It's the Roster

[Mike Sixel]

They literally have three backups or worse in the starting OF, and people don't think it's a roster issue.....I don't even know what to say. 

[Major League Ready]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They literally have three backups or worse in the starting OF, and people don't think it's a roster issue.....I don't even know what to say. 

They could make a statement by DFAing Gallo and bringing up Larnach or Wallner.  Then, bring Kiersey up to AAA. Trade MAT in a month and bring up Kiersey.  Not much to do in the IF.  I think we want Royce at 3B until someone else makes more sense.  Correa is not going anywhere.  Polanco will be back soon and I think we want Kirilloff at 1B.  I guess we could give Williams a shot and play Kirilloff in the OF.  What do you do about Buxton?  He has been brutal lately.  His wRC+ in June is 47.

[chpettit19]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They literally have three backups or worse in the starting OF, and people don't think it's a roster issue.....I don't even know what to say. 

Someone as good as, let's say, Buck Showalter would have those 3 backups or worse playing like stars! There's no way an old school guy, with fire in his gut, and a feel for the game, like Showalter wouldn't have these guys playing well above their talent level. Managers are vital, and coaches turn bad players into good ones! It's why the Met's owner would never have to do a mid-season presser to discuss how his half a billion dollar team is struggling. Oh wait...

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Major League Ready said:

They could make a statement by DFAing Gallo and bringing up Larnach or Wallner.  Then, bring Kiersey up to AAA. Trade MAT in a month and bring up Kiersey.  Not much to do in the IF.  I think we want Royce at 3B until someone else makes more sense.  Correa is not going anywhere.  Polanco will be back soon and I think we want Kirilloff at 1B.  I guess we could give Williams a shot and play Kirilloff in the OF.  What do you do about Buxton?  He has been brutal lately.  His wRC+ in June is 47.

I have zero confidence they are willing to move on. It's very disappointing. 

DFA Kepler and Gallo. Call up any two OF from Larnach, Wallner, Kiersey, Celestino. Possibly Williams and move AK to the OF.

Il Buxton until he can play the field. Call up another OF or Williams or Carmago, who can catch and DH. 

Keep all the young guys in the lineup all year. 

[LA Vikes Fan]

Agree with all of the criticisms of both Rocco and the players. The better question is - what are we going to do about it? Rocco says the approaches by players aren't working. Ok, sit those players. Sit them every day. that probably means no ABs for Gallo  or Kepler and MAY make the FO do the right thing and replace them with Wallner and Miranda. Drop Buxton to 6 or 7 in the Order and make him work his way up. Same for Correa. Let the younger LH hitters face LH pitching and see if they improve. Run a daily top of 5 of something like Julien/Solano, Lewis, Kirilloff/Miranda, Jeffers. Wallner, with Castro in there when Vasquez catches, and then find spots for guys like Buxton, Correa, and Taylor. Put Polanco on the 2 hole when he returns and find a way to keep Julien on the roster even if it means losing Solano or Castro. This team needs to be shaken up and Rocco controls the lineup card. Put your money where your mouth is and use it. 

Will this kind of a lineup be better? Who knows. I do know one hitting though, it's unlikely to be worse. Don't rip the players for their approach and then leave them in the same spots. Tie spots to actual production. 

[LA Vikes Fan]

To add to my earlier post - how to get the spots to keep Wallner, Julien, Kirilloff, Lewis and Miranda on the team?  Need two spots, three when Polanco is ready (his absence is being keenly felt in my opinion).  DFA/trade Gallo, Il Buxton until he can play in the field at least 3-4 days a week, and DFA/trade Kepler.  Do it, and do it now. 

[mnfireman]

Gallo - 109 OPS+/112 wRC+

Kepler - 84 OPS+/85 wRC+

Gallo willing/able to play RF, CF, LF, 1B & DH

Kepler willing to play RF

I think I would keep Gallo and DFA/trade Kepler, but Gallo might draw more trade interest.

[Riverbrian]

44 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I agree with the general idea of playing your best guys everyday. And I know we agree that this team is lacking truly impactful bats. Where I think this ties into the idea of the OP, though, is the lack of talent. It's easy to set Atlanta's lineup everyday and just stick with it. They have 10 guys (2 catchers) that are clearly everyday players right now, and 3 guys who are clearly bench guys (they even carry a 3rd catcher). The Twins have a whole bunch of bench players. 

