Is It Time for the Minnesota Twins to Reassess the Amount of Platooning They Do?

[tony&rodney]

If the Twins sit Emmanuel when a left-handed pitcher is on the mound, then you will know it is not analytics but insanity. EmRod doesn't care which hand a pitcher uses. He swings and misses or crushes the ball against either hand.

[Riverbrian]

I don't care if they trade for Kasper. 

I don't care if the budget restricts what we can do. 

I'm not calling for Rocco's head... I'm not calling for Falvey's head. I'm not asking for new ownership. 

I have one wish... I want them to stop doing this. Just like they stopped yanking starting pitching after two times through the order. 

I will say uncle eventually. I will judge this front office on development because money has always been a hurdle and I expect money to continue to be a hurdle. The team won't survive in the future without development.

If the best they can do on the development side is develop a Wallner or Larnach or Julien that demands a Margot be attached to them. They will have failed at development if that is the best they can do. 

If they fail at development... then I'll demand that they increase payroll to sign players that other teams have fully developed because we are incapable of developing our own.

If they continue to work with budget limitations that make it impossible to bring players in that other teams have fully developed I'll go back to asking that they fully develop players. 

At that point... I'll be aware of being bounced around like a tennis ball and I will eventually ask for new front office leadership that is more committed to development.   

[mnfireman]

5 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Unfortunate Injuries and players playing well below what they were projected to play at is a constant thing. 

Very few teams have been able to pick 9 players and just ride with them for all 162 games to the playoffs. Each roster spot is gold.  

Playing terribly doesn't kill you. It's the constant playing of the player playing terribly that kills you.

Do you want to get away from that player playing terribly.

Well you can't get away from that player playing terribly because your options are the guy that you won't let hit left handers or the guy who can't hit right handers and that guy is only on the roster because you won't let the other guy hit left handers. 

It's a death cycle with no end.    

I agree, all I am saying is this nothing new, especially in this organization. What do they call it when you do the same thing over and over expecting different results?

This team holds onto players well past their expiration date and continues to run them out there several times a week, many of which fail to catch on with other teams after their Twins tenure is over. It's time to promote and play some of the prospects to see what they have.   

[nicksaviking]

Why was Max Kepler allowed to stink and then work his way through facing left handed pitchers but this new crop of hitters aren't allowed the same grace?

Max Kepler had a !.430! OPS in 2017 against lefties while getting 137 plate appearances. Wallner, Larnach and Julien only got 100 PA against lefties COMBINED last year, and every one of those guys fared better than 2017 Max Kepler.

Derek Falvey was here, Baldelli wasn't. I think someone needs to be firm with the manager and let him know  he's got to get over this mental roadblock.

[jorgenswest]

Platooning loses its effectiveness when starters are taken out mid game. It will remain ineffective short of baseball allowing re-entry.

Take a look at Ryan Jeffers career line. The Twins haven’t platooned at catcher but there is a little bias towards left handed starter since he has DH’d against a lefty on occasion. Since he is a catcher he almost always plays a full game and rarely replaced by a pinch hitter. His numbers tell a story. It probably doesn’t surprise you that his OPS against left handed pitching (.832) is much better than his OPS against right handed pitching (.695). Wouldn’t it make sense to get a left handed catcher to platoon with him? They probably should limit Jeffers’ starts against a right handed pitcher. Shouldn’t they? Here is the catch. His career OPS in games started by a right handed pitcher of .767 is almost 100 points better than his OPS in games started by a left handed pitcher of .677.

What is going on here? Starters aren’t pitching deep into games. In games started by a right handed pitcher he is often batting in the bottom half of the lineup between two left handed batters. Relievers need to face a minimum of three batters so he probably sees a left handed pitcher or two in the second half of the game. Left handed relievers are not as strong as left handed starters and they almost certainly have more trouble against right handed batters. Jeffers feasts in those situations.

The answer to roster construction is simply roster the better hitters. Strategic lineup construction is critical. Group players that have the more extreme splits from opposite sides. Want to bring in a lefty to face Wallner? That’s fine but he is also going to have to deal with Jeffers in the on deck circle. If Wallner, Larnach and Rodriguez are the best three bats for the corner outfield then they should roster those three. Alternate which one rest against a lefty and use all three in the outfield when Buxton needs a day off against a right handed starter. Don’t look for a Margot.

