Can the Twins Get Better at the Deadline?

[RpR]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

I'm not afraid of youth like you are... What I am afraid of is vets who are failing and keeping their jobs.  

Somewhere in the baseball universe there are 400 players who can produce more than Kepler has the past 3 years. 

It's time to start looking at those 400 other players.   

    

You may be too young to remember, but I remember well the 1970s when a lot of rookies came up and the best were no better than the ones they replaced, the rest....

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, RpR said:

You may be too young to remember, but I remember well the 1970s when a lot of rookies came up and the best were no better than the ones they replaced, the rest....

None of us are too young to remember the current Diamondbacks team. Or the current Reds team. Or the current Orioles team. Or the Rays teams from the last decade. Or the Cubs, Astros, and Braves all going young and winning championships. We all remember the Guardians going young and blowing past the Twins just last year. Miami is 10 games over .500 by playing a bunch of young, unproven guys. You don't have to go back to the 70s to remember what young teams can do.

Comparing what fans are asking the Twins to do with the 2023 Oakland team is pretty absurd. Oakland ownership is actively trying to lose. They aren't trying to turn the team over to a new wave of players while spending all time high payroll amounts. Oakland being bad isn't an accident, or a plan gone wrong. It was the plan.

[Mike Sixel]

If I didn't know better, I'd assume RpR is a bot programmed to let us know all rookies are bad at every opportunity. At least they are consistent.

[Craig Arko]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

If I didn't know better, I'd assume RpR is a bot programmed to let us know all rookies are bad at every opportunity. At least they are consistent.

ChatRpR v.2023.

[Riverbrian]

18 minutes ago, RpR said:

You may be too young to remember, but I remember well the 1970s when a lot of rookies came up and the best were no better than the ones they replaced, the rest....

I was watching right with ya... I remember back into the 70's and I won't argue with your assessment.

The Twins didn't do a great job bringing up rookies and they still need some work on the development side of things...

However... it's just different today.

The Reds are killing it right now with the youngest team in baseball... The D-Backs are also relying on youth to lead the AL West right now over the Big Money Dodgers and Padres. The Marlins are out playing the Mets.  

The biggest hurdle young players have to get over besides major league competition is the fact that they can be sent down and held for depth meaning no matter what he does. Julien can OPS in the .800 range and he goes down to the minors because he can be sent down and Kepler the vet keeps his job because he can't be sent down. It's almost impossible to keep a major league job when you hit and get sent to the minors in favor of the guy who doesn't hit who can't be sent down to the minors. There is nothing the minor league players can do but wait for injury for a cup of coffee.  

But, this discussion isn't about youth as much as it is about Kepler and Gallo. 

Kepler and Gallo are at the very bottom of the offensive problem that is hurting our Twins. Kepler and Gallo haven't produced decently in 3 years.

They won't be back next year. There are probably 6 or 7 players in St. Paul right now who can produce what they are producing and they probably would produce better. As bad as Miranda was... he was better than Kepler. Larnach certainly didn't light the world on fire but he was better than Kepler. Julien looks like a real good hitter but that won't keep in a Twins uniform because he has options.  

This is about Kepler and Gallo... They are hurting us... It's raffle drum time.  

 

[RpR]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

If I didn't know better, I'd assume RpR is a bot programmed to let us know all rookies are bad at every opportunity. At least they are consistent.

Possibly just as you and some others are bot programmed to believe the rookies that so far have been meh are going to suddenly turn into super stars, could be.

[Riverbrian]

2 minutes ago, RpR said:

Possibly just as you and some others are bot programmed to believe the rookies that so far have been meh are going to suddenly turn into super stars, could be.

They don't have to be super stars. 

Remember that old joke. 

Two people are in the woods and they run into a bear. The first person (Max Kepler) gets on his knees and starts to pray. The 2nd Person (Matt Wallner) laces up his sneakers. The Vet Kepler says what are you doing... you can't out run a bear. The Rookie Wallner says I don't have to... I just have to out run you. 

[RpR]

3 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I was watching right with ya... I remember back into the 70's and I won't argue with your assessment.

The Twins didn't do a great job bringing up rookies and they still need some work on the development side of things...

However... it's just different today.