There's very little difference in the 13 guys the Twins continue to roster as position players, in my view. I do wish they'd just put Julien, Lewis, and Kirilloff in the top 3 spots (to see what they can do), and never take them out, for the next 3 weeks at least, but otherwise it feels like splitting hairs to call anyone their "best players" right now. They "have to" play Correa everyday, and they do. Buxton is a weird case, and I'd prefer they IL him for the rest of the year so they don't feel obligated to play him. But who else on this team do we consider clearly "best players?"

And to tie this into the OP again, I think this is the FO's plan. I think they view 7, 8, or 9 position player spots the same way they view the pen. Not worth the investment as they can mix and match pieces to find advantages that allow them to thrive. They view the margins as way bigger than I think they should. Platooning, pen matchups, defensive versatility, etc. are ways teams can "win on the margins." This FO has decided to dive into those margins and build a team around them.

You may view the roster differently, but I just see a bunch partial players they think they can mix and match into complete players. There aren't any "best players" on this team right now, if you ask me. It's why I'd like to see them dive into the youth movement, and see if they can actually find some "best players."

Perfectly said. If you have Ronald Acuna... Yeah... play him every day. We don't have one of those. 

In the meantime... as we wait for an every day player to show up and actually play like an everyday player... Here's a question:  How do we know who are the best 9 players are so we can put the other 4 to sleep?

Is there anybody willing to trust the organization to pick the best 9 out of spring training to ride every day at this point. 

I don't and I generally support them.   

 

[Major League Ready]

17 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Gallo - 109 OPS+/112 wRC+

Kepler - 84 OPS+/85 wRC+

Gallo willing/able to play RF, CF, LF, 1B & DH

Kepler willing to play RF

I think I would keep Gallo and DFA/trade Kepler, but Gallo might draw more trade interest.

Gallo's wRC+ looks OK for the year but it is 68 for the last 6 weeks.  If you can trade him great but move on.

Kepler can go as well.

Put Buxton on the IL.

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Gallo's wRC+ looks OK for the year but it is 68 for the last 6 weeks.  If you can trade him great but move on.

Kepler can go as well.

Put Buxton on the IL.

I mean, Gallo was amazing at first, but not so much lately. He won't be back next year, and as constructed, this team isn't winning the WS. Now is the time to move on. See what you have in the young players so you can decide what to do next off season......

[mnfireman]

I also think that Buxton should be placed on the IL immediately and re-evaluated at the All-Star break.

Recall Wallner to take his place and play him regularly until the All-Star break. 

Reverse the catcher splits, Vazquez can still catch Maeda. Team ERA with Jeffers is 3.28, with Vazquez it 3.98. Opponents slash-line with Jeffers is .224/.287/.355 (.642 OPS), with Vazquez its .236/.300/.398 (.698 OPS).

Have Polanco use the full rehab, roughly until the All-Star break, to see how his hamstring holds up and see if Julien deserves to stay with the big club (I think Lewis is safe). 

DFA Kepler and give Larnach every day ABs to see if he can "figure it out" or if he is a AAAA player.

There are other moves that need to be made, but I don't think the team has the players to do it. Taylor is not an everyday CF, Castro and Solano are better as bench/role players than as everyday players and the BP needs 1 or 2 more reliable options.

 

[Coach Wheels]

The roster is not what we believed it would be, that's for sure.

With today being an off day, I would expect that the roster changes, whether a trade gets made, we DFA someone, whatever. Rocco was as angry as I've seen him.yesterday and he was spot on with respect to effort and mental toughness. I want to see Wallner and Larnach back for the weekend and I'll continue to wait on Miranda. Time to make.tough decisions FO, let's go!!

[Nine of twelve]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

"Who needs some ABs?" Why? Why would you intentionally play lesser players, just in case you need them later on? That's...not very well thought out. Play them if/when needed. 

You want to have reserve players as ready as possible when they are needed. Generally that won't happen if they don't get an AB at least a few times a week.

 

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

"Who needs a rest?" Good lord. Stop this nonsense.

All players need days off from time to time, especially catchers. It's just a question of how often.

 

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Play someone based on 7 or 10 ABs against a given pitcher over someone else and his 7 or 10 AB?

If it's 7 or 10 AB's I  generally concur. But some players do particularly well or particularly poorly against certain pitchers or certain types of pitchers.

 

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Same for "stadium." AFAIK, it's 60 ft 6 inches from the rubber to home in every MLB stadium.  

AFAIK no two stadiums have exactly the same outfield dimensions. For example, when you're playing in the Bronx it's good to have left-handed pull hitters in the lineup, especially those who tend to hit fly balls. When you're on the north side of Chicago pay attention to the wind. If it is blowing out, fly ball hitters are good. If it's blowing in, not so much.

