Under-the-Radar Options: These Two Free Agents Address the Minnesota Twins' Needs

[DJL44]

30 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

You aren't winning with crappy veterans. Take a chance on upside. It's the only realistic path to success.

You're not winning with mediocre AAA players either.

[tony&rodney]

50 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Moving Royce to 1B means they have holes at 3B and 2B. Royce isn't a great fielder at 3B, but he's better than Miranda. The only player on the roster I would want to play everyday at 2B besides Royce Lewis is Willi Castro.

A Lee, Correa, Keaschall, Lewis infield with Rodriguez in the outfield would be placing a heavy bet on rookies. That's the risk/reward play. Even with those players in those positions they could still use Laureano as the 5th outfielder.

Exactly. If Falvey doesn't want to make any trades, it is time to go with some talent even if it is inexperienced. I have seen enough of 1 win players. I get that others are fine with going forth with what we have now plus adding one or two has beens. I guess I'm out on that plan. Sometimes people just see things differently.

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

You're not winning with mediocre AAA players either.

Agreed, but they have unknown upside, and options.....mediocre veterans have neither. 

[DJL44]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

Agreed, but they have unknown upside, and options.....mediocre veterans have neither. 

The upside for Helman and Keirsey is as well-known as it is for any other 28-year-old professional player. Expectations should be quite low. Martin was already tried once and was terrible. I'm not sure what he did last year that makes people want to depend on him this year.

[RpR]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

To be fair, Margot hadn't been able to field at his peak in over a year, and it wasn't just Margot. Should they never bring in another veteran ever? Of course they should. But saying it's just Margot isn't accurate either. Kyle Farmer's OPS didn't get over .600 until August 15th last year. And that was for 1 day. It didn't get back over .600 until September 4th. His BA was at or above .200 only 3 days total before September 7th.

Margot may be the poster child right now, but it's not just about him. At least not for many of us. It's about them refusing to move on from veteran position players without options. They carried Kyle Farmer all season despite him not being able to play SS anymore and being a sub-.600 OPS bat. You add that to Manuel Margot and Joey Gallo the year before and Andrelton Simmons for an entire lost season and rostering Kyle Garlick and Jordan Luplow instead of Margot in previous seasons and there's plenty more there than just Manuel Margot to be concerned about when it comes to the Twins veteran additions lately.

Martin, Lewis, Kirilloff, Julien, Jeffers and Castro were the only players with Defense Rtot and Rdrs being solid in the minus column, with Castro being worst and Castro's numbers making Margot look like a All Star Fielder.

That was a problem larger than the one you were annoyed by.

Lee was actuall good at 3rd base and Miranda was much better than Lewis.

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The upside for Helman and Keirsey is as well-known as it is for any other 28-year-old professional player. Expectations should be quite low. Martin was already tried once and was terrible. I'm not sure what he did last year that makes people want to depend on him this year.

I'm ok trying Martin as a backup again....it was one year, though I'm not overly hopeful.

If the options are them or veterans with no upside, I'm rolling the dice. Why clog up the roster with more Margot and Farmer level players? We clearly won't agree, so I guess we're done here. 

[DJL44]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

If the options are them or veterans with no upside, I'm rolling the dice. Why clog up the roster with more Margot and Farmer level players? We clearly won't agree, so I guess we're done here. 

I disagree that Laureano and Bader are "Margot level players". Margot was a below average outfielder and both of those guys can catch the ball. Bader was a Gold Glove winner and he's still pretty damned good.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, RpR said:

Martin, Lewis, Kirilloff, Julien, Jeffers and Castro were the only players with Defense Rtot and Rdrs being solid in the minus column, with Castro being worst and Castro's numbers making Margot look like a All Star Fielder.

That was a problem larger than the one you were annoyed by.

Lee was actuall good at 3rd base and Miranda was much better than Lewis.

You're right. Trade Castro and bring back Margot! Save the Twins! Solid point. Really got me on this one. In fact, trade Castro to Colorado for Farmer. World Series here we come!

[old nurse]

6 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

Put Laureano's 2024 numbers side by side with Eddie Rosario's numbers in his last year as a Twin and try to guess which is which. 

Try putting Rosario’s numbers next to Shane Mack’s numbers in their last years as Twins and she which is which. 

[RpR]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You're right. Trade Castro and bring back Margot! Save the Twins! Solid point. Really got me on this one. In fact, trade Castro to Colorado for Farmer. World Series here we come!

Would be better than it is as of now.

Reality bites.

Farmer and Castro at 2nd.

They now  have no one at second base who is not a liability, they Will miss Farmer.

[chpettit19]

27 minutes ago, RpR said:

Would be better than it is as of now.

Reality bites.

Farmer and Castro at 2nd.

They now  have no one at second base who is not a liability, they Will miss Farmer.

But Baseball Savant says Willi Castro was the Twins 6th best fielder (+3 fielding run value) and Manuel Margot was tied for 4th worse (-3). Tied with Julien and Kirilloff who you name as a big problem on your other post. And Royce Lewis was 8th (+1).

We're not going to agree on this. Your stances are well known. Give you all the vets. Give you all the defense no matter if they can hit or not. I'll take my thumbs downs from you and survive another day. Arguing that Margot or Farmer are better baseball players than Castro is quite the stance to take.

I'm pretty sure we've been over where those defensive metrics you quote on b-r come from. You treat them as if they're like a batting average and based on hard data. They aren't. They're people like you and me sitting behind computer screens making judgement calls. Willi Castro is a better baseball player than Margot or Farmer. Suggesting otherwise makes this a nonsensical discussion I want no part of. Enjoy your day.