The Reds are killing it right now with the youngest team in baseball... The D-Backs are also relying on youth to lead the AL West right now over the Big Money Dodgers and Padres. The Marlins are out playing the Mets.  

The biggest hurdle young players have to get over besides major league competition is the fact that they can be sent down and held for depth meaning no matter what he does. Julien can OPS in the .800 range and he goes down to the minors because he can be sent down and Kepler the vet keeps his job because he can't be sent down. It's almost impossible to keep a major league job when you hit and get sent to the minors in favor of the guy who doesn't hit who can't be sent down to the minors. There is nothing the minor league players can do but wait for injury for a cup of coffee.  

But, this discussion isn't about youth as much as it is about Kepler and Gallo. 

Kepler and Gallo are at the very bottom of the offensive problem that is hurting our Twins. Kepler and Gallo haven't produced decently in 3 years.

They won't be back next year. There are probably 6 or 7 players in St. Paul right now who can produce what they are producing and they probably would produce better. As bad as Miranda was... he was better than Kepler. Larnach certainly didn't light the world on fire but he was better than Kepler. Julien looks like a real good hitter but that won't keep in a Twins uniform because he has options.  

This is about Kepler and Gallo... They are hurting us... It's raffle drum time.  

 

Well Kirilloff, whose is doing well and should remain, and Kepler have similar number of games but Kepler has 9 more rbi than Kirilloff.

So just how are Kepler and Gallo killing the team?

Gallo has same number of Ks as Buxton, and Kepler has 2 more Ks than Julien.

[terrydactyls]

1 minute ago, Riverbrian said:

I was watching right with ya... I remember back into the 70's and I won't argue with your assessment.

The Twins didn't do a great job bringing up rookies and they still need some work on the development side of things...

However... it's just different today.

The Reds are killing it right now with the youngest team in baseball... The D-Backs are also relying on youth to lead the AL West right now over the Big Money Dodgers and Padres. The Marlins are out playing the Mets.  

The biggest hurdle young players have to get over besides major league competition is the fact that they can be sent down and held for depth meaning no matter what he does... he goes down to the minors because he can be sent down and Kepler the vet keeps his job because he can't be sent down. It's almost impossible to keep a major league job when you hit and get sent to the minors in favor of the guy who doesn't hit who can't be sent down to the minors. There is nothing the minor league players can do but wait for injury for a cup of coffee.  

But, this discussion isn't about youth as much as it is about Kepler and Gallo. 

Kepler and Gallo are at the very bottom of the offensive problem that is hurting our Twins. Kepler and Gallo haven't produced decently in 3 years.

They won't be back next year. There are probably 6 or 7 players in St. Paul right now who can produce what they are producing and they probably would produce better. As bad as Miranda was... he was better than Kepler. Larnach certainly didn't light the world on fire but he was better than Kepler. Julien looks like a real good hitter but that won't keep in a Twins uniform because he has options.  

This is about Kepler and Gallo... They are hurting us... It's raffle drum time.  

 

I thought this article was about the question of if the Twins CAN get better at the deadline.  I think the question should be "Should The Twins Try To Get Better at the Deadline?"  I would prefer to see the Twins make available for real contenders:  Gallo, Kepler, Polanco, Gordon, Castro, Solano, Thielbar, J. Lopez.  If any contender makes a decent offer (AAA, or top level AA players), go for it, switch gears to a youth movement, and look forward to 2024.  I prefer watching teams that hustle, take extra bases, try to get hits, etc. rather than swing for the fences and then walk back to the dugout.  Boring.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, RpR said:

Well Kirilloff, whose is doing well and should remain, and Kepler have similar number of games but Kepler has 9 more rbi than Kirilloff.

So just how are Kepler and Gallo killing the team?

Gallo has same number of Ks as Buxton, and Kepler has 2 more Ks than Julien.

Kepler has 8 more RBI's than Kirilloff. If that is the stat you want to use it should be pointed out that Larnach has 10 more RBI's than Kepler does. 

Buxton has 47 More AB's than Gallo but I haven't been very excited with Buxton since last night. Kepler also has 7 more hits than Julien in 61 more AB's. Julien would have to hit .114 in those 61 AB's to drop to Kepler's level. 

There are people on this website who are beyond RBI's and K's. 

Kepler and Gallo have not been good. 

