Chris Archer: Update

[Doctor Gast]

Many look at Archer's stats while at PIT or maybe they got burned by him on Fantasy Baseball thus saying he's no good. Sometimes we need to look beyond the stats.  There hasn't been any doubt in my mind that Chris Archer's problem was PIT coaching staff. Archer had good action on his fastball & slider w/ a circle change up. He`s also a workhorse putting up a lot of innings for both TB & PIT. My only doubt was                 how he would come back from             his surgery. 

Looking at his twitter post he looks pretty darn good at this stage of his recovery.

 

 

FO office could sign him to a low contract w/ a lot of                 incentives. Wes could work w/ him to get his fastball & slider back & Johann Santana could perfect his circle change up. Also there was talk about him telegraphing his pitches, this also could be worked on. He`s low risk/ high reward, FO sign him up

 

 

 

 

 

[Doctor Gast]

Unfortunately             his twitter   site didn't show up on my posting, you can check it out on his twitter site if you like

 

 

 

 

 

[ashbury]

That little crow-hop in the video has to be balk.

[terrydactyls]

What happens when he puts a baseball in his empty hand?

[Doctor Gast]

 

That little crow-hop in the video has to be balk.

I'm sure it is. It has to be part of rehab that he'll have to lose once he progresses. Crow hop is a good term for that little movement

[ashbury]

Crow hop is a good term for that little movement

Crow hop

 

[Doctor Gast]

 

Crow hop
 

Learn something new every day!

[Trov]

Would I be willing to sing him to minor league deal in hopes he can come back, yes.  But no major league deal.  It has nothing to do with his numbers in Pittsburg, it has to with the surgery.  Although I have read that many players "return" many big names in recent years have never come close to what they did before.  

 

Phil Huges and Matt Harvey come to mind.  Both had Cy Young level seasons prior to issues and neither had any level of success after.  Of course I would not say because they failed Archer will too.  That is why I would only go minor league deal.  Maybe if he requires a major league deal I would go min with lots of incentives.  Unlike Pineda who Twins gave 2 year deal coming of Tommy John surgery.  That surgery has shown many players come back after it.  

 

I would agree, one big part of Archer failing did have to do with less slider use.  Archer used slider a ton in Tampa, then cut down a ton with Pittsburg.  Twins are big on the slider.  I bet if Archer does not get a major league deal the Twins will try to swoop in on a flyer deal.  

[prouster]

Would I be willing to sing him to minor league deal in hopes he can come back, yes. But no major league deal. It has nothing to do with his numbers in Pittsburg, it has to with the surgery. Although I have read that many players "return" many big names in recent years have never come close to what they did before.

 

Phil Huges and Matt Harvey come to mind. Both had Cy Young level seasons prior to issues and neither had any level of success after. Of course I would not say because they failed Archer will too. That is why I would only go minor league deal. Maybe if he requires a major league deal I would go min with lots of incentives. Unlike Pineda who Twins gave 2 year deal coming of Tommy John surgery. That surgery has shown many players come back after it.

 

I would agree, one big part of Archer failing did have to do with less slider use. Archer used slider a ton in Tampa, then cut down a ton with Pittsburg. Twins are big on the slider. I bet if Archer does not get a major league deal the Twins will try to swoop in on a flyer deal.

The common denominator between Hughes and Harvey is thoracic outlet syndrome. Very few if any pitchers have come back from that. If Archer’s problems are mechanical or related to pitch selection, then there’s some hope that he can be brought back to life. I agree he’s worth a spring training invite.

[Doctor Gast]

 

Would I be willing to sing him to minor league deal in hopes he can come back, yes.  But no major league deal.  It has nothing to do with his numbers in Pittsburg, it has to with the surgery.  Although I have read that many players "return" many big names in recent years have never come close to what they did before.  

 

Phil Huges and Matt Harvey come to mind.  Both had Cy Young level seasons prior to issues and neither had any level of success after.  Of course I would not say because they failed Archer will too.  That is why I would only go minor league deal.  Maybe if he requires a major league deal I would go min with lots of incentives.  Unlike Pineda who Twins gave 2 year deal coming of Tommy John surgery.  That surgery has shown many players come back after it.  

 

I would agree, one big part of Archer failing did have to do with less slider use.  Archer used slider a ton in Tampa, then cut down a ton with Pittsburg.  Twins are big on the slider.  I bet if Archer does not get a major league deal the Twins will try to swoop in on a flyer deal.  

The surgery rehab really troubles me too. Like you said quite a few don't come back but some do. Maybe now they have better technique to use. He probably will need lot more time & many teams won't commit until he shows more definite progress so he probably won't sign until well into the off season

[jud6312]

I think the question with Archer is whether any team with budget constraints for '21 (as it seems the Twins might have) can afford to risk a guaranteed contract to someone coming off TOS. 

 

There's basically no track record of successful returns from it yet that I could find. I'm sure eventually someone will come back from it and be what they were before, but if it took more than a minor league contract and spring training invite, I'm not sure the Twins could afford to be the team to take the chance this year.

