Behind the Plate

[Doctor Wu]

Lots of talk about the starting rotation and the bullpen, not to mention second base, first base, and even the outfielders. Sigh. Another Twins season is set to begin. 

But what about behind the plate? The Twins signed Christian Vasquez, and that seemed to be accepted as a good pickup for the team. Plus, Jeffers is coming back from his injury last year, so that seems to solidify the catching position. But how are the Twins REALLY looking behind the  plate?  I know it's only spring training, but Vasquez seems to have underwhelmed thus far. What are your thoughts? Are you comfortable with the Twins duo of backstops entering into this season?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, Doctor Wu said:

Lots of talk about the starting rotation and the bullpen, not to mention second base, first base, and even the outfielders. Sigh. Another Twins season is set to begin. 

But what about behind the plate? The Twins signed Christian Vasquez, and that seemed to be accepted as a good pickup for the team. Plus, Jeffers is coming back from his injury last year, so that seems to solidify the catching position. But how are the Twins REALLY looking behind the  plate?  I know it's only spring training, but Vasquez seems to have underwhelmed thus far. What are your thoughts? Are you comfortable with the Twins duo of backstops entering into this season?

catchers who are great hitters and great fielders are exceedingly rare. You almost always get a catcher (with no stick) or a DH wearing tons of pads.

I feel much better about C this year than last year. Everyone has a hole at C (or a DH behind the dish). Vázquez (84 career/99 last year ranked #18 at 200 plate appearances) has historically been just below league average hitter by wRC+, Jeffers (89/87/#29) just below league average as well. Both are good fielding catchers Jeffers #19 in baseball savant framing outs, Vázquez #23, catcher blocking Vázquez was number 15, Jeffers not so good 51.

if your expecting Prime Joe Mauer and Pudge Rodriguez, you’ll be sorely disappointed, but then there’s only been a handful of catchers to ever play like those two did and you’ll be disappointed for a loooong time.

 

[JD-TWINS]

Do not see Catching as any sort of problem this year if the guys starting the season on roster stay healthy. We have a problem if Vazquez goes down and Jeffers catches 80% of our games. Pretty much the situation of every team in baseball other than the Braves.

Vazquez has a .274 career BA - not concerned about other metrics if can play defense similarly to his past years in the Show.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Do not see Catching as any sort of problem this year if the guys starting the season on roster stay healthy. We have a problem if Vazquez goes down and Jeffers catches 80% of our games. Pretty much the situation of every team in baseball other than the Braves.

Vazquez has a .274 career BA - not concerned about other metrics if can play defense similarly to his past years in the Show.

The Twins play a 60/40 or 50/50 catcher. I see no reason why they stop that. Including if Jeffers or Vázquez goes down. My concern at that point is Dave Banuelos getting 40% of the at bats.

[JD-TWINS]

1 minute ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

The Twins play a 60/40 or 50/50 catcher. I see no reason why they stop that. Including if Jeffers or Vázquez goes down. My concern at that point is Dave Banuelos getting 40% of the at bats.

I get the historical perspective. Jeffers won’t get anywhere near 50% of the starts while we’re paying Vazquez $10M/yr……..,agreed,  80% in my comment above is a little heavy but if Vazquez does go down they’ll have to lean on Jeffers a bunch which, as stated, makes me nervous…..as well as Dave B. at any %.

On same page!

[Doctor Gast]

18 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

catchers who are great hitters and great fielders are exceedingly rare. You almost always get a catcher (with no stick) or a DH wearing tons of pads.

I feel much better about C this year than last year. Everyone has a hole at C (or a DH behind the dish). Vázquez (84 career/99 last year ranked #18 at 200 plate appearances) has historically been just below league average hitter by wRC+, Jeffers (89/87/#29) just below league average as well. Both are good fielding catchers Jeffers #19 in baseball savant framing outs, Vázquez #23, catcher blocking Vázquez was number 15, Jeffers not so good 51.

if your expecting Prime Joe Mauer and Pudge Rodriguez, you’ll be sorely disappointed, but then there’s only been a handful of catchers to ever play like those two did and you’ll be disappointed for a loooong time.