[IndianaTwin]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I don't recall citing Betteridge's law of headlines. 

However... I love those TV or Radio ads that start with a question. Are you looking for a fish? Come to Bob's Goldfish Store. I'll say... Nope... Not looking for a fish and I'm done.  

It's probably better to sell the reason that you need a fish instead of settling for the tiny amount of the already converted fish people. 

Anyway... Hooked me with this article. Yes I need a non-platooning fish. 

 

One of the regulars has cited this law regularly, which is what made me track it down as well. Couldn't remember who, but I read your comment in that context. 

In a prior life, I was a sportswriter, so I was amused reading about it and recalling it when I see questions in headlines. He's not wrong. 

[IndianaTwin]

49 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Why was Max Kepler allowed to stink and then work his way through facing left handed pitchers but this new crop of hitters aren't allowed the same grace?

Max Kepler had a !.430! OPS in 2017 against lefties while getting 137 plate appearances. Wallner, Larnach and Julien only got 100 PA against lefties COMBINED last year, and every one of those guys fared better than 2017 Max Kepler.

Derek Falvey was here, Baldelli wasn't. I think someone needs to be firm with the manager and let him know  he's got to get over this mental roadblock.

Actually, Kepler didn't work his way through facing lefties.

I had that sense as well, but a week or so ago, I went back and looked at Kepler's splits, to see if we might expect a shift with Wallner and Larnach over time.

Kepler's percentage of plate appearances against left-handed batters was pretty consistent throughout his career. This past year, for example, he only had 20.5 percent of his PAs against lefties. If anything, he moved further in the direction of platooning, since he's had 25.5 percent of his PAs against lefties over the course of his career. 

[Schmoeman5]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

YES... A thousand times YES. Buxton, Lewis and Correa have spent enough time on the injured list that any idea that you can get by with just 9 decent ball players is a bad idea. These roster spots are GOLD. Camargo just watching Vazquez OPS .575 is just a waste of a roster spot.

We committed 30 million dollars and bunch of AB"s to players who were below of average last year. Kepler, Margot, Farmer and Vazquez add up to 30 million dollars. You can't just sit back and say Oh Well... It happens. You need players to compete for playing time.

Larnach's locked in utilization doesn't allow for competition for playing time... it requires Larnach to be locked into a role and it requires Margot on the opposite side.

So sub par plays just gets to keep doing what it was doing because Larnach can NEVER be the replacement and Margot is MARGOT.      

Talked to Trev this past weekend about this very topic. Pretty much spot on @Riverbrian

[mnfireman]

3 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

Actually, Kepler didn't work his way through facing lefties.

I had that sense as well, but a week or so ago, I went back and looked at Kepler's splits, to see if we might expect a shift with Wallner and Larnach over time.

Kepler's percentage of plate appearances against left-handed batters was pretty consistent throughout his career. This past year, for example, he only had 20.5 percent of his PAs against lefties. If anything, he moved further in the direction of platooning, since he's had 25.5 percent of his PAs against lefties over the course of his career. 

Kepler played everyday, getting an occasional day off against a TOUGH lefty. Larnach and Wallner sit against almost EVERY lefty. The caveat here though is that Kepler's defense was/is well above average while Larnach and Wallner both are below average.

But I agree, they need to play everyday, their 0-4 is no worse than Margot's...[insert sarcasm here]

[Riverbrian]

42 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Platooning loses its effectiveness when starters are taken out mid game. It will remain ineffective short of baseball allowing re-entry.

Take a look at Ryan Jeffers career line. The Twins haven’t platooned at catcher but there is a little bias towards left handed starter since he has DH’d against a lefty on occasion. Since he is a catcher he almost always plays a full game and rarely replaced by a pinch hitter. His numbers tell a story. It probably doesn’t surprise you that his OPS against left handed pitching (.832) is much better than his OPS against right handed pitching (.695). Wouldn’t it make sense to get a left handed catcher to platoon with him? They probably should limit Jeffers’ starts against a right handed pitcher. Shouldn’t they? Here is the catch. His career OPS in games started by a right handed pitcher of .767 is almost 100 points better than his OPS in games started by a left handed pitcher of .677.

