Mets Need a Catcher

[ashbury]

6 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Chances are that injury will provide opportunity. He still has the 40 man roster spot. 

Regardless... I'm still preparing myself for Jose Trevino in free agency. 

If Camargo and Cartaya can't be depended on to outhit Trevino, they certainly won't out-defend him, and the relatively low salary Cincy is paying him this year, presumably to be backup to Stephenson, looks pretty good to me.  Very complementary players on the Reds roster, and he'd pair up similarly to Jeffers.

If you're prepped for Trevino, anyone better next year would be a really nice outcome.  Lot of ways the FO might try to make that happen.

Vazquez of course has established that his salary now should have been on a par with Trevino's. That's a problem, but it's not a very serious one in the overall roster construction process, especially now that we have left the off-season.

[Riverbrian]

10 minutes ago, ashbury said:

If Camargo and Cartaya can't be depended on to outhit Trevino, they certainly won't out-defend him, and the relatively low salary Cincy is paying him this year, presumably to be backup to Stephenson, looks pretty good to me.  Very complementary players on the Reds roster, and he'd pair up similarly to Jeffers.

If you're prepped for Trevino, anyone better next year would be a really nice outcome.  Lot of ways the FO might try to make that happen.

Vazquez of course has established that his salary now should have been on a par with Trevino's. That's a problem, but it's not a very serious one in the overall roster construction process.

Agreed. By itself... it wouldn't be a very serious one in the overall roster construction process.

I just have no desire to pay 4 million for a light hitting defensive catcher who plays 70 games if Jeffers stays healthy or 120 games if he doesn't and those 120 games if Jeffers gets hurt is perhaps the bigger issue of those two outcomes.  

Anytime you have to go outside the organization to acquire catching it is an overpay. It doesn't matter if you are acquiring Trevino or Realmuto in free agency or if you are trading for Basello or Quero. It's an overpay every time after you compare playing time with other positions on the diamond and typical offensive contributions from Catchers at the same price point. 

I'd rather the Twins take advantage of market prices for catchers by fixing whatever development hole isn't developing at the catching position.

Trevino would make me cry. 

 

[Riverbrian]

49 minutes ago, ashbury said:

If Camargo and Cartaya can't be depended on to outhit Trevino, they certainly won't out-defend him, and the relatively low salary Cincy is paying him this year, presumably to be backup to Stephenson, looks pretty good to me.  Very complementary players on the Reds roster, and he'd pair up similarly to Jeffers.

If you're prepped for Trevino, anyone better next year would be a really nice outcome.  Lot of ways the FO might try to make that happen.

Vazquez of course has established that his salary now should have been on a par with Trevino's. That's a problem, but it's not a very serious one in the overall roster construction process, especially now that we have left the off-season.

In regards to the over pay required to acquire catching. 

I'm not a farmer but you know I love trying to talk like one. 

You have a couple of hundred acres of land. Soybeans are paying 10 bucks a bushel and Canola is paying 25 per bushel. Why wouldn't you plant Canola? 

Why can't we grow our own Trevino? Take the extra money and spend it on a tractor. 

[William Malone]

On 3/9/2025 at 6:03 PM, jorgenswest said:

The Mets lost their primary catcher Alvarez for up to 2 months. They have one other catcher on the 40 in Luis Torrens.

I don’t think the contract will have them shying away from Christian Vazquez. The return wouldn’t be much more than salary relief which might not be put back into the roster.

Should the Twins trust Camargo or Cartaya enough to offer Vazquez to the Mets?

While Steve Cohen has the deepest pockets of all owners, the Mets have reached a threshold where they get taxed 110% for every dollar they spend. Taking on Christian Vazuez at $10m would be a $21m hit with their tax situation. No matter how deep an owner's pockets are and no matter how badly you need catching, that's not worth it. If anything, Mets would be more likely to ask for Camargo, who makes nothing.  

[Parfigliano]

NYM could use a couple SPs too.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

6 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

In regards to the over pay required to acquire catching. 

I'm not a farmer but you know I love trying to talk like one. 

You have a couple of hundred acres of land. Soybeans are paying 10 bucks a bushel and Canola is paying 25 per bushel. Why wouldn't you plant Canola? 

Why can't we grow our own Trevino? Take the extra money and spend it on a tractor. 