[Hubie29]

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

If you can trade Paddack and replace his salary with these 2 (or similar guys) and be under your budget, ok. I'm not overly excited about these 2, or any 1 year vet place holders. This regime doesn't move on from them no matter how they perform. If Laureano performs like he did for Cleveland last year, how confident is anyone that he wouldn't be on this roster all year with a 45 OPS+? That scares me way more than any rookie with options. 

But I think the question with filling these perceived needs of right handed corner outfield bat and 1B is what you have to subtract to fill them. Because the answer sure doesn't appear to be nothing. If you have to subtract Castro to add these 2, no thanks. If its just Paddack, whatever. Is it Paddack and Vazquez? Now we need another catcher, too. It's not as simple as "who can fill these needs" because you need to subtract some guys to be able to add some guys.

With Paddack, it's simple addition by subtraction. If we have to rely on him being in the rotation or high leverage spots, we might as well raise the white flag now. 

[Linus]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Sadly?

Plenty of drinks on board, large library of yacht rock downloaded, Ambrosia, Toto and Little River Band cranked on Bose Speakers and I'll be bringing in Dancers.  

Sounds like the Love Boat (Vikings version)😀

[Riverbrian]

7 minutes ago, Linus said:

Sounds like the Love Boat (Vikings version)😀

Everybody sing a long. 

There's a port... on a western bay... and it serves... a hundred ships a day.

Lonely Sailors... Pass their time away... and they talk about their homes.

And the Sailors say Brandy... You're a fine girl

 

[DocBauer]

Based on what I saw last season from Martin, which wasn't good, I'd have him ranked behind Helman as a backup at this point. Doesn't mean I'm giving up all hope on Martin, but Helman has more power, can play more positions, and pretty much has to be a better defensive OF.

Laureano on an inexpensive deal is a nice option to compete for that RH OF spot as his defense isn't terrible, he can be a 3rd/4th option in CF, and has been mostly split neutral in his career. So while he's not great, he's solid, and not JUST a short side platoon mate. Grichuk is probably a step up on Laureano, also with mostly neutral splits, but might cost too much for the Twins to bring on board.

No to France. He's had 2 pretty good years and has been average to below average otherwise. Ad someone mentioned...and I have previously brought up ad well...Josh Bell can share 1B/DH duties with Miranda, has a solid bat and OB, still has decent power, and is a switch hitter with very neutral splits for his career. At around $7M, he's been a much better option than France, or a 40yo about to fall off a cliff.

It's hard to have too many LH batters when 75% of the league is RH. And there's nothing wrong with having some RH bats on your team. The problem is adding RH bats for a limited role since they can't hit RHP but invariably are asked to as they play a hell of a lot more than 25% of the time.

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

I disagree that Laureano and Bader are "Margot level players". Margot was a below average outfielder and both of those guys can catch the ball. Bader was a Gold Glove winner and he's still pretty damned good.

I've stated that I have only one wish this off-season. 

I'm willing to attach a rider to that one wish.   

If the Twins demonstrated the willingness to actually release a 4 million dollar 1 year vet producing low bar numbers. I'd be more tolerant of such things. Solano turned out to be a nice cheap pickup in 2023. Who knows... Maybe these guys could produce.   

However, the Twins have consistently demonstrated no such inclination so my wish remains that they simply not go there.  

[rv78]

11 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Why is " we have to get an expensive FA" so ingrained in our psyche? Are you willing to trade a Correa just so we can acquire these guys? Why do I get that "Margot" feeling when I see Laureano? or Rhys Hoskins when I see France? They are the same type of guys. The league has figured out the all-or-nothing types, that's why production at DH, 1B & cOF are way down throughout the league in '24 because these type of players packed these positions. I don't expect a quick or significant adjustment from these hitters. So FO when you get this urge just say NO. We can't afford the money, needed talent lost & expensive unnecessary talent gained.

Miranda will be our most productive 1Bman we have had in years. 1 more year removed from a shoulder injury & secured at 1B, I see a much healthier Miranda, who hits well all pitchers & even better against RHPs. But I do see a need for a safety net there, so I'll plug (RH) Romy Gonzales (BOS) again. Last year he absolutely mashed LHPs, great PHer, cheap to obtain, cheap to maintain, He's a very solid glove so when not needed at 1B he can platoon anywhere in the INF or OF so we don't have to have an extra roster spot & he's available for 4yrs.

The problem with "safety nets" is that Rocco doesn't see or use them that way. Once on the roster, he sees them as an intregal part of his platoon strategy and the everyday player who needs to be playing everyday becomes a platoon player as well. I hate to say it but the "safety net" needs to be a AAA player that isn't part of Rocco's platoon strategy.

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I've stated that I have only one wish this off-season. 

I'm willing to attach a rider to that one wish.   

If the Twins demonstrated the willingness to actually release a 4 million dollar 1 year vet producing low bar numbers. I'd be more tolerant of such things. Solano turned out to be a nice cheap pickup in 2023. Who knows... Maybe these guys could produce.   

However, the Twins have consistently demonstrated no such inclination so my wish remains that they simply not go there.  

Don't back down.

[AceWrigley]

The Twins should just call up and install Aaron Sabato at first base. Now, we all know he'll probably set the all-time strikeout record, but thats the point. The fans could cheer every strikeout as the count down to immortality glows on the scoreboard. Gotta find ways to enjoy your baseball.