What is going on here? Starters aren’t pitching deep into games. In games started by a right handed pitcher he is often batting in the bottom half of the lineup between two left handed batters. Relievers need to face a minimum of three batters so he probably sees a left handed pitcher or two in the second half of the game. Left handed relievers are not as strong as left handed starters and they almost certainly have more trouble against right handed batters. Jeffers feasts in those situations.

The answer to roster construction is simply roster the better hitters. Strategic lineup construction is critical. Group players that have the more extreme splits from opposite sides. Want to bring in a lefty to face Wallner? That’s fine but he is also going to have to deal with Jeffers in the on deck circle. If Wallner, Larnach and Rodriguez are the best three bats for the corner outfield then they should roster those three. Alternate which one rest against a lefty and use all three in the outfield when Buxton needs a day off against a right handed starter. Don’t look for a Margot.

Beautiful Post. 

The complication of Jeffers is well stated. They are chasing a moving target. 

I'll add a similar complication to your well done post. 

Miranda... the right handed hitting Miranda with much much better splits against right handed pitching last year. Extreme split differences.  

Is he better against right handed pitching or was it the small sample results of what he did against left handed pitching? I don't know but there were stretches last year sometimes lengthy stretches when Miranda would be in the lineup against left handers consistently and sat against right handers totally ignoring what was actually happening on the field. 

Will Miranda's splits in 2025 look like they did in 2024? I don't know but the sample size against left handers is certainly small enough that they could look completely different. How do you plan for that? Do you play Miranda against every body in 2025? Do you play Miranda in a short side role in 2025? Do you play Miranda against right handers only... like he is Trevor Larnach? Whatever you do... he gets set in cement for the year. 

If you treat Miranda like he is Larnach. His numbers suggest that you should. Now you need Farmer to platoon with Miranda. One year results... his future planned. As long as Farmer is on the roster... He needs that guy who can face right handers.

You said it perfectly when you said this: "The answer to roster construction is simply roster the better hitters".   

[Riverbrian]

16 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Talked to Trev this past weekend about this very topic. Pretty much spot on @Riverbrian

Hopefully you were able to mention to him that I am personally counting on him this year. 😉😎😄

You can also mention that I also believe him in. I think I'm counting on the right guy. 

Now we just got to get management out of his way. 

[Trov]

I am all for platooning as long as the team is will to not follow it like a book.  Specifically, when an opener starts the game, and then before a guy even gets 1 at bat you pinch hit because the same sided pitcher comes in next.  The issue is then you burn that move for later on, but even more if it is say a lefty early in game, then you cannot use them later in game when you have the platoon advantage. 

There are times last year where sometimes Rocco let a lefty hit early in game against a lefty, but not often.  I get if you are in say the 5th and a big at bat comes up, you want the best chance of getting runs in, however, if the at bat is not big why do it just to try to get a single hit with 2 outs in 5th? 

 

[chpettit19]

23 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Beautiful Post. 

The complication of Jeffers is well stated. They are chasing a moving target. 

I'll add a similar complication to your well done post. 

Miranda... the right handed hitting Miranda with much much better splits against right handed pitching last year. Extreme split differences.  

Is he better against right handed pitching or was it the small sample results of what he did against left handed pitching? I don't know but there were stretches last year sometimes lengthy stretches when Miranda would be in the lineup against left handers consistently and sat against right handers totally ignoring what was actually happening on the field. 

Will Miranda's splits in 2025 look like they did in 2024? I don't know but the sample size against left handers is certainly small enough that they could look completely different. How do you plan for that? Do you play Miranda against every body in 2025? Do you play Miranda in a short side role in 2025? Do you play Miranda against right handers only... like he is Trevor Larnach? Whatever you do... he gets set in cement for the year. 

If you treat Miranda like he is Larnach. His numbers suggest that you should. Now you need Farmer to platoon with Miranda. One year results... his future planned. As long as Farmer is on the roster... He needs that guy who can face right handers.

You said it perfectly when you said this: "The answer to roster construction is simply roster the better hitters".   

To add to the Miranda thought...in his rookie year where he put up a very similar overall OPS+ he had a .721 OPS against righties but an .821 OPS against lefties. Did he forget how to hit lefties in 2 years? Or, as you ask, are they just 2 years with small samples that went different directions?

Get good hitters and let them hit!