Do you have the knowledge/experience, soil and equipment to grow and harvest rapeseed? How much cash/liquidity do you have to invest in a seed head on your combine vs  the bean head you already have? If you have to harvest the rapeseed by hand, how much does the labor cost? 
 

maybe the Twins lost their rapeseed farming experience when the Yankees poached Tanner Swanson?

[Riverbrian]

21 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

vs  the bean head you already have

Hey Now

[mnfireman]

At this moment, Vazquez is worth more on the roster than the return he brings in a trade. Jeffers has not proven he can catch 2 of every 3 games without tiring/breaking down, and with Camargo or Cartaya as the back-up catcher, that's what he would have to do.

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

At this moment, Vazquez is worth more on the roster than the return he brings in a trade. Jeffers has not proven he can catch 2 of every 3 games without tiring/breaking down, and with Camargo or Cartaya as the back-up catcher, that's what he would have to do.

Has he proven that? 

Wouldn't that though apply to pretty much be every batter on the roster? More likely, it seems the manager just loves to give equal plate appearances to veteran players, regardless of their skill with the bat.

[ashbury]

9 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Has he proven that? 

Wouldn't that though apply to pretty much be every batter on the roster? More likely, it seems the manager just loves to give equal plate appearances to veteran players, regardless of their skill with the bat.

He had the opportunity to at least suggest more than a half-share of the playing time, in very small sample size in the 2023 post-season when Vazquez didn't get a single plate appearance in 6 games, and gave a miserable showing.

[mnfireman]

19 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Has he proven that? 

Wouldn't that though apply to pretty much be every batter on the roster? More likely, it seems the manager just loves to give equal plate appearances to veteran players, regardless of their skill with the bat.

Jeffers caught 83 games last year with a slash line of .232/.314/.451 (.756 OPS) 17 HR, 48 RBI and 52/26 K/BB. As a DH, usually meaning he played two days in a row, but without the stress of catching, he played 34 games with a slash line of .207/.262/.378 (.641 OPS) 4 HR, 16 RBI and 42/6 K/BB. Doesn't seem to me like he can play 2 out of every 3 games effectively.

[nicksaviking]

50 minutes ago, ashbury said:

He had the opportunity to at least suggest more than a half-share of the playing time, in very small sample size in the 2023 post-season when Vazquez didn't get a single plate appearance in 6 games, and gave a miserable showing.

Seems like basing that decision on 6 games may have been an overreaction.

And not basing it on two seasons in a row of Vazquez having a sub .600 OPS likely an under-reaction.

I get the hesitancy to play the no-name, untested options. But if Vazquez wasn't paid 10M per year, he'd be playing DFA musical chairs for the last two seasons. I just don't get the big loss.

[ashbury]

26 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Seems like basing that decision on 6 games may have been an overreaction.

And not basing it on two seasons in a row of Vazquez having a sub .600 OPS likely an under-reaction.

I get the hesitancy to play the no-name, untested options. But if Vazquez wasn't paid 10M per year, he'd be playing DFA musical chairs for the last two seasons. I just don't get the big loss.

I took a look at Jeffers's minor league game logs, several years' past by now, and just a spot check of games didn't reveal a problem at the plate when he caught a second game in a row.  (No idea about whether his defense stayed up to par, of course.)  It's been 18 months now since that 6-game blip in the post-season, so maybe it would be worth trying again.

But it seems like an overstatement born of optimism to call Camargo and Cartaya untested. Both were tested last season - in the minors, where both gave strong indication they would have had difficulty matching even Vazquez's offensive output at the major league level.  Maybe Cartaya's glove is as useful as Vazquez's, but Camargo's probably isn't.  There is a very large chance we'd have a downgrade for a backup if we dealt Vazquez away.  This isn't a rebuilding year so I'm not advocating to take that chance.

The $10M paid to Vazquez represents the Failure Tax* for not developing another catcher besides Jeffers in the years this FO has been in charge; and part of the sum is also the failure to forecast Vazquez's production better than they did, because they could indeed have scouted and signed someone else for less money and similar production to his.  I do give them full credit for scouting and drafting and developing Jeffers, but success needs to happen more often than this.  The pickings after Vazquez remain slim.

* Riverbrian caught me once or twice calling it a Stupidity Tax and I won't quite disavow it, although it's much ruder.

[Riverbrian]

7 hours ago, mnfireman said:

Jeffers caught 83 games last year with a slash line of .232/.314/.451 (.756 OPS) 17 HR, 48 RBI and 52/26 K/BB. As a DH, usually meaning he played two days in a row, but without the stress of catching, he played 34 games with a slash line of .207/.262/.378 (.641 OPS) 4 HR, 16 RBI and 42/6 K/BB. Doesn't seem to me like he can play 2 out of every 3 games effectively.

