Grief and pain in our community

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Many in the Twins Daily Community are feeling pain, grief, anger, and a sense of injustice as a natural response to the death of George Floyd earlier this week. While we are baseball-centric subject, this is an opportunity to support our community, especially the members of our community who are African American.

 

Join me in supporting our community and empathizing with our grieving members, support respectful and inclusive opinions, and raise up our community of diverse people and thinkers.

[ewen21]

I live 1,000 miles away, but .....could rioters stop burning down buildings, looting and destroying business?

 

Not sure I want to say anything more than that

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I live 1,000 miles away, but .....could rioters stop burning down buildings, looting and destroying business?

 

Not sure I want to say anything more than that

We’re supporting our community and part of our community is businesses and business owners, and I sympathize for them as well. It is unfortunate that the very justified anger has manifested into destruction.

 

I hope our leaders can help mend the brokenness leading to the destruction and return peace

[glunn]

I agree that destruction and looting are counterproductive. Here in Los Angeles, the destruction of businesses in the poor communities during the Rodney King riots harmed a lot of the people who lived in those areas, because it took years to rebuild stores that were geographically convenient to them, and many of them had to use our pathetic mass transit system to get to a store. Also, for the most part, I think that the store owners were innocent victims.

 

On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about the destruction of the precinct headquarters where the four officers were based. In general, I don't believe that burning down buildings is a productive response, but in this case I wonder if the burning of a precinct headquarters might make some officers think twice before brutalizing people of color.

[Squirrel]

I don't know anyone who condones violence, but when you spend a lifetime of being unheard, and there is no meaningful change in attitudes and how you are seen, this is where the anger goes. It's sad it comes to this, but I don't think major change happens without it. I consider Minneapolis my home even though I haven't lived there for 23 yrs. It will be my landing spot when I retire and I wish I were there now to lend a hand and a voice to the pain and protests. (And no, that doesn't mean I'd be out there looting and setting fire to things ... I don't condone it, but I understand it.)

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

If people spend an entire lifetime kneeling, praying, pleading, begging, and doing everything under their power to peacefully get people to listen, yet no one in power ever does, I’m not sure what anyone expects them to do other than what happened last night.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I live 1,000 miles away, but .....could rioters stop burning down buildings, looting and destroying business?

 

Not sure I want to say anything more than that

[glunn]

 

If people spend an entire lifetime kneeling, praying, pleading, begging, and doing everything under their power to peacefully get people to listen, yet no one in power ever does, I’m not sure what anyone expects them to do next other than what happened last night.

I have seen major progress during my lifetime. Something similar happened in my hometown (Memphis) when I was 17 and zero action was taken. Today, more and more officers are required to wear body cameras, and I think that the video has compelled the authorities to take action against the officers. Absent the videos I suspect that the officers would not face significant consequences in this case.

 

Based on the videos, I am hopeful that at least 3 of the officers (who held Mr. Floyd down) will be convicted of murder and receive meaningful prison time, and in my ideal world the fourth officer will be convicted as an accomplice.

 

I also wish that the bodycam videos and audios would all be released now, but I think that they are being held back to make it more difficult for the officers to contend that the jury pool has been tainted.

 

All of that said, for Mr. Floyd and thousands of others, it's far too little and far too late. And obviously, as a society, we need to do a lot more and it needs to happen now. In my mind, a good start would be arresting and charging the other 3 officers. I also hope that Mr. Floyd's family sues the city and the officers and gets punitive damages from all of them.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I agree that destruction and looting are counterproductive. Here in Los Angeles, the destruction of businesses in the poor communities during the Rodney King riots harmed a lot of the people who lived in those areas, because it took years to rebuild stores that were geographically convenient to them, and many of them had to use our pathetic mass transit system to get to a store. Also, for the most part, I think that the store owners were innocent victims.

 

On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about the destruction of the precinct headquarters where the four officers were based. In general, I don't believe that burning down buildings is a productive response, but in this case I wonder if the burning of a precinct headquarters might make some officers think twice before brutalizing people of color.

 

I think "thinking twice" will start to happen when the consequences get real. Hopefully, Derek Chauvin gets the consequences for his actions... which I might add should include general population if he is convicted. 

[stringer bell]

There's a lot to digest in this story. First of all, there appears to be no justification for the actions of the Minneapolis policemen. The victim was accused of a non-violent crime and if he was a threat, he was in handcuffs. The threat (if there was one) was neutralized. 