[IndianaTwin]

39 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Kepler played everyday, getting an occasional day off against a TOUGH lefty. Larnach and Wallner sit against almost EVERY lefty. The caveat here though is that Kepler's defense was/is well above average while Larnach and Wallner both are below average.

But I agree, they need to play everyday, their 0-4 is no worse than Margot's...[insert sarcasm here]

Actually, only 10 of Kepler's 88 starts this year were against lefties. That's 11.4 percent. By contrast, 6 of Wallner's 33 starts in right (18.2 percent) were against lefties.

For context, opponents started a lefty in 46 of 162 games (28.4 percent)

The percentage of starts vs. lefties isn't a full apples-to-apples comparison, because it doesn't take into account what the options were. Several of Wallner's starts came when Kepler was out for the year, which meant a weaker bench. 

You did hit the nail on the head in that Kepler's defense probably kept him in the game more often against a lefty. That 20.5 percent of his plate appearances came against lefties though only 11 percent of his starts did suggests that he hit against lefty relievers on a more regular basis.

This would be a really small sample size, I'm sure, but it did seem that if either Kepler or Wallner came off the bench to face a righty (most often replacing Margot) and then came to the spot where he would be facing a lefty later in the game, Kepler was more likely to stay in the game and do that (partially for defensive purposes), whereas Wallner was more likely to get pulled for a second pinch hitter. 

My primary point, however, is to say that Kepler didn't grow into facing more lefties over the course of his career. If anything, he tilted in the direction of facing fewer lefties over time. 

[IndianaTwin]

1 hour ago, jorgenswest said:

Platooning loses its effectiveness when starters are taken out mid game. It will remain ineffective short of baseball allowing re-entry.

Take a look at Ryan Jeffers career line. The Twins haven’t platooned at catcher but there is a little bias towards left handed starter since he has DH’d against a lefty on occasion. Since he is a catcher he almost always plays a full game and rarely replaced by a pinch hitter. His numbers tell a story. It probably doesn’t surprise you that his OPS against left handed pitching (.832) is much better than his OPS against right handed pitching (.695). Wouldn’t it make sense to get a left handed catcher to platoon with him? They probably should limit Jeffers’ starts against a right handed pitcher. Shouldn’t they? Here is the catch. His career OPS in games started by a right handed pitcher of .767 is almost 100 points better than his OPS in games started by a left handed pitcher of .677.

What is going on here? Starters aren’t pitching deep into games. In games started by a right handed pitcher he is often batting in the bottom half of the lineup between two left handed batters. Relievers need to face a minimum of three batters so he probably sees a left handed pitcher or two in the second half of the game. Left handed relievers are not as strong as left handed starters and they almost certainly have more trouble against right handed batters. Jeffers feasts in those situations.

The answer to roster construction is simply roster the better hitters. Strategic lineup construction is critical. Group players that have the more extreme splits from opposite sides. Want to bring in a lefty to face Wallner? That’s fine but he is also going to have to deal with Jeffers in the on deck circle. If Wallner, Larnach and Rodriguez are the best three bats for the corner outfield then they should roster those three. Alternate which one rest against a lefty and use all three in the outfield when Buxton needs a day off against a right handed starter. Don’t look for a Margot.

I don't disagree with your general premise, but I'm not sure using catcher is a fair example, since at catcher, they are much more committed to load management and letting him play the full game than they are to platoon differences (which makes sense, when you have two righty-hitting catchers).

I do think you nailed what will be an interesting decision if Rodriguez forces his way to a promotion and the Buxton, Larnach and Wallner are all healthy and producing. May it be so!

But even in that scenario, I suspect there will still be plenty of times when two of the lefties would have a day off as they try to sneak a few starts to another righty (say Martin or Helman) or switchy (Castro).

And depending on health and the rest of the roster, there could easily be days when Buxton would be flanked by one of Martin/Helman and Castro. For example, it's not hard to imagine a day when the lineup (by position numbers, not batting order) is Vazquez, Miranda, Lewis, Lee, Correa, Castro, Buxton, Martin, with Jeffers at DH, leaving Larnach, Wallner, Rodriguez and Julien on the bench. If you don't want to imagine Martin in right, consider him hurt with either Helman or a low-budget signing there instead (playing the role Margot was supposed to be playing).

[Riverbrian]

24 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

Actually, only 10 of Kepler's 88 starts this year were against lefties. That's 11.4 percent. By contrast, 6 of Wallner's 33 starts in right (18.2 percent) were against lefties.