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar?

Dad: No

Riverbrian: Why Not? 

Dad: You haven't proven that you can play guitar. 

 

[Riverbrian]

9 hours ago, ashbury said:

I took a look at Jeffers's minor league game logs, several years' past by now, and just a spot check of games didn't reveal a problem at the plate when he caught a second game in a row.  (No idea about whether his defense stayed up to par, of course.)  It's been 18 months now since that 6-game blip in the post-season, so maybe it would be worth trying again.

But it seems like an overstatement born of optimism to call Camargo and Cartaya untested. Both were tested last season - in the minors, where both gave strong indication they would have had difficulty matching even Vazquez's offensive output at the major league level.  Maybe Cartaya's glove is as useful as Vazquez's, but Camargo's probably isn't.  There is a very large chance we'd have a downgrade for a backup if we dealt Vazquez away.  This isn't a rebuilding year so I'm not advocating to take that chance.

The $10M paid to Vazquez represents the Failure Tax* for not developing another catcher besides Jeffers in the years this FO has been in charge; and part of the sum is also the failure to forecast Vazquez's production better than they did, because they could indeed have scouted and signed someone else for less money and similar production to his.  I do give them full credit for scouting and drafting and developing Jeffers, but success needs to happen more often than this.  The pickings after Vazquez remain slim.

* Riverbrian caught me once or twice calling it a Stupidity Tax and I won't quite disavow it, although it's much ruder.

Cartaya Tartaya Camargo Tamargo. 

This stupidity tax is the larger issue.

Everybody needs to think about this:

1. The organization is in a situation where it can be argued that a .575 OPS Catcher can't be replaced. Just think about that. A .575 OPS catcher CAN'T BE REPLACED.  

2. There are fairly decent odds that Vazquez will go from irreplaceable in September to signing a minor league deal in December. 

3. Can't trade him because nobody wants him and you can't trade him because we would take a hit at the position. 

Interesting dichotomy. 

 

 

[SteveLV]

I think you mean "dichotomy".  English police signing off.....

[Riverbrian]

16 minutes ago, SteveLV said:

I think you mean "dichotomy".  English police signing off.....

You are right

It "Ot" to be that. 

At least I spelled Tartaya and Tamargo correctly. 

[bean5302]

Christian Vazquez is not an MLB caliber catcher. We do not need an MLB caliber catcher to replace him.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

9 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Cartaya Tartaya Camargo Tamargo. 

This stupidity tax is the larger issue.

Everybody needs to think about this:

1. The organization is in a situation where it can be argued that a .575 OPS Catcher can't be replaced. Just think about that. A .575 OPS catcher CAN'T BE REPLACED.  

2. There are fairly decent odds that Vazquez will go from irreplaceable in September to signing a minor league deal in December. 

3. Can't trade him because nobody wants him and you can't trade him because we would take a hit at the position. 

Interesting dichotomy. 

 

 

“Can’t” or “Won’t”? It’s still the farming example. Hire the farming expert to grow what you want (catching coach and drafted prospects), trade for prospects with some development already done, or sign free agents, or choose to be bad at the position.

Today they can trade Vázquez, but it would be choosing to be a worse team.

they can poach Tanner Swanson from Ny or hire another catching whisperer, and spend more draft capital on Catchers

there is no salary cap, they can spend whatever they want. They could have signed d’Arnaud for the same money they paid Bader.

[chpettit19]

11 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar?

Dad: No

Riverbrian: Why Not? 

Dad: You haven't proven that you can play guitar. 

 

Did you go ask mom instead?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Did you go ask mom instead?

Unfortunately they share a checkbook

[tony&rodney]

15 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Unfortunately they share a checkbook

That's old school.

[ashbury]

15 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar?

Dad: No

Riverbrian: Why Not? 

Dad: You haven't proven that you can play guitar. 

 

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar?

Dad: No

Riverbrian: Why Not? 

Dad: That time eighteen months ago in the guitar playoffs when we let you borrow a guitar for six days in a row and you went practically hitless in terms of guitar playing. That's why.

[lecroy24fan]

51 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar?

Dad: No

Riverbrian: Why Not? 

