   So yes go ahead and blow it up if you wish.  Don't give the kids a chance - sorry Keaschall, Culpepper, Jenkins, Rodriguez and Gonzalez.  We are just upset with the year -  that ownership isn't selling - that we traded players and the season didn't go the way we wanted.  So we want retribution - we want someone else to pay.   Why??   Why are we all so negative and want to ignore the good things this organization has done,  and have coming down the pipeline.   I am willing to continue to look at the positive side.  I have always been that way.  I can understand why some take a pessimistic view.  I think we can all meet somewhere in the middle.    Ultimately fans can walk away.  That is risk that is occurring with the Pohlads ownership.   

The bigger issue is if you think Ownership is so bad,  who would want to come in and take the front office positions and be the Head Coach?  There is a high probability it is worse than what we have now.  

I already said we weren’t going to win so selling was the thing to do. But articles and comments on the trades being good, bad, or whatever, we can’t know that for a while. I do question whether we got enough for the talent we sold, but will have to wait and see. This team had talent. I don’t blame player leadership on this team. This isn’t the first time we have had underperforming teams so it is time to take a deeper look at why and not blame the players. Poor management is a very likely possibility, along with poor development. Without a change in ownership, these issues are not going to be solved. We herald having great prospects, then the prospects don’t work out. This is the cycle. We aren’t a small market team, but ownership treating us as such isn’t going to win squat.

[Mike Sixel]

14 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I already said we weren’t going to win so selling was the thing to do. But articles and comments on the trades being good, bad, or whatever, we can’t know that for a while. I do question whether we got enough for the talent we sold, but will have to wait and see. This team had talent. I don’t blame player leadership on this team. This isn’t the first time we have had underperforming teams so it is time to take a deeper look at why and not blame the players. Poor management is a very likely possibility, along with poor development. Without a change in ownership, these issues are not going to be solved. We herald having great prospects, then the prospects don’t work out. This is the cycle. We aren’t a small market team, but ownership treating us as such isn’t going to win squat.

What's the point of discussing trades years later, other than hindsight 50th guessing? I mean, this is a site to talk about stuff, and that was a lot of stuff to just ignore.

[Vanimal46]

8 hours ago, bunsen82 said:

The royals or Nationals model are the most likely paths the Twins can take.  Currently we are closer to the Nationals with a very strong 1-2 SP position in Lopez and Ryan. 

You realize the 2019 Nationals were 7th in payroll that season correct? 

[Eric Blonigen]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

You realize the 2019 Nationals were 7th in payroll that season correct? 

Exactly. Over the past 10 seasons, fully 75% of teams that made it to the World Series were top-10 in payroll that season. 

[Vanimal46]

2 minutes ago, Eric Blonigen said:

Exactly. Over the past 10 seasons, fully 75% of teams that made it to the World Series were top-10 in payroll that season. 

That path would be great! Be a top 10 payroll every year and most likely you’re making a deep run in the playoffs. Unfortunately we have 20 teams in this league that can’t keep up with these market conditions. 

[Vanimal46]

Those pesky 2023 Texas Texans were 9th in payroll that season

[Linus]

9 hours ago, stringer bell said:

IMHO, the Pohlads have taken tone deafness to an art form. Benign neglect has given way to asset protection with no regard to the fans. I have seen opinions that they brought on the limited partners to alleviate the debt, hanging on with minimal investment through a (projected) work stoppage and then figuring they can get a premium price for the Twins when labor troubles are out of the way. That sounds about right to me.

 

And after their TV deal is stabilized / enhanced. I don’t know this is the exact scenario but anyone that dismisses it is naive. 

[stringer bell]

1 hour ago, jkcarew said:

Correa OPS in last month is 804 (ref: Buxton at 709). Correa was brilliant in 2024…that was one year ago. And the salary is only a burden if ownership chooses it to be.