For context, opponents started a lefty in 46 of 162 games (28.4 percent)

The percentage of starts vs. lefties isn't a full apples-to-apples comparison, because it doesn't take into account what the options were. Several of Wallner's starts came when Kepler was out for the year, which meant a weaker bench. 

You did hit the nail on the head in that Kepler's defense probably kept him in the game more often against a lefty. That 20.5 percent of his plate appearances came against lefties though only 11 percent of his starts did suggests that he hit against lefty relievers on a more regular basis.

This would be a really small sample size, I'm sure, but it did seem that if either Kepler or Wallner came off the bench to face a righty (most often replacing Margot) and then came to the spot where he would be facing a lefty later in the game, Kepler was more likely to stay in the game and do that (partially for defensive purposes), whereas Wallner was more likely to get pulled for a second pinch hitter. 

My primary point, however, is to say that Kepler didn't grow into facing more lefties over the course of his career. If anything, he tilted in the direction of facing fewer lefties over time. 

In my opinion. Kepler typically wasn’t platooned throughout his career but he was pulled into a platoon spot last year when we developed lefty issue with Wallner and Julien. 
 

That’s the evil of this thing. If you have 3 left handed hitters and two short side right handers. One of the lefties avoids the platoon. Or 4 lefties and 3 short side right handers. Again… one of the lefties avoids the platoon. 
 

So when something happens to one of the left handed hitters. Injured or sent down. That extra left handed hitter that was avoiding the platoon… which was Kepler. He gets sucked down into the platoon role because you got these shortsiders on the roster that also need the cover and someone has to do it. 
 

This is what happened to Kepler last year. Wallner and Julien were sent down. Margot and Farmer did not. This is how this thing feeds on itself and becomes inescapable. 
 

And just a word of warning to those who believe that Erod or Jenkins can avoid this vortex. They can’t. Even if the Twins decide to not platoon Erod. He is stlll dependent on having enough platooning left handed hitters to keep him platoon free at all times during the season. He may start the year platoon free but when one of the other left handers go down. He will be sucked into it. 

[IndianaTwin]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I don't care if they trade for Kasper. 

...

You called? 

[IndianaTwin]

22 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

In my opinion. Kepler typically wasn’t platooned throughout his career but he was pulled into a platoon spot last year when we developed lefty issue with Wallner and Julien. 
 

That’s the evil of this thing. If you have 3 left handed hitters and two short side right handers. One of the lefties avoids the platoon. Or 4 lefties and 3 short side right handers. Again… one of the lefties avoids the platoon. 
 

So when something happens to one of the left handed hitters. Injured or sent down. That extra left handed hitter that was avoiding the platoon… which was Kepler. He gets sucked down into the platoon role because you got these shortsiders on the roster that also need the cover and someone has to do it. 
 

This is what happened to Kepler last year. Wallner and Julien were sent down. Margot and Farmer did not. This is how this thing feeds on itself and becomes inescapable. 

Again, Kepler was dramatically platooned throughout his career. Here's his career numbers, and they don't change much on a year-by-year basis. If anything, they become more pronounced: 

The additional variable on the Wallner/Julien/Margot/Farmer piece has to do with options. The latter two didn't have one and help demonstrate why options can be so important, particularly with a four-man bench (effectively three, with the catcher).

I've appreciated the way you've framed the roster makeup questions as they apply to platooning. I think the challenge you've described would be different with even one more bench position to play with, resulting in one fewer "full-time" player, let alone two or three more bench players.

People have also highlighted Stengel, but he was working with an eight-man bench (if the roster was indeed 25 at the time -- I'm not sure). Teams then typically had only nine pitchers, and they weren't using a DH, so there were eight position players on the field and eight on the bench. It's easy to roster platoon advantages in that scenario.*

*It's also easier to manage platoons at other positions when your roster includes Berra, Mantle, Elston Howard, et. al.  

 

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, IndianaTwin said:

Again, Kepler was dramatically platooned throughout his career. Here's his career numbers, and they don't change much on a year-by-year basis. If anything, they become more pronounced: 

The additional variable on the Wallner/Julien/Margot/Farmer piece has to do with options. The latter two didn't have one and help demonstrate why options can be so important, particularly with a four-man bench (effectively three, with the catcher).

