Jose Berrios' Start

[Trov]

Okay, this is not a bash Berrios post.  I also am not saying he will be terrible again this year, but wanted to point out he gave up 8 runs in 5.2 innings against the same team Twins gave up 4 runs in 27 innings.  I know some wish Berrios was with Twins, or feel we got bad deal as Martin has regressed, and SWR has not done much yet at MLB level.  However, I do not think Berrios would slot in our top 5 starters based on his performances last year and his first start this year.  

Yes, just one start this year, but he had many bad starts last year too.  I expect he will be similar to what he did last year, having some good to great starts, but having many clunkers too. 

[FlyingFinn]

Looks like the Twins made the right decision in trading Berrios. If the Twins had Berrios, they wouldn't have traded for Pablo Lopez, and thus would have Arraez. Plus, Berrios contract would be anchor on us for years to come if this is how he is going to pitch. Both good moves IMO.

[CRF]

If I'm not mistaken, Berrios was pretty bad in ST this year. I read something earlier this spring about him working on a few things in ST...like his arm/launch angle again. He had messed around with that in prior years too. He sure got lit up yesterday. He was bad last season for the Jays too. He's got talent, but I'm glad he's not pitching for us anymore. I never thought he was much more than an average starter. 

[Squirrel]

I hope Berríos turns it around and think he will. But, he is not a top of the rotation starter any longer. I think the Twins made the right trade and the right time. Martin had a regressed year and now injured, but I still have hopes of him being a good player in the MLB. And I still think SWR will also make his way to MLB and be solid.

[gunnarthor]

I suspect we get these "Berrios sucks" threads as a way to make people think the FO was super smart or something in trading him away. It gets old. I guess I'll just say I would have rather that the FO had managed to field a competitive team in 2021 and 2022 than have Martin and SWR and move on. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We are going to do this after every Joey Gallo game, too.

Casual fans love the immediate gratification, but this is baseball, and I’m not sure why we have to continue to remind smart posters on here that there’s a ‘long game’ to consider. Yu Darvish, anyone?

That said, it does look like the trade did something to Berrios’s psyche. He was a good number two for us and would probably rate with Gray and Lopez at the top of the rotation if he was still with the Twins. (I think it should be 1-Wheeler, 2-Berrios, etc, but whatever). I think Berrios is a sensitive guy and was personally hurt being traded, he started tinkering with his delivery right away after the trade. You could see it. I think trading him was foolish, but maybe if he had been traded to a U.S. team he would be adjusting better. The guys we got back are not bad, but not worthy of the hype. Berrios is a strong bet to accrue more career WAR than Simeon Woods Richardson this point forward, and who knows what the future holds for Martin—maybe a Nick Gordon type of utility guy. I am very confident that it will click again for Berrios at some point. He has never been hurt. Maybe he needs a little time on the IL to clear his head more than anything. 

[a-wan]

He had the one of the worst OPS, average and slugging against in MLB, over a full year. He proclaimed he was healthy and his velocity was fine. From the looks of it, The Twins dumping Berrios, occured at the right time.

It most definitely isn't something I'm enjoying as I am a huge Berrios fan. But the fact the Twins aren't paying him is a huge win, no matter what the players they got do.

[Dave Borton]

2 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

That said, it does look like the trade did something to Berrios’s psyche. . .

I have long suspected this but haven't seen a written clue or heard a whisper on a podcast to corroborate my thinking. Regardless hope he gets it squared away. Likable young man.

[ashbury]

I got to sit within arm's reach of Jose on the back fields at Ft Myers one spring training a while back, so I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for him.  (Part of the fun of going.)  Hope he finds the missing ingredient and gets back to being himself.  Way too early in the season to draw any conclusions.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

57 minutes ago, davidborton said:

I have long suspected this but haven't seen a written clue or heard a whisper on a podcast to corroborate my thinking. Regardless hope he gets it squared away. Likable young man.

He was pretty broken up about it. Right after the trade, he was interviewed in the Blue Jays dugout during a game, and he couldn’t stop talking about the Twins and the people back here and trying to make sense of the trade. It was not that long of an interview, but it was a little awkward. It was the exact opposite of the usual “love my new teammates! glad to be in a pennant race!” speech; but it was more from the heart, which Berríos has in abundance. 

[Squirrel]

9 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

He was pretty broken up about it. Right after the trade, he was interviewed in the Blue Jays dugout during a game, and he couldn’t stop talking about the Twins and the people back here and trying to make sense of the trade. It was not that long of an interview, but it was a little awkward. It was the exact opposite of the usual “love my new teammates! glad to be in a pennant race!” speech; but it was more from the heart, which Berríos has in abundance. 