Thanks Ritchie for those stats. Vazquez is a great pick, his hitting isn't that great but behind the plate is probably the best that was available. And he's durable which is good for a catcher.

Jeffers is another story. His hitting has been disappointing, blocking not so good, his worse quality is  his arm which is pretty bad (arm you have it or you don't). His best quality is framing, it is good but not the best. Framing is not a talent, it's a technique; a technique that IMO isn't that hard to pick up. Talk has been is to play Jeffers against LHPs but I think the focus should be to play Jeffers against teams that do not run, to give Vazquez a break.

I've never seen Jeffers as our future starter, actually I hate to depend on him for any length of time. So if Vazquez gets hurt in these 3 years and after he leaves, catching will become a liability.

I agree that there aren't that many elite catchers. But when the Twins were sleeping on catching there has been an excellent crop of catchers that are just emerging and will continue to emerge the next couple of years. A few of them will be elite and a few teams have more than one.  Since last year we should have targeted one, the ones that have debut or about to debut will be expensive now. There are still some that are reasonable but soon they'll be expensive.

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

Thanks Ritchie for those stats. Vazquez is a great pick, his hitting isn't that great but behind the plate is probably the best that was available. And he's durable which is good for a catcher.

Jeffers is another story. His hitting has been disappointing, blocking not so good, his worse quality is  his arm which is pretty bad (arm you have it or you don't). His best quality is framing, it is good but not the best. Framing is not a talent, it's a technique; a technique that IMO isn't that hard to pick up. Talk has been is to play Jeffers against LHPs but I think the focus should be to play Jeffers against teams that do not run, to give Vazquez a break.

I've never seen Jeffers as our future starter, actually I hate to depend on him for any length of time. So if Vazquez gets hurt in these 3 years and after he leaves, catching will become a liability.

I agree that there aren't that many elite catchers. But when the Twins were sleeping on catching there has been an excellent crop of catchers that are just emerging and will continue to emerge the next couple of years. A few of them will be elite and a few teams have more than one.  Since last year we should have targeted one, the ones that have debut or about to debut will be expensive now. There are still some that are reasonable but soon they'll be expensive.

 

Perspective in data is a wonderful thing. I see the difference between Vázquez and Jeffers, 5-7 pts wRC+ and both in the second quartile as relatively similar hitters inside the margin of error.

why do you see Jeffers as a disappointing hitter?

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Perspective in data is a wonderful thing. I see the difference between Vázquez and Jeffers, 5-7 pts wRC+ and both in the second quartile as relatively similar hitters inside the margin of error.

why do you see Jeffers as a disappointing hitter?

Last season he was disappointing, to be fair in ST he has been swinging a pretty good bat. The HR against LHP Sales today looked pretty good.

[mnfireman]

New team = new pitchers = learning pitchers trends. Vazquez's #1 job this spring was to learn everything he could about his new pitching staff. The offense will, hopefully, come around.

[Rosterman]

Jeffers holding runners will be the key. Vasquez should offer improved defense.

Always say someone has to make the 27 outs in a lineup. A couple of positions you NEED the best you can get in defense.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

8 hours ago, Doctor Wu said:

What are your thoughts?

It’s an upgrade over 2022 but I think the Twins are still middle of the pack. 

This list should give you a general idea of what else is out there. 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10055213-ranking-the-top-25-catchers-of-the-2022-mlb-season.amp.html

[Mike Sixel]

Not worried at all.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-positional-power-rankings-catcher/

 

[stringer bell]

46 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

New team = new pitchers = learning pitchers trends. Vazquez's #1 job this spring was to learn everything he could about his new pitching staff. The offense will, hopefully, come around.

He hit pretty well in WBC IIRC. I expect middling offense from Vazquez and a bit better than that from Jeffers. Jeffers has been swinging well this spring. I hope he improves his throwing and pitch-blocking. 