I've appreciated the way you've framed the roster makeup questions as they apply to platooning. I think the challenge you've described would be different with even one more bench position to play with, resulting in one fewer "full-time" player, let alone two or three more bench players.

People have also highlighted Stengel, but he was working with an eight-man bench (if the roster was indeed 25 at the time -- I'm not sure). Teams then typically had only nine pitchers, and they weren't using a DH, so there were eight position players on the field and eight on the bench. It's easy to roster platoon advantages in that scenario.*

*It's also easier to manage platoons at other positions when your roster includes Berra, Mantle, Elston Howard, et. al.  

 

Roughly 75% of pitchers in the majors are right handed. You'd expect a hitter to have roughly 3/4 of his PAs against righties. According to those PA numbers, 74.57% of his PAs came against righties. Those are not at all dramatic platooning numbers, those are numbers you'd expect from playing everyday since 75% of pitchers in the majors are right handed.

By comparison, Matt Wallner has faced 81.38% righties. Larnach 82.89% righties. Julien 88.58%. Those are dramatic platoon numbers.

[Riverbrian]

2 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

Again, Kepler was dramatically platooned throughout his career. Here's his career numbers, and they don't change much on a year-by-year basis, if anything becoming more pronounced: 

The additional variable on the Wallner/Julien/Margot/Farmer piece has to do with options. The latter two didn't have one and help demonstrate why options can be so important, particularly with a four-man bench (effectively three, with the catcher).

I've appreciated the way you've framed the roster makeup questions as they apply to platooning. I think it would change with even one more bench position to add, resulting in one fewer "full-time" player. People have also highlighted Stengel, but he was working with an eight-man bench (if the roster was indeed 25 at the time -- I'm not sure). Teams then typically had nine pitchers and weren't using a DH, so there were eight position players on the field and eight on the bench. It's easy to roster platoon advantages in that scenario.*

*It's also easier to manage platoons at other positions when your roster includes Berra, Mantle, Elston Howard, et. al.  

 

Kepler Career:

3170 PA's against right handers

1081 PA's against left handers. 

Career - 25 Percent of his AB's were against Lefties. 

In 2024:

317 PA's against right handers

82 PA's against left handers

2024 - 20 Percent of his AB's were against lefties. 

When Kepler was a young player still forming into whatever he was going to become. Kepler had 568 PA's as a 24 year old. 611 PA's as a 25 year old, 596 PA's has a 26 year old. Hard to get that many AB's if you are being platooned as strictly as Wallner and Larnach are being platooned. He wasn't. Kepler was granted the right to develop against the left handed pitcher at age 24, 25 and 26. Wallner and Larnach are not being granted the same development opportunity.    

Rocco did not start this extreme platoon strategy until Julien and Wallner arrived in 2023. That's when it reached a whole new level to the point that I'm complaining about. No team in MLB platoons as much as the Twins do.  

Kepler managed to avoid it until lefties got hurt or sent down which dropped the number of lefties on the roster forcing Kepler to be one. This year Julien and Wallner were sent down, Kirilloff was injured. During those times when a combination of those players were off the roster. Kepler got demoted to sitting so Margot could play against left handers. 

2024... First game of the season. Against the Royals - left hander Cole Ragans. 

Kepler is starting in RF and batting 6th.

Who wasn't in the game opening day against Ragans. Wallner, Julien and Kirilloff and 3 is the max amount to keep glued to the bench. They were one lefty hitter over stocked so Kepler faced the left hander.  

Margot at DH, Farmer at 2B and Santana at 1B started instead of Wallner, Julien and Kirilloff. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

Another thought for everyone's consideration.

The Twins were able to throw a lineup together of 9 players in the right handed batters box last year against left handed pitching multiple times last year. That's impressive but the problem is that the Twins were not able to come anywhere close to that against right handed pitching. They could bat 5 at most out of the left handed batters box against right handed pitching. 

By chasing the platoon split against left handed pitching as hard as you did... You played it correctly and very very wrong at the same time. You hyper focused on the left hander when you should have focused on the right handers that make up 75% of the pitching population.

If you want to play the platoon split. The 75% throwing right handed trumps the percentage points you gain from the 3 players that keep away from lefties. 