If our trading him screwed him up so badly that it’s the reason for his current woes, he’s in the wrong business. He knew that the Twins would either extend him or trade him because that’s how it works, so trading him should have been no surprise, especially not in this case as that possibility had been talked about for a while. And given the awfulness of the Twins’ season that year, I think it was the right decision. It’s not bashing him to say so, nor is it a casual fan pov. It wasn’t any surprise to us at TD whether we wanted that to happen or not. But given Berríos’ make up, how he trains, his focus and his will, and love for the game, I don’t think what you’re suggesting is the case, at all. He simply is not weak-minded and wants to win and the Twins gave him a huge chance to do just that. Yes, it’s difficult to accept a new job, a new role, with a new team in a new city. The interviews I read he talked about how excited he was to be given a chance to win and how much he and his family liked his new city. Change is hard. But to say that this affected Berríos this much, well, for me that seems to fly in the face of the Berríos I knew and saw pitch for the Twins. With the complaints here that people are bashing him, what you are suggesting isn’t too flattering to him, either, imo. I think you are projecting a bit. It is possible that the Twins FO knew something we all didn’t and simply made the right trade at the right time. It isn’t bashing anyone to suggest that. It’s not a false front to hope he turns it around, but also suggest that maybe his time as a front end starter is waning. It’s the reality of this game.

[jmlease1]

12 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

We are going to do this after every Joey Gallo game, too.

Casual fans love the immediate gratification, but this is baseball, and I’m not sure why we have to continue to remind smart posters on here that there’s a ‘long game’ to consider. Yu Darvish, anyone?

That said, it does look like the trade did something to Berrios’s psyche. He was a good number two for us and would probably rate with Gray and Lopez at the top of the rotation if he was still with the Twins. (I think it should be 1-Wheeler, 2-Berrios, etc, but whatever). I think Berrios is a sensitive guy and was personally hurt being traded, he started tinkering with his delivery right away after the trade. You could see it. I think trading him was foolish, but maybe if he had been traded to a U.S. team he would be adjusting better. The guys we got back are not bad, but not worthy of the hype. Berrios is a strong bet to accrue more career WAR than Simeon Woods Richardson this point forward, and who knows what the future holds for Martin—maybe a Nick Gordon type of utility guy. I am very confident that it will click again for Berrios at some point. He has never been hurt. Maybe he needs a little time on the IL to clear his head more than anything. 

I dunno, Berrios was great for the Blue Jays right after the deal. he didn't miss a beat at all when he moved over.

Last year he was pretty bad. he's not off to a good start this year, but it's one start. I think he's a very talented pitcher who should be able to bounce back, but this is the risk with long-term contracts for pitchers. Toronto is on the hook for him for 5 more years after this one. 

[weitz41]

To me it is and was our version of the Mahle trade. We got two probable contributors in the next season or two. For a guy we likely weren't going to resign. Maybe one or both take the next step or two to be great players, maybe not. 

As for Berrios, I figured going from the Al central to the AL east would hurt his overall numbers, but not like this. He earned that contract in my mind and shouldn't get pilled on over it. I'm rooting for him to have a great season and the last game can soon be forgotten.

[MABB1959]

I was so sad to see how yesterday's game went.  I still think he will be above average.  One thing that stuck out last year was the number of innings he gave to help the Toronto BP and we sure could have used that.

I still don't know what the Twins return will turn out to be.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Athletes are human, too. Some of them anyway. Zack Greinke almost quit baseball over his mental health. Go find that clip and try to tell me Berríos wasn’t a little shook up being traded away from an organization he wanted to spend the rest of his career with. 

@jmlease1 When I read that Berríos is still tinkering with his delivery, I shake my head, because his delivery was pretty much the same the whole time he was in Minnesota and did not change until he got to Toronto. 

The Twins had the nucleus to win a World Series. Buxton and Sano, Berrios, Rosario, Polanco, Kepler, throw in Taylor Rogers, include Kyle Gibson and Brian Dozier on the older side, and maybe Graterol and Arraez on the younger side. All those guys were born and grew up in the Twins organization. The nucleus just needed some extra outside help, like Erv Santana, Ryan Pressly, Nelson Cruz, Odorizzi, they were good, but it wasn’t enough and now we’re in a rebuild again. That’s what people should be concerned about.

Outside of being a baseball fan, I don’t really think about this stuff and I wish all these players well. 

[ashbury]

How come the effect of that mean ol' trade didn't show up during the second half of 2021 when Berrios was good?

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Athletes are human, too. Some of them anyway. Zack Greinke almost quit baseball over his mental health. Go find that clip and try to tell me Berríos wasn’t a little shook up being traded away from an organization he wanted to spend the rest of his career with. 

@jmlease1 When I read that Berríos is still tinkering with his delivery, I shake my head, because his delivery was pretty much the same the whole time he was in Minnesota and did not change until he got to Toronto. 