 

Secondly, while this is anecdotal, the evidence that people of color are victims of police misconduct and dying for no reason but their race is pretty substantial. Taking a knee doesn't seem to work, nor does protesting peacefully. 

 

My third thought is that burning down a police precinct and local businesses is counterproductive and that at a certain point the criminals and thugs get cover for their crimes. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

There's a lot to digest in this story. First of all, there appears to be no justification for the actions of the Minneapolis policemen. The victim was accused of a non-violent crime and if he was a threat, he was in handcuffs. The threat (if there was one) was neutralized.

 

Secondly, while this is anecdotal, the evidence that people of color are victims of police misconduct and dying for no reason but their race is pretty substantial. Taking a knee doesn't seem to work, nor does protesting peacefully.

 

My third thought is that burning down a police precinct and local businesses is counterproductive and that at a certain point the criminals and thugs get cover for their crimes.

You had me until burning down a police precinct is counterproductive.

 

I can’t think of a single action that is more clear and absolutely productive in this situation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I have seen major progress during my lifetime. Something similar happened in my hometown (Memphis) when I was 17 and zero action was taken. Today, more and more officers are required to wear body cameras, and I think that the video has compelled the authorities to take action against the officers. Absent the videos I suspect that the officers would not face significant consequences in this case.

 

Based on the videos, I am hopeful that at least 3 of the officers (who held Mr. Floyd down) will be convicted of murder and receive meaningful prison time, and in my ideal world the fourth officer will be convicted as an accomplice.

 

I also wish that the bodycam videos and audios would all be released now, but I think that they are being held back to make it more difficult for the officers to contend that the jury pool has been tainted.

 

All of that said, for Mr. Floyd and thousands of others, it's far too little and far too late. And obviously, as a society, we need to do a lot more and it needs to happen now. In my mind, a good start would be arresting and charging the other 3 officers. I also hope that Mr. Floyd's family sues the city and the officers and gets punitive damages from all of them.

As Governor Walz said (paraphrased), "I understand why people of color won't believe anything we say until justice is brought to them".

Words are nice. Justice is the answer.

[notoriousgod71]

 

I hope our leaders can help mend the brokenness leading to the destruction and return peace

What leaders?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

What leaders?

fair... Jacob Frey, Melvin Carter and Tim Walz all need to step up big

[ashbury]

I think "thinking twice" will start to happen when the consequences get real. Hopefully, Derek Chauvin gets the consequences for his actions... which I might add should include general population if he is convicted. 

Apparently Chauvin and Floyd once worked for the same employer. It's unclear whether they knew each other. It could be that part of the reason it took so long to file charges is that the investigation for motive will be time-consuming. I could see second-degree murder if this was a "well, well, look who we have here" situation. First-degree, if it turns out that the counterfeit bill situation was cooked up by the officers themselves.

 

People are understandably impatient, so the third-degree charge probably is what the prosecutors are sure will stick. There will be a long time before proceedings will go to trial, and I presume that the charges can be modified in light of new evidence.

 

I hope haste doesn't cause justice to be less than fully served with a first-degree charge if premeditation was involved. On the other hand, I can completely understand skepticism unless and until charges are brought. This charge at least increases the chances that the crime won't be swept under the rug.

 

All that said, I take issue with what I think you're implying about after he's convicted. Knowingly putting a prisoner in a situation that will result in torture or death is what barbaric countries do. Minnesota hasn't had capital punishment since 1911; jail must not become a de facto firing squad.

 

[ashbury]

I live 1,000 miles away, but .....could rioters stop burning down buildings, looting and destroying business?

There's reason to think false-flag operatives are involved. You've seen the video of the white guy with the hammer knocking out store windows, right? Umbrella Guy didn't react favorably when some peaceful protesters followed him. The police already felt it a good idea to disavow a connection to him.

 

An affordable-housing construction project burning down likewise is better explained by outside malice than by idiocy.

 

Not sure I want to say anything more than that

Pain? Grief? Anger? A sense of injustice?

 

Just, "rioters". This paints a picture of apathy that I don't imagine you really intended.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Apparently Chauvin and Floyd once worked for the same employer. It's unclear whether they knew each other. It could be that part of the reason it took so long to file charges is that the investigation for motive will be time-consuming. I could see second-degree murder if this was a "well, well, look who we have here" situation. First-degree, if it turns out that the counterfeit bill situation was cooked up by the officers themselves.