Cleveland last year with 6 left handed hitters and 4 switch hitters had the ability to place 9 batters in the left handed box against right handed pitching. They played the 75%. We played the 25%. 

Dear, Mr. Zoll,

When you consider that we had a full lineup of hitters in the right handed batters box against the left hander last year. And when you consider that Falvey has announced publicly that you are looking for a right handed outfielder this year. YOU SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF ME. 

Sincerly,

 

Riverbrian

 

[Riverbrian]

Does anyone know the Twins record in 2024 when a left handed starter starts and their record when a right handed pitcher starts?

I know there is a whole lot of game after the opening pitch so those numbers won't mean everything but they might at least suggest that it is or isn't working to a slight degree at least. 

I'm too lazy to look it up and to be honest... I'm not exactly sure what website would provide this information. 

[jorgenswest]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Does anyone know the Twins record in 2024 when a left handed starter starts and their record when a right handed pitcher starts?

I can tell you that August 20 and following they faced 10 left handed starters. Margot was the lead off hitter in 7 of them. In four games no left handed hitters were in the starting line up. In only one game were two left handed hitters in the starting line up.

They went 0-10. If they go 5-5 they end up with 87 wins. Detroit and Kansas City made the playoffs with 86.

2024 line ups

[ashbury]

7 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

But, but, but... Betteridge.*

*That is you that is always citing him, right? 

You may be thinking of Brian's brother from another mother.  😀

7 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

I enjoyed being able to attend the SABR convention in Minneapolis this summer, and one of the highlights was a panel discussion that included Falvey. He talked a fair amount about lineup construction, his relationship with Rocco and how they work together. He talked about how they talk (at least) daily during the season, including very soon after each game. They talk about how the game went, strategic decisions and lots of other stuff. It was actually pretty interesting, and I mean that in a positive way.

The Twins' VP of Strategery & Innovation, Josh Kalk, also took part in the panel, and some of what you related may have come from him (I didn't take notes).  One addition I want to point out is that in each post-game review, they took special interest in learning where Rocco deviated from the plan they had jointly put together for the game, which would happen multiple times in most games.  Kalk's implication was that the analytics team wanted to learn from these instances, not vice versa.  So much for managing by a static spreadsheet.

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I can tell you that August 20 and following they faced 10 left handed starters. Margot was the lead off hitter in 7 of them. In three games no left handed hitters were in the starting line up. In only one game were two left handed hitters in the starting line up.

They went 0-10. If they go 5-5 they end up with 87 wins. Detroit and Kansas City made the playoffs with 86.

2024 line ups

0-10

That would have made them 12-14 vs right handed starters during that same time period. 12-14 isn't great but it's better than 0-10 when the chips are down. 

I know there is more game to play after starters leave the game so the whole story isn't being told... but 0-10 is still a story.

In other words... it didn't work at the end of the year.  

[jorgenswest]

19 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

0-10

That would have made them 12-14 vs right handed starters during that same time period. 12-14 isn't great but it's better than 0-10 when the chips are down. 

I know there is more game to play after starters leave the game so the whole story isn't being told... but 0-10 is still a story.

In other words... it didn't work at the end of the year.  

It looks like there were 4 games in the last 10 against lefties with no left handed batters. They scored 8 runs in those games.

Is it possible that a few left handed batters will get the left handed starter off rhythm? Maybe it doesn’t show up in the stats for the left handed batter. Maybe that disruption of rhythm shows up for the batter or two following the left handed batter.

It didn’t work. It needs to be addressed. I hope it isn’t addressed with budget friendly short side platoon bats.

[T.O.]

8 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

It does the exact opposite. Other than Willi Castro who is a switch hitter and therefore the player who led the team in AB's because of versatility in the field and his non-platooning. There is such thing as "thriving" for the players you list as benefactors of the platoon system. They may get roster spots as a result but no thriving. 

Let's look at the names you list

Austin Martin just facing left handed hitting does nothing for Austin Martin. It gives him a roster spot. Eventually, someone gets hurt and now Martin has to face right handers. If Martin could hit right handers, there would be no reason to limit him to left handed hitting. The Platoon only hurts Martin and makes him a development failure.  

Michael Helman: It gives him a roster spot and keeps the team from giving someone better that roster spot. Of course... the giving someone better the roster spot comment assumes that Helman isn't that good to begin with. Is he or isn't he... We won't know. He's just there because you failed to develop Wallner or Larnach beyond the point that they require someone like Helman to be attached to them. This year and every year after that. 