The Twins had the nucleus to win a World Series. Buxton and Sano, Berrios, Rosario, Polanco, Kepler, throw in Taylor Rogers, include Kyle Gibson and Brian Dozier on the older side, and maybe Graterol and Arraez on the younger side. All those guys were born and grew up in the Twins organization. The nucleus just needed some extra outside help, like Erv Santana, Ryan Pressly, Nelson Cruz, Odorizzi, they were good, but it wasn’t enough and now we’re in a rebuild again. That’s what people should be concerned about.

Outside of being a baseball fan, I don’t really think about this stuff and I wish all these players well. 

In 2021 Berrios made 12 starts with Toronto. Went 5-4 with a 3.58 ERA. 78 Ks in 70.1 innings. Only 13 walks. The theory that the trade shook him up and caused him to fall apart carries no water at all. If the trade was the problem he wouldn't have been his same old self the rest of that season and then fallen apart over the offseason and into the next year and until the beginning of this year. That's not how humans work.

That nucleus didn't win a single playoff game, but they were good enough to win the World Series? I'm really struggling there. That nucleus was absolutely not good enough to win a World Series. Not even close. Unless we're just talking in a vacuum talent-wise, and ignoring injuries, etc. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

12 minutes ago, ashbury said:

How come the effect of that mean ol' trade didn't show up during the second half of 2021 when Berrios was good?

The post right above yours says that Berrios since arriving in Toronto has been constantly tinkering with his mechanics, something he did not do with the Twins. This indicates he was getting some results while still not feeling comfortable. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

12 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

That nucleus didn't win a single playoff game, but they were good enough to win the World Series? I'm really struggling there.

Absolutely they were. Except that we have people running this organization now who make too many costly mistakes, like thinking Randy Dobnak was a playoff-caliber starting pitcher. 

Nothing personal against Dobnak. 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Absolutely they were. Except that we have people running this organization now who make too many costly mistakes, like thinking Randy Dobnak was a playoff-caliber starting pitcher. 

Nothing personal against Dobnak. 

Why didn't they win the game before that Dobnak start? You know, the one Berrios started...

[ashbury]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:57 AM, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

The post right above yours says that Berrios since arriving in Toronto has been constantly tinkering with his mechanics, something he did not do with the Twins. This indicates he was getting some results while still not feeling comfortable. 

Pitchers constantly tinker, and I don't take at face value that there was some night-and-day change in the level he did that.  And again, if the tinkering occurred as soon as Toronto got him, then I'm hard pressed to think it caused good effects in 2021 and suddenly is the explanation for 2022 and his spring this year.  Something's gone haywire and I don't think it's that he's become a head case.

[ashbury]

When did MLB start cracking down on pitchers using stickum on their fingers, for instance?

[Squirrel]

49 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Athletes are human, too. Some of them anyway. Zack Greinke almost quit baseball over his mental health. Go find that clip and try to tell me Berríos wasn’t a little shook up being traded away from an organization he wanted to spend the rest of his career with. 

Of course they are and of course they have feelings about being traded. Change is hard. But this is also the business. To suggest that being traded is still affecting him, now, after one and a half season later, I don’t think is the case. Something is wrong, but that has nothing to do with trading him mid-season in 2021. Or, if nothing is wrong, maybe he’s just reached his limit. I feel for him because of how much he puts into it, and hope he figures it out and adjusts. But, there is also the possibility that he is just not the pitcher he was because that’s just what happens with athletes after a time. I still think it was the right trade to make at the time, on that we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Mike Sixel]

I wish he'd succeed, seems like a good person.

But, trading him was the right idea, given how the season went...I think fans will be very happy with SWR, and if Martin is ever healthy, him too.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

I wish he'd succeed, seems like a good person.

But, trading him was the right idea, given how the season went...I think fans will be very happy with SWR, and if Martin is ever healthy, him too.

Fair take, Mike. Thanks. 

[Squirrel]

Berrios had a very nice game tonight against the Rays. I hope he’s finding his groove again.

[h2oface]

And Jose integral in stopping the Tampa record opening season streak at 13, and denies them from holding it outright. Goes 5 innings, 6Ks, one earned. (pulled after 77 pitches)

[Shaitan]

It's almost like long-term contracts to pitchers are rarely a good idea.

[Squirrel]

10 hours ago, h2oface said:

And Jose integral in stopping the Tampa record opening season streak at 13, and denies them from holding it outright. Goes 5 innings, 6Ks, one earned. (pulled after 77 pitches)

He had two balls hit/deflect off him in that last inning. The first off his foot, which he shook off; the 2nd off his knee on the final out of that inning. He managed to still make the play but looked like he was limping slightly walking off the field. Could have had something to do with being pulled after 5 and only 77 pitches after a very good outing.