Is there an advantage to having a set order game in and game out? Maybe. But to me, it would be foolish not to take these factors into account when setting a batting order.

And thanks for having this discussion.

[Hubie29]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

The reality was that it wasn't a bad roster, when you looked at it back in spring training. Vasquez is no superstar hitter and you hoped he would be a plus for the rotation, while Jeffers finds his place. Success.

In he infield, Gallo was fine at first, but his bat basically is below the level of Sano overall, ane he even cost more. Kirilloff came back and started strong. Just needs to play. Didn't expect Polanco to be out for so much of the season, and for Miranda to basically tank. But Julien, getting his major league legs, and Royce Lewis, are solid potential guys to build out future around.

I have no explanation for Correa.

Was there any plan to get Buxton back in the outfeidl, even at one of the corners? Now it is too late and Byron absically joins Kepler and Gallo as underperforming in key positions in the batting order. You can't have three positions like that - RF :F DH with such vast under performance. Add in Michael Taylor, who defends the outfield well as well as offers the occsional punch, bunt or stolen base. But he was basically supposed to be the 4th outfielder.

It looked a helluva a lot better coming out of spring training, folks. And the bench, sans Gordon, are actually the stars these days - Castro, Farmer and Solano playing more than they probably should.

 

Looked better on paper than it turned out, that's for sure. And the smoke and mirrors of leading a division when you are actually the 8-9-10th team out of 15 in the league has allowed the Twins to sell tickets. But the front office better make some hard choices if they don't want empty seats come August, and a deserted stadium come September.

 

The irony is that the St. Paul Saints aren't selling out, either...with dynamite offense, although overall suspect pitching. Lots of offense to pull to the majors, if a roster spot exists. Not much left in THAT pitching pipeline, sadly.

Yes it WAS a bad roster in spring training and when the season started. I stated this fact many times on this forum. How can you look at the names on this roster and believe they should be performing better? They were who they have always been.  Kepler, Farmer, Miranda, Gallo!, Kiriloff, Larnach etc., etc., etc.  It's not getting any better folks!

[nicksaviking]

The offense on this roster is just so stale; you toss the old stuff first when things get stale.

And just do it now. What's the hold up? Are we really going to go into 2024 only giving the young guys a months-long audition at a time before a demotion to defer to the vets? What will we learn about them? This team will be in the exact same situation they were last off season when they didn't know enough about these guys.

[Otaknam]

It is time to part ways with Gallo, a left handed Sano with much better defense. An occasional 450 foot home run for every 2 for 35 ABs with 55% strikeouts isn’t helping. And PAGAN needs to be DFAed. Time for some changes! If they keep floundering I wonder if they will consider trading Gray, who would be a very good number 4 on a real World Series contender, and is a free agent after this year. But this is not a team that can do anything in the playoffs, so hopefully they don’t make a silly trade to help win a playoff game or two. The good news is the starting pitchers have been very good for the most part, which they can build on for next year. After all, baseball development is the ultimate long game.

[Woof Bronzer]

 

13 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

AFAIK no two stadiums have exactly the same outfield dimensions. For example, when you're playing in the Bronx it's good to have left-handed pull hitters in the lineup, especially those who tend to hit fly balls. When you're on the north side of Chicago pay attention to the wind. If it is blowing out, fly ball hitters are good. If it's blowing in, not so much.

How has this type of convoluted over-thinking worked out for the Twins? 

Baseball is a game.  Play your best players.  

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

 

How has this type of convoluted over-thinking worked out for the Twins? 

Baseball is a game.  Play your best players.  

Who are the "best players" on the Twins right now? Who should be the 9 (or 10 if you're alternating catchers) guys that are in the lineup everyday?

[LastOnePicked]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Someone as good as, let's say, Buck Showalter would have those 3 backups or worse playing like stars! There's no way an old school guy, with fire in his gut, and a feel for the game, like Showalter wouldn't have these guys playing well above their talent level. Managers are vital, and coaches turn bad players into good ones! It's why the Met's owner would never have to do a mid-season presser to discuss how his half a billion dollar team is struggling. Oh wait...

That's a quality cherry you've picked. Good one. Meanwhile, the Francona-led Guardians are now in first place. (Yes, I know he's briefly on medical leave - maybe that gave his team even more of a push).

Look, no one manager can lead any miserable team to a championship. BUT ... I'd like to think that a team gifted with high-profile veterans, peppered with promising prospects and led by one of the strongest rotations in the game might be able to find themselves above .500. Rocco's team can't. In fact, they can't even seem to find the energy to play a full game.