DaShawn Keirsay: This guy is going to be punished beyond recognition. There is no thriving for him... just a big huge unscalable wall. You can only protect 3 left handed hitters. If you have Wallner and Larnach occupying two of the three spots how do you find a spot for Keirsay? He can only wait for an injury to either Wallner or Larnach for a call up. Keirsay isn't eligible to be called up if Buxton gets hurt because he would bring the number of left handers on the roster beyond what they can protect. This is important to understand so I'll repeat it and bold it. If Buxton gets hurt... Keirsay isn't eligible to be called up because he would bring the number of left handed hitters on the roster beyond what they can protect.

If Keirsay gets a roster spot with Wallner and Larnach also hanging around. One of them will now have to... all of a sudden... move into a full time role which means... all of a sudden... they have to face left handers because you have too many on the roster and you can't protect them all. The extreme platooning that we do... limits the number of left handers that we can roster to 3. If you go to 4 left handers... one of them must face left handed hitting. The platooning that we do... KILLS Keirsay. 

OK... That's Great... Keirsay added to the Roster.  Wallner can face left handers now... I've been asking for this. WALLNER won't be prepared for this. We have spent two years hiding him from this. Wallner has been developed to guarantee that he needs a handcuff at all times. But... Hey... now we need him. And this is going to happen in September with the playoffs on the line. Go face Framber now Matt. I know we didn't trust you to face him for 4 years but we need you now.        

Maybe I shouldn't use a quote this long but very well said.

First a player needs an identity, a place to fit in. Second the team needs an identity with a lineup that plays well together as one unit. When the manager moves people around so much neither happens.
I would rather see more players have a chance succeed and fail than to not give them a chance at all.

[IndianaTwin]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

You may be thinking of Brian's brother from another mother.  😀

The Twins' VP of Strategery & Innovation, Josh Kalk, also took part in the panel, and some of what you related may have come from him (I didn't take notes).  One addition I want to point out is that in each post-game review, they took special interest in learning where Rocco deviated from the plan they had jointly put together for the game, which would happen multiple times in most games.  Kalk's implication was that the analytics team wanted to learn from these instances, not vice versa.  So much for managing by a static spreadsheet.

Likely! 😀 I knew it was one of the regulars.

On the panel, it could have been Kalk -- I didn't take notes either. It was the session out of the weekend that I most wished someone could have reported on for TD, just because of the snapshot it provided into conversations like this. 

[USAFChief]

9 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

@USAFChief Does this change your opinion about the front office, and Falvey specifically, having any input on lineups or being on the same page as Rocco when it comes to how he manages the team?

 

Why would I change my opinion? Rocco writes out the lineups. Rocco makes PHing decisions. 

Falvey (on platooning):

 It’s probably more of a conversation for Rocco, because despite what others think from time to time, we don’t have a Bat Phone to the dugout. He makes those calls. It’s up to Rocco to navigate that with the players

[chpettit19]

26 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Why would I change my opinion? Rocco writes out the lineups. Rocco makes PHing decisions. 

Falvey (on platooning):

 It’s probably more of a conversation for Rocco, because despite what others think from time to time, we don’t have a Bat Phone to the dugout. He makes those calls. It’s up to Rocco to navigate that with the players

It's perfect that you left out the part where he says they talk about it. Sums up your thought process well on this one. Presented with insider info from front office personnel that the front office talks to the manager daily? Doesn't matter. Provided with direct Falvey quotes that he talks to Rocco about the decisions/strategies? Ignore that part. Provided with information that Falvey gives presentations about meeting daily with Rocco to discuss lineups and in game strategy? Why would that change anything?

Rocco and the front office are a team. Here's another Falvey quote for you: "Rocco is my manager. I believe in his process, I believe in him, I believe in the partnership I have with him." Rocco isn't doing things Falvey doesn't think is smart. He's not sitting in meetings with his boss everyday for years explaining his decisions and having Falvey say "well that's dumb, I definitely don't agree with that and wish my manager would do things a different way." He's not having Falvey defend and back him when so many are calling for his head because Falvey thinks a team should be managed a different way. Of course Rocco makes the final call, but Falvey agrees with the calls he makes and how he manages, and they work as a team.