 

People are understandably impatient, so the third-degree charge probably is what the prosecutors are sure will stick. There will be a long time before proceedings will go to trial, and I presume that the charges can be modified in light of new evidence.

 

I hope haste doesn't cause justice to be less than fully served with a first-degree charge if premeditation was involved. On the other hand, I can completely understand skepticism unless and until charges are brought. This charge at least increases the chances that the crime won't be swept under the rug.

 

All that said, I take issue with what I think you're implying about after he's convicted. Knowingly putting a prisoner in a situation that will result in torture or death is what barbaric countries do. Minnesota hasn't had capital punishment since 1911; jail must not become a de facto firing squad.
 

 

I'm guessing you and I don't agree on Capital punishment, so I'll simply leave that at that. I will never feel sorry for a murderer, and I don't feel sorry though for a cop that continued to use excessive force even after he had subdued his suspect. Cops are supposed to be protectors of the people and should be held to higher standards, not a judge, jury, and executioner... In this case, that's what he was, and I don't have a problem with him receiving the same fate... but it won't happen regardless, so I guess we can drop that...

 

But back to your other points, I'd agree that the 3rd degree charge is there so that it sticks. If there's true history to the two, then yes, I suspect you'll see higher charge (and probably should)... There's a bigger problem here that also tends to fall through the cracks. Governments rarely fire anyone, even for cause, and local ones are no different. This particular officer had a bit of a history here too, and nothing was done about it. Not to mention that Minneapolis PD has had a bit of a bad history in this area over the last few years... one would think that there would be some serious attempts to clean house and establish a more professional corps. It's sad that this has not happened yet.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

You had me until burning down a police precinct is counterproductive.

I can’t think of a single action that is more clear and absolutely productive in this situation.

 

So let's start a war and kill off a bunch of good cops because of the bad? Look, there's good reason to be angry here. I'm not going to argue that. But for someone who seems concerned about loss of life in other positions, this is an odd take.

 

I think it's quite fair to want to take that anger out on the person who did it. That was a heinous crime and should be punished accordingly, but focusing the anger on others who are innocent make the situation much worse. I don't think every Minneapolis cop is a bad one, do you?

[nicksaviking]

I think it's quite fair to want to take that anger out on the person who did it. That was a heinous crime and should be punished accordingly, but focusing the anger on others who are innocent make the situation much worse. I don't think every Minneapolis cop is a bad one, do you?

No but the fact that there were four bad cops and zero good cops on this particular call about a stupid $20 bill suggests there are way more bad ones than we’d previously suspected.

 

If it was logistically possible, I’d be in favor of replacing the entire MPLS police department and letting the good ones reapply only after a thorough investigation of their past behavior and psychological evaluation. Doesn’t sound possible though.

[ashbury]

I'm guessing you and I don't agree on Capital punishment, so I'll simply leave that at that.

Actually, I think there is a place for it. Certain crimes are deserving, in my book.

 

But, given that a locality doesn't provide for that punishment, I do not favor what amounts to vigilante justice. Particularly when it's the governmental body itself winking at it.

 

And I don't believe in torture.

 

Hopefully this doesn't wind up being a tangent to this thread, but I did want to clarify in light of your response.

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

No but the fact that there were four bad cops and zero good cops on this particular call about a stupid $20 bill suggests there are way more bad ones than we’d previously suspected.

If it was logistically possible, I’d be in favor of replacing the entire MPLS police department and letting the good ones reapply only after a thorough investigation of their past behavior and psychological evaluation. Doesn’t sound possible though.

 

It needs an overhaul, though I don't see a scenario where it can be immediate. These things usually aren't unfortunately.  One would think that some of the previous incidents with Minneapolis PD would have started this process, but it hasn't, and for each of the ones making the news, there's plenty of other things that likely didn't make the news b/c someone survived.

 

It has to start at the top though. This is a cultural change. Top level leaders all need to be replaced and they need to have the authority to cut anyone not buying into the new culture they need to establish. That's how organizations change. The problem with something like this is that it's mostly political. Chances are the people at the top don't have the faintest clue (and that's before we talk about skillset) on how to restructure an organization... and chances are that even if they were to be replaced tomorrow, their replacements wouldn't either. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Actually, I think there is a place for it. Certain crimes are deserving, in my book.