[Trov]

 

The common denominator between Hughes and Harvey is thoracic outlet syndrome. Very few if any pitchers have come back from that. If Archer’s problems are mechanical or related to pitch selection, then there’s some hope that he can be brought back to life. I agree he’s worth a spring training invite.

Thoracic outlet syndrome is what Archer got surgery for as well.  That is why I am worried.  The pitch selection may have been an issue too, but I am hesitant to go after anyone right now with thoracic outlet syndrome, until some prove they fully recover or anywhere close to recover.  It could be that many of the pitchers also get it later in career and so return is less due to that issue, but more due to age as well.  That is why I would be willing to take very low risk waiver on him, but would not count on him at all.   

[mnfireman]

Let's just go with NO going forward. Archer has never put up numbers that have matched the hype, SABRmetrics, peripherals, potential, etc... that everybody thinks he should. Call me old school, out-dated or whatever, performance matters to me and he has not performed. Do not go after him. Period.

[prouster]

Thoracic outlet syndrome is what Archer got surgery for as well. That is why I am worried. The pitch selection may have been an issue too, but I am hesitant to go after anyone right now with thoracic outlet syndrome, until some prove they fully recover or anywhere close to recover. It could be that many of the pitchers also get it later in career and so return is less due to that issue, but more due to age as well. That is why I would be willing to take very low risk waiver on him, but would not count on him at all.

You’re right. For some reason I was thinking Tommy John. I agree, a spring training invite would be worth it, but nothing more than that.

[Doctor Gast]

 

Let's just go with NO going forward. Archer has never put up numbers that have matched the hype, SABRmetrics, peripherals, potential, etc... that everybody thinks he should. Call me old school, out-dated or whatever, performance matters to me and he has not performed. Do not go after him. Period.

If you tie   a teenager's right arm behind their back & put him in the middle of Lake Minnetonka & tell him to swim to shore. He swam to shore but he didn't make the swimming team because he didn't meet the normal time of a normal swim. You have to take into consideration underlining conditions or you`ll miss out on many opportunities. The teams that really know Archer are the most interested in him (TB, PIT, Cubs) maybe they know something we don't. You said that he hasn't lived up to his hype. Hype is based on potential & no one lives up to their hype until they fully develop their potential. Berrios hasn't lived up to his hype, should we get rid of him? No, because 1 day he will. If TB didn't asked too much for Archer & the Twins were able to land him instead of PIT. Wes Johnson could've developed him into a pitcher that lived up to his hype. If you look only at specific performance w/o taking into consideration underlining conditions you'll be very disappointed. 

Should the Twins sign him? It depends if he can recuperate from this surgery. Should the Twins   keep an eye on him?       It'd be foolish not to  

[AZTwin]

This boards obsession with loving Archer (and hating on Rosario) is bizarre. Archer was never that great of a player and this board has always wanted to give up the farm for him.

[old nurse]

 

This boards obsession with loving Archer (and hating on Rosario) is bizarre. Archer was never that great of a player and this board has always wanted to give up the farm for him.

A dozen people does not make a board

[twinfan]

I've always liked Archer's arm but his major league career has never panned out. I'd give him 5 mil for a 2 year contract if he is healthy. Right now that is the big question.

[Doctor Gast]

 

This boards obsession with loving Archer (and hating on Rosario) is bizarre. Archer was never that great of a player and this board has always wanted to give up the farm for him.

#1 I'm a Rosario fan. No one on this thread slammed on him. I would not judge anyone w/ little to no reason.

#2 The main focus on this thread is keep an open mind on Archer. If you think pitching coaching has no bearing on pitchers           or         PIT ex-pitching coach is the greatest, maybe you should contact FO  & convince them to fire Wes Johnson &  hire PIT ex-pitching coach, I'm sure he'd be cheap (just kidding)

#3 Archer has good stuff that can be improved. The only concern is if he can come back from his injury. So far it has been smooth & the teams that know him the best are the most interested. San Diego bet heavily on Snell so TB will be interested in some pitchers to eat innings. TB knows Archer the best, they know how to scout & develop pitchers so there is probably where Archer will end up

[The Wise One]

 

#1 I'm a Rosario fan. No one on this thread slammed on him. I would not judge anyone w/ little to no reason.

#2 The main focus on this thread is keep an open mind on Archer. If you think pitching coaching has no bearing on pitchers           or         PIT ex-pitching coach is the greatest, maybe you should contact FO  & convince them to fire Wes Johnson &  hire PIT ex-pitching coach, I'm sure he'd be cheap (just kidding)

#3 Archer has good stuff that can be improved. The only concern is if he can come back from his injury. So far it has been smooth & the teams that know him the best are the most interested. San Diego bet heavily on Snell so TB will be interested in some pitchers to eat innings. TB knows Archer the best, they know how to scout & develop pitchers so there is probably where Archer will end up

Tampa knew Archer best and sold high. Keeping an open mind is to see what he has done the last few years. There is no logical reason for Tampa to bring back Archer unless it is a minor league deal. That is an open mind, not wishful thinking

[Doctor Gast]

Being traded high doesn't make Archer bad any more it makes Snell bad. I'm glad that the FO didn't bite on either.