Bottom line, I get moving on in the context of rebuilding. But, it was a salary dump. Period. And it doesn’t help in any way making you better on the field…even in the future, unless you really feel that money will be spent on another needle mover or two or in resigning/extending a player that does move the needle like Ryan. And it won’t be.

Correa's WAR for 2025 through 2/3 of the season was +.1. Yes, he's a better player than that, but that is the definition of replacement level. I would expect him to rally and end up with maybe a 2.0 WAR if he had stayed, but 2.0 in his age 30 year is not what a team pays over $30M a year to receive.

As I said earlier, it looked to me like he had aged significantly and prematurely and that showed most in his defense. With the players the Twins had, moving him to third base was not going to happen. Of course, moving him makes the team worse in the short run, but utilizing a portion of his salary could let the Twins acquire more on the field than Correa was providing. I think the Twins will reduce salary and not commit the savings from Correa's contract to payroll, so that would be a salary dump.

 

 

[Squirrel]

38 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

What's the point of discussing trades years later, other than hindsight 50th guessing? I mean, this is a site to talk about stuff, and that was a lot of stuff to just ignore.

Missed my point. There’s no way to know if the trade is good, bad or otherwise. I mean on the surface all we can do is react. I even said I question whether or not we got ‘enough’ but there really isn’t a way to judge our return until our return is in a position to show it. I tire of the ‘look at our prospects’ talk. They don’t win championships. I think there is a greater problem. And rich from someone who the other day was telling people to tune it out if you don’t like it.

[Mike Sixel]

14 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Missed my point. There’s no way to know if the trade is good, bad or otherwise. I mean on the surface all we can do is react. I even said I question whether or not we got ‘enough’ but there really isn’t a way to judge our return until our return is in a position to show it. I tire of the ‘look at our prospects’ talk. They don’t win championships. I think there is a greater problem. And rich from someone who the other day was telling people to tune it out if you don’t like it.

I said to tune out of TALK, not ACTION if you want,. I don't know how to make that more clear. And I said to do it only if listening to talk makes you unhappy. I'm boggled that this isn't clear. 

Judging an action with the information we have at the time is the best way to judge an action. Because no one makes an action in hindsight, they make it with the information they have (to be clear, we don't have all the info they have, so they should be right a lot more often than us). Also, just because something works, does not make it the right decision. The perfect example is drunk driving. Just because you make it home doesn't make it right.

In any event, have fun everyone. That was my point. If you aren't having fun, why are you doing what your are doing for entertainment (not survival, not relationships with people, etc.)?

[Vanimal46]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Judging an action with the information we have at the time is the best way to judge an action. Because no one makes an action in hindsight, they make it with the information they have (to be clear, we don't have all the info they have, so they should be right a lot more often than us).

Huh? This is a bizarre argument. Then we should, to this day, not like the Cruz for Ryan trade. Hindsight, you know. 

[stringer bell]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

I already said we weren’t going to win so selling was the thing to do. But articles and comments on the trades being good, bad, or whatever, we can’t know that for a while. I do question whether we got enough for the talent we sold, but will have to wait and see. This team had talent. I don’t blame player leadership on this team. This isn’t the first time we have had underperforming teams so it is time to take a deeper look at why and not blame the players. Poor management is a very likely possibility, along with poor development. Without a change in ownership, these issues are not going to be solved. We herald having great prospects, then the prospects don’t work out. This is the cycle. We aren’t a small market team, but ownership treating us as such isn’t going to win squat.

I bolded the part of your post I disagree with. The preseason Fangraphs prognostication had the Twins, Tigers, Royals and Guardians as four equal co-favorites and projected a low 80s total of wins. The 13 game winning streak made it look like more than mid-80s wins could happen, but really the talent isn't there. The players who have reached the early years of their prime haven't developed--Wallner, Jeffers, and Larnach haven't moved to the next level and two other guys--Miranda and Julien--ended up in the minor leagues. There is nothing to prove that they ever become more than marginal big league players. I have lived through the Rocco years waiting for a time when Rocco would have a lineup where the first five guys would be written in every day and it hasn't happened since 2019. 