[Riverbrian]

2 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

I thought this article was about the question of if the Twins CAN get better at the deadline.  I think the question should be "Should The Twins Try To Get Better at the Deadline?"  I would prefer to see the Twins make available for real contenders:  Gallo, Kepler, Polanco, Gordon, Castro, Solano, Thielbar, J. Lopez.  If any contender makes a decent offer (AAA, or top level AA players), go for it, switch gears to a youth movement, and look forward to 2024.  I prefer watching teams that hustle, take extra bases, try to get hits, etc. rather than swing for the fences and then walk back to the dugout.  Boring.

It was the original topic but like most topics... they stretch in different directions. 

I make the moves you suggest if we are out of it.

If we don't get the offense going... we will be out of it.

If we get the offense going... we will be in it and if the offense is actually going... well than it looks different than it does now and  than we have an offense that is doing something... so we can add to it and hopefully make it stronger... so therefore add. 

The question in this article is premature in my mind. We got a month of July to see what happens. To give us a better chance...  We are best swapping out a couple of players and see if other players help our offense get better.  

 

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

I thought this article was about the question of if the Twins CAN get better at the deadline.  I think the question should be "Should The Twins Try To Get Better at the Deadline?"  I would prefer to see the Twins make available for real contenders:  Gallo, Kepler, Polanco, Gordon, Castro, Solano, Thielbar, J. Lopez.  If any contender makes a decent offer (AAA, or top level AA players), go for it, switch gears to a youth movement, and look forward to 2024.  I prefer watching teams that hustle, take extra bases, try to get hits, etc. rather than swing for the fences and then walk back to the dugout.  Boring.

There's a nice Jayson Stark article on The Athletic today talking about the Diamondbacks, Orioles, and Reds. He frames it around "New Rule Baseball," but all 3 teams are open about how their plan was in place well before the new rules. They were just trying to get more athletic. Those teams are fun to watch. And they're winning games right now. The lack of athleticism on the Twins is such a bummer. For that reason I'm not a fan of moving Castro (he's in the same age range as most of the guys we're hoping to become the new core). I think he's a wonderful utility player. Don't want him as an everyday starter, but his speed, and athleticism is a real weapon on the bench. As much as it kills me to say, it's probably time to move on from Polanco. And the rest of those guys I'm good moving, even though Solano is steady, and a refreshing change of pace in the batter's box.

[wabene]

42 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

ChatRpR v.2023.

Nerd 

[Mike Sixel]

50 minutes ago, RpR said:

Possibly just as you and some others are bot programmed to believe the rookies that so far have been meh are going to suddenly turn into super stars, could be.

No one said that. 

[chpettit19]

51 minutes ago, RpR said:

Possibly just as you and some others are bot programmed to believe the rookies that so far have been meh are going to suddenly turn into super stars, could be.

What's the difference between the rookies being "meh" and Kepler being "meh?" Most of our arguments are that Kepler can't go up from "meh." "Meh" is who he is. He's 30, and there's no reasonable expectation of improvement. The rookies being "meh" before they've had a chance to adapt, and truly gain their footing, have at least a little expectation of improvement. Why hold onto the guy who's proven that "meh" is his peak simply to avoid using a rookie who "meh" could reasonably be their floor?

[Major League Ready]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

The one thing here that might make me ok buying.... another forty man crush. But I really agree with the above, move on from Kepler and Gallo and see what you have. 

I don't see the 40 man as being any problem.  They have 7 expiring contracts and the only one among them I could see being resigned is Gray.  There are 3 others (Sand / Henriguez and perhaps DeLeon) that would not be much of a loss.  Martin and Enlow are the only two I can think of that need to be added but to be honest I have not looked yet.  There are 43 guys on the 40 man and IL so they are going to have 7 open spots.  I am sure there are a couple other beyond Martin and Enlow but it should not be a problem.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Kepler has 8 more RBI's than Kirilloff. If that is the stat you want to use it should be pointed out that Larnach has 10 more RBI's than Kepler does. 

Buxton has 47 More AB's than Gallo but I haven't been very excited with Buxton since last night. Kepler also has 7 more hits than Julien in 61 more AB's. Julien would have to hit .114 in those 61 AB's to drop to Kepler's level. 

There are people on this website who are beyond RBI's and K's. 