I was wondering after reading FA ratings & reports, they never mention his surgery. Being skeptical of the surgery myself, (especially after Phil Hugh's past)  I decided to dig deeper. I read recent articles & discovered that the procedure now most pitchers can make a full recovery in a few weeks.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lucasseehafer/2020/06/03/understanding-chris-archers-surgery-to-treat-thoracic-outlet-syndrome/?sh=7d55c3775293

 

I became very optimistic & more enthusiastic for the FO to sign him. Archer is a very good pitcher w/ a strong arm & a lot of potential, ask any Twin who has faced him.

Wes can work w/ on his fastball, slider & pitch selection & J Santana can perfect his circle change up. He's low risk/ high reward opportunity. I can see him do very well here

[nicksaviking]

I would have been on board for Archer prior to his surgery; I too thought there was still plenty there to work with.

 

But at this point I'd only take him on a minor league deal after he's DFA'd. Maybe I'm wrong, but so far there are zero successful TOS surgery rehabs, right?

[AceWrigley]

I think the vascular TOS is a harder recovery than the neurological TOS that Archer had and post-surgery performance is affected less. The surgical procedures and rehabs that some athletes endure are truly amazing. Signing Archer to a low $ front-end performance-based contract could provide value if the Twins feel he could pitch as a starter. But if the fastball doesn't zip and the sinker don't sink, maybe not.

[Doctor Gast]

 

Being traded high doesn't make Archer bad any more it makes Snell bad. I'm glad that the FO didn't bite on either.

I was wondering after reading FA ratings & reports, they never mention his surgery. Being skeptical of the surgery myself, (especially after Phil Hugh's past)  I decided to dig deeper. I read recent articles & discovered that the procedure now most pitchers can make a full recovery in a few weeks.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lucasseehafer/2020/06/03/understanding-chris-archers-surgery-to-treat-thoracic-outlet-syndrome/?sh=7d55c3775293

 

I became very optimistic & more enthusiastic for the FO to sign him. Archer is a very good pitcher w/ a strong arm & a lot of potential, ask any Twin who has faced him.

Wes can work w/ on his fastball, slider & pitch selection & J Santana can perfect his circle change up. He's low risk/ high reward opportunity. I can see him do very well here

I'm usually pretty busy so many times when I post things I rush & leave it incomplete, hoping to come back & edit it. In this case I couldn't. 

What I really want to say is that I've always seen Archer as  a          raw talent pitcher that could become the next Johan Santana. I'd like if FO would approach him let him know that they are interested & all that they have to offer him & keep TB from low balling him. Offer him a contract simular to Robles.

Archer has matured a lot from his TB days & hope he can come back fully & develop to his full potential hopefully w/ the Twins. I believe Archer could be on the IL until he's 100% or when needed, having some flexibity on the 40 man

[Dodecahedron]

I have not looked closely at Archer lately, but whenever I took a deep dive look at his numbers in the past, I always came out with the impression that he's not particularly great. His high K totals skew contemporary metrics too far to the positive given his actuals.

 

The Rays got good production out of him because that's what the Rays do.

 

And let's face it, the only reason Twins fans spend so much time looking at Archer is because he's closer to the middle -- and is thus a reasonable target for the frugal Twins.

 

Archer could be an good player to nab to fill out the middle-to-back of the rotation, but so could a lot of other players. I'm not sure if a team wanting a deep playoff run spends a whole lot of effort targeting Archer.

[Doctor Gast]

Chris Archer has an elite 4 seamer & slider plus an above average change up. Like I said before J Santana can perfect his circle change up. He gets a lot of SOs so what's his problem? It has been said that he tip off his pitches. How is he doing that?

I read a great article about "mirroring", it's throwing your pitches as close as possible to the same arm angle. Example, spin  a pitch one way you get a rising fast ball the other way you get a slider, little to no spin a change up. There by the hitters can't guess what's coming. Much of Bieber & Hill's success is striving to perfect this technic.

I'm not an expert but it seems that Archer could be throwing his pitches at different arm angles therefore a hitter that focuses on arm angles & Archer's pitches can be able to determine what he's throwing & unload on the pitch. If Archer can work on mirroring, have Wes up tick his FB & pitch selection & improve on his change up, he'd be awsome. 

[old nurse]

If Chris Archer learns a whole new set of mechanics as a pitcher he could be good. Isn’t that every pitcher?

[bighat]

You know the offseason has been bleak when you revisit a month-old Chris Archer thread, hoping the Twins made some kind of move.

 

 

[Doctor Gast]

Unfortunately Chris Archer signed with the Rays. I don't see any worthwhile starters out there we can afford. So maybe get a couple of relievers. Kintzler, Hill and Clippard are still available

[Brock Beauchamp]

Unfortunately Chris Archer signed with the Rays. I don't see any worthwhile starters out there we can afford. So maybe get a couple of relievers. Kintzler, Hill and Clippard are still available

I mostly agree but I’m really unsure what the Twins have for a budget this season. I’d find it equally unsurprising if they spent zero additional dollars as I’d be if they spent 15m more dollars.