Dad: That time eighteen months ago in the guitar playoffs when we let you borrow a guitar for six days in a row and you went practically hitless in terms of guitar playing. That's why.

Brother Joel: Trust me don't play Guitar Hero.

[Riverbrian]

9 hours ago, ashbury said:

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar?

Dad: No

Riverbrian: Why Not? 

Dad: That time eighteen months ago in the guitar playoffs when we let you borrow a guitar for six days in a row and you went practically hitless in terms of guitar playing. That's why.

Riverbrian: Can I have a Guitar? 

Dad: How many hits have you produced? 

Riverbrian: Well... Umm... (Pause)... None

Dad: Bob Dylan he produces hits

Riverbrian: OK... I see. If I was Bob Dylan.. you would buy me a guitar.

Dad: I would not

Riverbrian: Why Not

Dad: Bob Dylan already has one 

[Riverbrian]

13 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Did you go ask mom instead?

I didn't think of that. 

I'll go speak with Jayce. 

[Riverbrian]

13 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

“Can’t” or “Won’t”? It’s still the farming example. Hire the farming expert to grow what you want (catching coach and drafted prospects), trade for prospects with some development already done, or sign free agents, or choose to be bad at the position.

Today they can trade Vázquez, but it would be choosing to be a worse team.

they can poach Tanner Swanson from Ny or hire another catching whisperer, and spend more draft capital on Catchers

there is no salary cap, they can spend whatever they want. They could have signed d’Arnaud for the same money they paid Bader.

I had to scroll through a couple of pages of Mr. Bean just to find him standing in a field of something yellow. Normal people would have just taken an image off the first page... I want you to know that you are worth that type of effort. 

Can't or Won't? There are many who honestly believe they can't. I fear it's won't. I feel that because .575 is such a tremendously low bar to clear. Your farm doesn't have to produce Adley Rutschman... your farm just had to produce Jose Trevino. 

The market hasn't snuck up on anyone. The catching price tag has been inflated for many years now. I've been talking about it on Twinsdaily before covid. I've said... don't over pay for catching... grow your own. They play 100 games a year at most, they get hurt often and most of them don't hit much anyway. 

I get that there must be a difficulty in production across the league driving those prices up. But, other organizations are producing extra while the Twins front office has produced two major leaguers. Jeffers and Rortvedt. 

Better coaching? Sharper Draft Focus on the position? What is going on with development? Are expectations too high in regards to the handling of staff. 

Is defense the most important thing at the position? So important that a bat like Vazquez is not replaceable. If So... Work on defense... if working on defense isn''t working... Work harder. Develop that defensive guy who can't hit. Draft that defensive guy who can't hit. It will save you millions. You don't have to develop Will Smith... You can develop your own Fortes and it will save you millions. 

I don't blame them for signing Vazquez for 30 million at the time. It was an over pay but they put themselves in that position. Jeffers just had back to back years of .670 and .648 OPS with defensive questions and the defensive wizard Gary Sanchez was going away. 

It's ok to make a mistake in free agency just like it's OK to buy a boat with a hole in it if you didn't know about the hole.  It's not OK to double down on it, take it to the lake and not try to swim to shore and here we are again. Staring at another free agent purchase in the off-season because we can't or won't. 

 

 

[bean5302]

16 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

...Today they can trade Vázquez, but it would be choosing to be a worse team...

Worse than a team with a catcher who OPS'd .575 with average defense except for the instable "catcher framing" metric? As has been pointed out, Twins pitchers have gotten better results with Jeffers behind the plate in terms of runs prevented than the framing genius which is Vazquez.

I'd be fine giving the backup catcher role to Gasper or Cartaya or Camargo or Winkel because there are plenty of other options if the backup catcher looks bad at this point. At least one of those guys will be a 0 WAR player this year, Vazquez will be a negative WAR guy.

Or heck, Grandal is still on the FA market. Get him on a cheap deal.

The world of catchers is not Christian Vazquez or a plywood cutout painted to look like a catcher.

[Otaknam]

If the coaches deem either Camargo or Cartaya ready to help the team and have the trust of the pitching staff, then make the trade. Vasquez’ value is his defense and pitch calling, and his ability to handle a young group of back end starters. The team would need to decide which is more important, Vasquez’ experience or $10 million. 

[ashbury]

If we'd be just as well off to trade Vazquez to the Mets and go sign someone still on the free agent market, then the Mets would be just as well off to go sign that other guy in the first place.  Catch-22, it seems.