Kepler and Gallo have not been good. 

I used Kirilloff as they have a similar number of game played.

 

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

What's the difference between the rookies being "meh" and Kepler being "meh?" Most of our arguments are that Kepler can't go up from "meh." "Meh" is who he is. He's 30, and there's no reasonable expectation of improvement. The rookies being "meh" before they've had a chance to adapt, and truly gain their footing, have at least a little expectation of improvement. Why hold onto the guy who's proven that "meh" is his peak simply to avoid using a rookie who "meh" could reasonably be their floor?

AAA is for adapting not the Majors, unless you want the Twins to be a AAA  team in the wrong league.

Other teams have had rookies come up and show the majors is where they belong, no one, not a pitcher, has done that, with the possible exception of Arraez and he is no longer a rookie.

Perhaps some here think there is another Big Pappy just waiting to blossom, but if not, no great loss except games.

 

[chpettit19]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:51 PM, RpR said:

I used Kirilloff as they have a similar number of game played.

 

AAA is for adapting not the Majors, unless you want the Twins to be a AAA  team in the wrong league.

Other teams have had rookies come up and show the majors is where they belong, no one, not a pitcher, has done that, with the possible exception of Arraez and he is no longer a rookie.

Perhaps some here think there is another Big Pappy just waiting to blossom, but if not, no great loss except games.

 

I mean this is just flat out wrong. Mike Trout wasn't very good his rookie season. Then he adjusted. Turned out alright. There is adapting that has to happen at every level. That's not a hot take or anything. You can go ask anyone involved in baseball and they'll tell you that. This isn't even worth anymore conversation if your stance is that rookies are expected to perform immediately and no adapting is needed.

[HrbieFan]

Kepler says Hi to his haters again tonight! Can we trade managers at the deadline? This dude has zero baseball feel at all. Kenta pushed them off tonight and then struck out the guy. Pulling Kirilloff when you are up 5 is stupid, let him gets ABs against both sides now. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, HrbieFan said:

Kepler says Hi to his haters again tonight! Can we trade managers at the deadline? This dude has zero baseball feel at all. Kenta pushed them off tonight and then struck out the guy. Pulling Kirilloff when you are up 5 is stupid, let him gets ABs against both sides now. 

No one hates Kepler, seriously, this isn't personal. Rocco wasn't in the game at that point, btw ... He had been ejected 

[HoskenPowell]

Baseball fans knew Gallo was gonna be nothing but strikeouts and Hr's , but we also thought of his gold glove OF work.   Well we got the hr's and k's for sure. But we have not seen anything of a gold glove guy.    Kepler has been bad for 3 years running.   I've never thought Larnach was anything too hot personally , many will argue that.

 

 

Any of those 3 could be traded in my opinion.  But the return will be low on Kep/Gallo.  

Cruz for Ryan was fantastic.  But after that the brain trusts trades have been pretty pathetic.   Broken arms in Paddack and Mahle and losing Steer and others along with Taylor and Rook for the pathetic display Pagan has gave us.  Not sure I trust them in trades.

[Richard]

We know the Twins won't make too large of a splash at the deadline.  With that being said, the Twins know what they need to get better.  They'll let some overly eager teams set the trade market and move from there.  A rental guy like Grichuk could be an option to be packaged with an old vet like Daniel Bard or a good late inning guy in Justin Lawrence.  A Kepler-Miranda-PTBNL should get that deal done.  Yes I believe the Miranda experiment is over.  We have Royce/Farmer at third and Salano/Kirloff at first.

[DocBauer]

Despite some issues here and there...and getting Thielbar back for the 2nd half might help things settle a lot...the pen hasn't been a complete disaster. And it's way beyond arguement time about what they maybe should have done during the offseason. Duran, Jax, Stewart, a healthy Thielbar, a much better Moran than he was earlier in the year, and MAYBE even DeLeon are the framework of a solid pen. There remains a CHANCE that one of Lopez, Alcala, or Balazovic might step up before the deadline. But if the team doesn't suddenly tank, the pen is the ONE PLACE where they might grab a good rental arm for someone not projected to the 40 man next year. One more good, reliable arm...that might even be re-signed...could make a difference foe the pen foe the second half.

But echoing the rest of the tone of the OP, and the continuing discussion, where else could they realistically hope to improve? 