 

But, given that a locality doesn't provide for that punishment, I do not favor what amounts to vigilante justice. Particularly when it's the governmental body itself winking at it.

 

And I don't believe in torture.

 

Hopefully this doesn't wind up being a tangent to this thread, but I did want to clarify in light of your response.
 

Fair enough, we can kill the tangent.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

[Squirrel]

So let's start a war and kill off a bunch of good cops because of the bad? Look, there's good reason to be angry here. I'm not going to argue that. But for someone who seems concerned about loss of life in other positions, this is an odd take.

 

I think it's quite fair to want to take that anger out on the person who did it. That was a heinous crime and should be punished accordingly, but focusing the anger on others who are innocent make the situation much worse. I don't think every Minneapolis cop is a bad one, do you?

So you think burning down the precinct house was people trying to kill cops? Or a symbol to kill cops? The aim wasn’t to kill cops or send a message cop killing was the agenda. No one was hurt or killed. It’s a symbol of burning down the system, the blue culture that has allowed the murdering of black men. Of course there are good cops, but why don’t more stand up to this and work to change the system here? There were four police officers at that scene ... to subdue an unarmed man who committed a non-violent crime involving a $20 forgery. Four. And not one of them stopped this, despite the screams from onlookers. And the stop involved a gun drawn and pointing at George Floyd’s head, and ended with him on the ground, in handcuffs, gasping for air and saying his Mother's name until he was dead. And then at a peaceful protest downtown, tear gas was used. After decades of examples of this, being unheard, while I don’t condone the violence, I understand it, particularly the burning of the precinct house, after an arrest wasn’t immediate.

[stringer bell]

Former mayor RT Rybak has fingered the head of the Policeman's Federation as a villain in the problems with the Minneapolis Police Department. This seems to be in part political (Kroll is a Trump guy), but the Federation has robustly defended their own and also used "Warrior" training methods, which include (as I understand it) the knee-on-the-neck move to restrain those that are arrested. 

[glunn]

It seems to me that one good place to start would be to restructure the Police Conduct Review Panel. http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/civilrights/policereview/WCMS1P-101250

 

From their website:

 

"The Police Conduct Review Panel is comprised of eight civilians appointed by the Mayor and City Council and a pool of sworn panelists selected by the Office of the Chief. After a complaint investigation is concluded, it is submitted to the Panel for review. Two civilians and two sworn panelists review the case, discuss it, and submit a recommendation on the merits to the Chief of Police."

 

It seems to me that in light of the prior complaints against the officer and the fact that it appears that he was never effectively disciplined, the "watchdog" panel needs to be changed so that the civilians outnumber the police members of the panel, and that the mayor and city council need to appoint more people of color to the panel. I also wonder whether the chief of police should be fired for not adequately addressing the prior complaints.

 

I understand that police have a dangerous job and that they need some latitude in protecting themselves on the streets. But I have read that other jobs are more dangerous.  https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

 

I believe that there are a lot of things that can be done to reduce the incidence of police brutality. Previously I believed that body cameras would provide an effective deterrent, but now I think that was somewhat naive. Now I think that we need to look at having better civilian review boards, better training, more restrictions on the use of force (for example, limits on what can be done to restrain someone who is already handcuffed) and more accountability for the mayors and other politicians who talk a good game but don't actually do much to change the system.

 

At the moment, I understand the need to express outrage and grief, but I also think that this is a good time to take a look at what can be done to make lasting changes that will greatly reduce the problem. I wonder what my fellow Twins fans might suggest in this regard.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

So you think burning down the precinct house was people trying to kill cops? Or a symbol to kill cops? The aim wasn’t to kill cops or send a message cop killing was the agenda. No one was hurt or killed. It’s a symbol of burning down the system, the blue culture that has allowed the murdering of black men. Of course there are good cops, but why don’t more stand up to this and work to change the system here? There were four police officers at that scene ... to subdue an unarmed man who committed a non-violent crime involving a $20 forgery. Four. And not one of them stopped this, despite the screams from onlookers. And the stop involved a gun drawn and pointing at George Floyd’s head, and ended with him on the ground, in handcuffs, gasping for air and saying his Mother's name until he was dead. And then at a peaceful protest downtown, tear gas was used. After decades of examples of this, being unheard, while I don’t condone the violence, I understand it, particularly the burning of the precinct house, after an arrest wasn’t immediate.