It's not just that they Twins are losing, but how. And that at least lends itself to reasonable questions about coaching and culture.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, LastOnePicked said:

That's a quality cherry you've picked. Good one. Meanwhile, the Francona-led Guardians are now in first place. (Yes, I know he's briefly on medical leave - maybe that gave his team even more of a push).

Look, no one manager can lead any miserable team to a championship. BUT ... I'd like to think that a team gifted with high-profile veterans, peppered with promising prospects and led by one of the strongest rotations in the game might be able to find themselves above .500. Rocco's team can't. In fact, they can't even seem to find the energy to play a full game.

It's not just that they Twins are losing, but how. And that at least lends itself to reasonable questions about coaching and culture.

So you think this is a good hitting roster? It isn't the players?

[Woof Bronzer]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Who are the "best players" on the Twins right now? Who should be the 9 (or 10 if you're alternating catchers) guys that are in the lineup everyday?

Sorry I was unclear.  The point I was trying to make was, don't build your lineup around which way the wind is blowing that day and the dimensions out in right field and the handedness of the opener.  Build it around the best available players you have.  Atlanta trotted out the same lineup all 3 games I believe.  

[chpettit19]

22 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

That's a quality cherry you've picked. Good one. Meanwhile, the Francona-led Guardians are now in first place. (Yes, I know he's briefly on medical leave - maybe that gave his team even more of a push).

Look, no one manager can lead any miserable team to a championship. BUT ... I'd like to think that a team gifted with high-profile veterans, peppered with promising prospects and led by one of the strongest rotations in the game might be able to find themselves above .500. Rocco's team can't. In fact, they can't even seem to find the energy to play a full game.

It's not just that they Twins are losing, but how. And that at least lends itself to reasonable questions about coaching and culture.

Isn't pointing at Rocco cherry picking? Why are we only allowed to pick out 1 manager to blame if it's the Twins manager? You should've seen Astros social media the other day. They're calling for Dusty's head for his bullpen management. How about Bob Melvin in San Diego? Was he good last year (and most of his years in Oakland), but bad this year? Oliver Marmol forget how to manage this year?

I'd fire everyone. FO on down. But this is a flawed team. This is a team lacking in offensive talent. It's absolutely reasonable to question coaching, culture, whatever. But, as the title of this thread says, it's the roster. Managers, and coaches, simply don't turn bad players into good ones. Are there a whole lot of players playing well below what our expectations were? Correa and Vazquez are obvious answers with the bat. Are we shocked Buxton is injured and streaky? Surprised Gallo is a high K, high HR, streaky bat? Surprised Kepler isn't a good hitter? Or MAT? Castro is playing his best baseball since 2020, is that Rocco and Popkins? Are we surprised Farmer and Solano are best served as bench/utility players, and not starters? We surprised Pagan struggles in high leverage spots? Is Duran doing well because of Rocco? Jax fix himself cuz of Rocco? The rotation pitching so well because of Rocco?

It's talent. This roster is not talented enough. And managers and coaches don't make bad players good ones. They simply don't. 2 days ago was Rocco good because the Twins were in first? Why is Francona good despite being below .500 just because he's in first? That's not an impressive cherry you picked (even though I think Francona is great). Shouldn't the Cleveland fans be calling for his head since they're basically performing the same as the Twins?

[John Belinski]

Do not understand why Buck isn't on IR and Wallner not on team. Wallner was on base 8 times in a row and they sent him down.  With the lack of hitters on the team it doesn't make sense that Wallner is not on team and he may not help, but let's give him another try. 

Rocco has to go if Twins are going to have any chance of making playoffs. Seems like a nice guy, but just doesn't seem to be a leader and seems to have no answers on how to improve Twins. After the bad second half last year what will he change to not have a repeat this year?

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I agree with the general idea of playing your best guys everyday. And I know we agree that this team is lacking truly impactful bats. Where I think this ties into the idea of the OP, though, is the lack of talent. It's easy to set Atlanta's lineup everyday and just stick with it. They have 10 guys (2 catchers) that are clearly everyday players right now, and 3 guys who are clearly bench guys (they even carry a 3rd catcher). The Twins have a whole bunch of bench players. 

There's very little difference in the 13 guys the Twins continue to roster as position players, in my view. I do wish they'd just put Julien, Lewis, and Kirilloff in the top 3 spots (to see what they can do), and never take them out, for the next 3 weeks at least, but otherwise it feels like splitting hairs to call anyone their "best players" right now. They "have to" play Correa everyday, and they do. Buxton is a weird case, and I'd prefer they IL him for the rest of the year so they don't feel obligated to play him. But who else on this team do we consider clearly "best players?"