The offense is, and has been all season, the downfall of the 2023 Twins at this point.

Correa and Buxton aren't going anywhere for a variety of reasons, including the fact that they are damn good ballplayers. Correa is FAR AND AWAY not the player offensively we've seen so far this year. Is he really heating up as he's shown lately? Hopefully. And hopefully his plantar injury is not to blame or will continue to linger. Even after being dreadfully cold after coming back from being nailed in the ribs with a 96mph fastball, Buxton just flashed again what makes him so dangerous. 

Vasquez isn't going anywhere, especially being owed another $25+M over thr next 2 1/2 years and shouldn't be. He remains a fine backstop and he and Jeffers are forming a fine pair. Just have to hope Vazquez starts to hit more like his precious self, and Jeffers continues to show his improvement is real. I think it is.

YOUNGSTERS Julien, Kirilloff, and Lewis are all looking good and producing. Even Castro...not a building block or a guy I want to see playing daily...has made an impact with an OK bat, a little pop, and speed that is making a difference. 

Who is not part of the future, and not producing except occasionally here or there? Gallo and Kepler. And not a personal attack on EITHER of them as people, or professionals, to simply acknowledge what they AREN'T doing, and haven't been doing for a few years now. They AREN'T trending upward. 

Meanwhile, Larnach, even with some struggles, a demotion, and an illness injury, has still out produced Kepler. Wallner is destroying AAA for the 2nd year. BOTH offer actual upside. To state anything to the contrary that young players don't have a place until they prove themselves is simply ludicrous. How are they supposed to prove themselves without opportunity to do so vs older veterans who are approximate or barely performing at replacement level?

All time great Puckett produced right away when he came up 40yrs ago. But he wasn't the Puckett we all remember his 1st season. 

To take it a step further,  Twins all time great Torri Hunter was send down once, maybe twice, I can't quite  recall, before he settled in. Any sort of "prove it" logic would have never allowed Hunter to be the starting CF for the Twins unless he raked from DAY ONE. But we want to talk about prospects that didn't turn out in the '70's??? Well hell, why on earth did the Twins stick with Gaetti, Brunansky, or Viola in the 80's when they were average at best initially?

I'm sorry, but there is no logical reasoning behind A] Prospects have to prove themselves at AAA and then what? Never get opportunity? B] Holding on to $M veterans who aren't part of the future beyond this season and AREN'T getting the job done so they should remain instead of letting talented, younger, less expensive players with potential being allowed to maybe actually IMPROVE the offense going forward?

Gallo and Kepler should be gone, no personal attack on them. I'm not certain about moving Salono as he's actually doing what he's supposed to be doing and is actually contributing. But I doubt he's part of 2024, and a much younger, hopefully re-vitalized Miranda might take his spot.

Not even going to touch the Pagan discussion yet again.

NOBODY on the potential 2024 40 man should be moved. But I'd be OK with a lower level prospect being moved for a pen rental that might re-sign. Other than that, it's time to move on from underperforming vets that won't be back to see what you have, continue to build for 2024 and beyond, and try to help jump start the offense.

**NOTE: Gordon is out for an undetermined time, so I'm not even thinking of him right now. And basically, the same with Polanco, who might be an entire OP on his own.

[Major League Ready]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:43 PM, RpR said:

Possibly just as you and some others are bot programmed to believe the rookies that so far have been meh are going to suddenly turn into super stars, could be.

I think the discussion on this and many other players demonstrates that those supporting a transition to younger talent recognize that most prospects won’t become superstars.   However, we also recognize things that you are ignoring.

1. The relative certainty of Kepler / MAT or Gallo is even lower.  We know what they are and they are not the type of player that elevates a team.    
2. These players tenure here will be short.  Therefore, they offer nothing to sustained winning.
3. Prospects like Wallner at least have a shot at being difference makers.
4. Young players cost far less which provides payroll dollars to be used on filling holes as they did with Vasquez.

Recognizing these things leads to the understanding that nothing is more important to developing a winner than developing young talent.  The greater the revenue disparity the more essential it is to develop young talent.  We don’t think these prospects will all become superstars.  We just recognizing for the reasons above that hanging on to mediocre veterans when you have good young talent ready is a very good strategy if the goal is to remain mediocre.