 

When I read Brock's post, I read it has him advocating for doing such a thing, not realizing it had already been done. That said, think burning down a precinct house is going to eventually kill a lot of people, and it won't just be cops. It's not like the armed police are going to typically step aside and let it happen. .

 

To your other points, I wholeheartedly agree. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

It seems to me that one good place to start would be to restructure the Police Conduct Review Panel. http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/civilrights/policereview/WCMS1P-101250

 

From their website:

 

"The Police Conduct Review Panel is comprised of eight civilians appointed by the Mayor and City Council and a pool of sworn panelists selected by the Office of the Chief. After a complaint investigation is concluded, it is submitted to the Panel for review. Two civilians and two sworn panelists review the case, discuss it, and submit a recommendation on the merits to the Chief of Police."

 

It seems to me that in light of the prior complaints against the officer and the fact that it appears that he was never effectively disciplined, the "watchdog" panel needs to be changed so that the civilians outnumber the police members of the panel, and that the mayor and city council need to appoint more people of color to the panel. I also wonder whether the chief of police should be fired for not adequately addressing the prior complaints.

 

I understand that police have a dangerous job and that they need some latitude in protecting themselves on the streets. But I have read that other jobs are more dangerous.  https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html

 

I believe that there are a lot of things that can be done to reduce the incidence of police brutality. Previously I believed that body cameras would provide an effective deterrent, but now I think that was somewhat naive. Now I think that we need to look at having better civilian review boards, better training, more restrictions on the use of force (for example, limits on what can be done to restrain someone who is already handcuffed) and more accountability for the mayors and other politicians who talk a good game but don't actually do much to change the system.

 

At the moment, I understand the need to express outrage and grief, but I also think that this is a good time to take a look at what can be done to make lasting changes that will greatly reduce the problem. I wonder what my fellow Twins fans might suggest in this regard.

 

I really think the investigation into police brutality needs to be taken out of the hands of people who are too close to the ones being investigated. Way too many of these investigations have led to the issues being swept under a rug with some obvious concerns about conflicts of interest... I wonder if it would be better if the state were take the investigation and have it run by people outside of Minneapolis... and keep it VERY public. 

 

As for the force themselves, it tends to be a very military culture as a lot of ex-military are hired into those roles. I don't think the skill sets needed in the armed forces necessarily overlap. While some degree of overlap can be good, there's definitely a problem there...I personally think a "don't fire until fired upon" should be something the police forces should be living by as opposed to the current "I thought he had a gun", and if you aren't psychologically capable of being able to handle that kind of life in danger stress, then you have no business carrying a badge and gun. As well, there are plenty of non-violent de-escalation techniques that can be taught. To be honest though, I don't think your typical academy covers those types of techniques, and do to the political nature of policing can be discouraged (full disclosure, my sister is a cop, and could tell you stories of some of that).

 

Ultimately, to change the culture as it is, large number of people are going to have to be fired and replaced... that has to start at the top though, and sadly, it won't be instantaneous. 

[ewen21]

 

You had me until burning down a police precinct is counterproductive.

I can’t think of a single action that is more clear and absolutely productive in this situation.

Wow.  You advocate burning down the police precinct?  I am sorry, but that has only emboldened the looters and rioting to take it a step further.   I thought the protests early on were hopeful.  I saw white and black people peacefully assembling in protest and it was perfectly appropriate.  What you are endorsing is not.  

 

I think the death penalty is something that should be immediately administered in some cases.  With what Chauvin did, what is there to talk about?  Same with school shooters. 

 

That said....

I am sorry, Brock, but this kind of action isn't going to fix the problem.  This is not justice.  Not at all.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Wow. You advocate burning down the police precinct? I am sorry, but that has only emboldened the looters and rioting to take it a step further. I thought the protests early on were hopeful. I saw white and black people peacefully assembling in protest and it was perfectly appropriate. What you are endorsing is not.

 

I think the death penalty is something that should be immediately administered in some cases. With what Chauvin did, what is there to talk about? Same with school shooters.

 

That said....

I am sorry, Brock, but this kind of action isn't going to fix the problem. This is not justice. Not at all.

What do you see as the problem? What do you mean by justice? It would help if we could understand each other better.

 

I will add that it’s something of a miracle that only a couple people have lost their lives across the country the past couple nights. Keep that in mind. This tells me that this fight isn’t about hating each other. It’s about uprooting an unjust system. (That’s my short version of it, anyway.