And to tie this into the OP again, I think this is the FO's plan. I think they view 7, 8, or 9 position player spots the same way they view the pen. Not worth the investment as they can mix and match pieces to find advantages that allow them to thrive. They view the margins as way bigger than I think they should. Platooning, pen matchups, defensive versatility, etc. are ways teams can "win on the margins." This FO has decided to dive into those margins and build a team around them.

You may view the roster differently, but I just see a bunch partial players they think they can mix and match into complete players. There aren't any "best players" on this team right now, if you ask me. It's why I'd like to see them dive into the youth movement, and see if they can actually find some "best players."

I don't disagree the lineup is talent-poor. At all. I was one of the few who spent all winter and spring questioning where the runs were coming from. My exact quote: "there's no there there."

However, I don't think that invalidates my points. They certainly have "best players," even if said best players aren't really all that good compared to others. And it just makes it even MORE important to not exaggerate the talent deficit by intentionally putting in even less dangerous hitters. Why TF wasn't Correa in yesterday's lineup? Against a below average leftie, no less?

Nor do I think this is a recent issue with Rocco. I know we've discussed this previously. I've had this issue with Rocco (and/or the FO) since season 1. I firmly believe if Rocco had Atlanta's team 2 or 3 players sit out yesterday's "day game after night." It's somehow too hard on players, supposedly benefitting from the best training and conditioning on the planet, to play every day. Even though players did it for a century or more.

 

 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

I don't disagree the lineup is talent-poor. At all. I was one of the few who spent all winter and spring questioning where the runs were coming from. My exact quote: "there's no there there."

However, I don't think that invalidates my points. They certainly have "best players," even if said best players aren't really all that good compared to others. And it just makes it even MORE important to not exaggerate the talent deficit by intentionally putting in even less dangerous hitters. Why TF wasn't Correa in yesterday's lineup? Against a below average leftie, no less?

Nor do I think this is a recent issue with Rocco. I know we've discussed this previously. I've had this issue with Rocco (and/or the FO) since season 1. 

 

 

I don't disagree. I'm just saying there aren't 9 guys who I see as clearly their "best players." It's not even about their best players being not good enough. It's that I don't see 9 guys who are clearly better than the other guys. It's possible you do. But I don't.

I agree they rest guys too much. I agree they're way too extreme with platoons. I hate how much they mess around with the top of the order. But I can't pick out 9 guys and say "these are clearly your 9 best players, play them everyday."

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

But who else on this team do we consider clearly "best players?"

I think it is in their short and long term interest to play Royce Lewis and Alex Kirilloff as much as possible.

[chpettit19]

Just now, DJL44 said:

I think it is in their short and long term interest to play Royce Lewis and Alex Kirilloff as much as possible.

100% agreed. And Julien. And Wallner. And Larnach. And Miranda. I don't expect all those guys to be great, or even MLB quality. But they need to find out. And, offensively, they can't be worse than what we're currently running out there.

[chpettit19]

24 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Sorry I was unclear.  The point I was trying to make was, don't build your lineup around which way the wind is blowing that day and the dimensions out in right field and the handedness of the opener.  Build it around the best available players you have.  Atlanta trotted out the same lineup all 3 games I believe.  

I'm with you 100% in the big picture. Atlanta has 10 clear everyday guys, and 3 guys who are clear bench guys. The Twins don't. It's a flaw in roster construction. They appear to want to build their team around flawed, interchangeable pieces that they hope they can put in the right situations enough to improve their overall performance. It doesn't help that the guys they counted on to be their stable core (Buxton, Polanco, Correa) have all face planted in 1 way or another. But the rest of the roster is built poorly. It's why, even though I'd clear house, I don't put so much blame on Rocco, and the coaches. I don't think they're great by any means, but you can only do so much with such a flawed roster.

[DJL44]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

100% agreed. And Julien. And Wallner. And Larnach. And Miranda. I don't expect all those guys to be great, or even MLB quality. But they need to find out. And, offensively, they can't be worse than what we're currently running out there.

I think Larnach is a better option than Kepler and I would have him playing every day in the big leagues right now.

Miranda needs to be at AAA, he hasn't earned a spot and would probably make things worse at the moment. He was one of the biggest problems they had in April and May.

Wallner and Julien give back as much on defense as they provide on offense. Instead of losing 3-2 they help you lose 4-3.

[Jocko87]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Francona is about as stoic as they come.  

And two months ago we all knew that Tito's bloop troop would get it together and here we are.  Nobody feels that way about a Rocco team.