I've opined that the pitching appeared to be good and deep enough to be a playoff team. The position players weren't good enough and they only had two proven players and one of them, Correa, was in a gigantic rut. Is that enough talent? I don't think so. That is where I fault both the front office and the field staff. They haven't developed position players to a level that is expected of them. 

[Vanimal46]

4 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

I bolded the part of your post I disagree with. The preseason Fangraphs prognostication had the Twins, Tigers, Royals and Guardians as four equal co-favorites and projected a low 80s total of wins. The 13 game winning streak made it look like more than mid-80s wins could happen, but really the talent isn't there. The players who have reached the early years of their prime haven't developed--Wallner, Jeffers, and Larnach haven't moved to the next level and two other guys--Miranda and Julien--ended up in the minor leagues. There is nothing to prove that they ever become more than marginal big league players. I have lived through the Rocco years waiting for a time when Rocco would have a lineup where the first five guys would be written in every day and it hasn't happened since 2019. 

I've opined that the pitching appeared to be good and deep enough to be a playoff team. The position players weren't good enough and they only had two proven players and one of them, Correa, was in a gigantic rut. Is that enough talent? I don't think so. That is where I fault both the front office and the field staff. They haven't developed position players to a level that is expected of them. 

You’ve accurately described what happened, but preseason this team was advertised at having a full lineup of league average and slightly better production. Larnach, Miranda, Jeffers, France, Castro being anywhere from 100-115 OPS+. Wallner having star potential 120+ OPS+, with Correa, Buxton, and Lewis billed as the stars who could be 140+ OPS guys. 

[stringer bell]

10 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

You’ve accurately described what happened, but preseason this team was advertised at having a full lineup of league average and slightly better production. Larnach, Miranda, Jeffers, France, Castro being anywhere from 100-115 OPS+. Wallner having star potential 120+ OPS+, with Correa, Buxton, and Lewis billed as the stars who could be 140+ OPS guys. 

Yeah, but what we’ve seen since 2019 is guys who have flashed briefly in the majors or who were top prospects but don’t get to where they can be counted on. Miranda and Julien failed. Larnach, Wallner and Jeffers didn’t advance. Castro regressed and France was what he had been the previous two years. The Twins have two position players with more than 1 WAR and they traded one of them. That isn’t a good or deep lineup.

No one expects everyone to thrive, but some should get better in the first half of their career and it isn’t happening enough with Twins position players. 

[bunsen82]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

Missed my point. There’s no way to know if the trade is good, bad or otherwise. I mean on the surface all we can do is react. I even said I question whether or not we got ‘enough’ but there really isn’t a way to judge our return until our return is in a position to show it. I tire of the ‘look at our prospects’ talk. They don’t win championships. I think there is a greater problem. And rich from someone who the other day was telling people to tune it out if you don’t like it.

Fair enough. Then you agree if we are  operating as a small market team the primary way to succeed then is to have a superior prospect line that creates more opportunities at finding elite players? We can’t win spending more money so we have to be opportunistic with the draft, it’s why tanking in a really good draft year is probably smart. It doesn’t feel good, and some people don’t want to acknowledge it, but it’s clearly a tactic The Twins are utilizing to strengthen its prospect pool. 

[bunsen82]

10 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Yeah, but what we’ve seen since 2019 is guys who have flashed briefly in the majors or who were top prospects but don’t get to where they can be counted on. Miranda and Julien failed. Larnach, Wallner and Jeffers didn’t advance. Castro regressed and France was what he had been the previous two years. The Twins have two position players with more than 1 WAR and they traded one of them. That isn’t a good or deep lineup.

No one expects everyone to thrive, but some should get better in the first half of their career and it isn’t happening enough with Twins position players. 

I would argue all those players were not considered great hit tool players and all tried to prioritize home runs too much.  It’s failed philosophy from 2019 drafting. The really started prioritizing hit tool starting in 2022.