[stringer bell]

49 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Not worried at all.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-positional-power-rankings-catcher/

 

Fangraphs likes the Twins in general. This is a pretty optimistic view of the catcher position.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, stringer bell said:

Fangraphs likes the Twins in general. This is a pretty optimistic view of the catcher position.

I think it's pretty average. Nothing great, nothing awful. 

[a-wan]

What about the rings Vasquez has won, he’s a two time World Series champ! You can’t buy that experience. Well, I guess you can since the Twins did, but think of the seasoning and experience Vasquez brings.

[Squirrel]

8 minutes ago, a-wan said:

What about the rings Vasquez has won, he’s a two time World Series champ! You can’t buy that experience. Well, I guess you can since the Twins did, but think of the seasoning and experience Vasquez brings.

This. I have no issues with who we behind the plate. It’s the one area the Twins addressed early and did well. Sigh!

[wabene]

18 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Talk has been is to play Jeffers against LHPs but I think the focus should be to play Jeffers against teams that do not run, to give Vazquez a break

This is a good point👍

[terrydactyls]

To quote the great baseball mind William Shakespeare, this is "Much Ado About Nothing".

[raindog]

Vázquez has looked rough this Spring but he's a very slow starter. He has just a .623 OPS in all his Spring Training games combined. And his April/March OPS is .638, lower than all other months. So nothing to be too concerned about. 

I'm excited to see what Jeffers does with his swing adjustments this year. 

[Doctor Wu]

On 3/27/2023 at 4:59 AM, stringer bell said:

Fangraphs likes the Twins in general. This is a pretty optimistic view of the catcher position.

I'm still pretty optimistic too, but if Vasquez is batting under .200 in June then I'll be more concerned. I'm a big believer in defense too, but it will help if he can better the Mendoza line. Then again, Jeffers could end up getting more starts if Vasquez stumbles. Just have to hope that neither one has a serious injury. Not many options in the minors right now. 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Doctor Wu said:

I'm still pretty optimistic too, but if Vasquez is batting under .200 in June then I'll be more concerned. I'm a big believer in defense too, but it will help if he can better the Mendoza line. Then again, Jeffers could end up getting more starts if Vasquez stumbles. Just have to hope that neither one has a serious injury. Not many options in the minors right now. 

I honestly don’t care as much about his bat as his defense. With the bigger bases, I think we see more stealing so Vasquez behind the plate will be important. He also has a reputation for working really well with pitchers. We were so spoiled with the years of Mauer behind the plate, good offense and defense, but for a catcher, I believe in defense first, and if we get a little offense, that’s icing on the cake.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm not expecting much from Vazquez anyway. He's a pretty bad hitter, he's just an okay hitter for a catcher.

Any real hope for upside likely lays in the bat of Jeffers.

[Brady]

5 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I honestly don’t care as much about his bat as his defense. With the bigger bases, I think we see more stealing so Vasquez behind the plate will be important. He also has a reputation for working really well with pitchers. We were so spoiled with the years of Mauer behind the plate, good offense and defense, but for a catcher, I believe in defense first, and if we get a little offense, that’s icing on the cake.

For me, C, SS, and CF are the only positions where it really makes sense to put defensive capability anywhere close to offensive production in terms of assessing overall value. Vazquez fits this profile well (coincidentally, so does Michael A. Taylor) so I am glad that we can get his defense behind the plate. The Twins' success on offense will not hinge on over/underperformance from C, so as long as Vazquez and Jeffers stay healthy, play good defense, and put up respectable numbers at the plate, I'll be happy.

[jkcarew]

I think we might be challenged enough offensively this year that we will ‘need’ SOME production out of the catcher position. I’m cautiously optimistic on Jeffers. Can’t even put my finger on it. Last year the BB% was up and the K% was down despite the bad results with BABiP and SLG. This spring has been mildly encouraging for him. Age 25/26 with about 600 big league PA…if things were to start clicking, now might be the time.

Anyway, we need to not be awful offensively here. And I don’t think we will be.