Grief and pain in our community

[gunnarthor]

SI article on this and sports - https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/colin-kaepernick-took-a-knee

[Brock Beauchamp]

Wow. You advocate burning down the police precinct? I am sorry, but that has only emboldened the looters and rioting to take it a step further. I thought the protests early on were hopeful. I saw white and black people peacefully assembling in protest and it was perfectly appropriate. What you are endorsing is not.

 

I think the death penalty is something that should be immediately administered in some cases. With what Chauvin did, what is there to talk about? Same with school shooters.

 

That said....

I am sorry, Brock, but this kind of action isn't going to fix the problem. This is not justice. Not at all.

Property doesn’t matter, particularly when the destruction of property stems from the continual loss of life while we all sit back and sip tea instead of doing something about it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The original post from the Kepler thread had some points to discuss.

 

To say Black Lives Matter is to acknowledge that black people are racially profiled and discriminated against. It’s not to minimize the value of other people lives. Of course all lives matter, that’s not the point.

 

We need to affirm the rights of our neighbors, and acknowledge the inequality and injustice some of our community members face.

 

Not everyone can be out there protesting, but we can say that the injustice is wrong, it needs to change.

All Lives Matter didn’t exist until an uppity black person had the audacity to say “Black Lives Matter”.

 

That’s as much as we should need to know about the All Lives Matter “movement”.

 

BLM is not exclusionary. It’s trying to peacefully be inclusionary yet it receives massive resistance, just as every black leader and protestor has every time they challenge the fact they are treated as lower-class citizens in this society.

[ewen21]

 

I'm answering this for me and not Brock to be clear, but I don't think two wrongs make a right, and I suspect pretty much everyone here would agree with that on some level. But people should be angry about this. It was flat out murder, and there's no way to get around that as men who were charged to serve and protect did just the opposite. People can be angry about the looting and violence too. Both are wrong. Rodney King and George Floyd were travesties... So was Reginald Denny. I think being upset about both is human. Either one to the exclusion of the other is dangerous. 

 

Personally, I'd like to see more of what happened in Flint where the cops walked along side the protesters. It really shouldn't be an us vs. them thing. That was one of the tweets in Sconnie's link that he posted. There's an opportunity for the good ones to stand up here. Personally, I hope and pray that we see a lot more of that.

One can be outraged with what happened to Mr. Floyd and tired of the unrest at the same time.  It is almost as though people assume you can't be both, or that if I am sick of all the riots I don't care about police brutality.  

 

When is this insanity enough?  When do we move forward with a dialogue?  

[ewen21]

 

Property doesn’t matter, particularly when the destruction of property stems from the continual loss of life while we all sit back and sip tea instead of doing something about it.

That is a bunch of crap.  When someone burns down your house get back to me.  Tell that to the shop owner who didn't do a damn thing and gets his store ransacked.  I am all for a reaction with the intention to facilitate change, but this is sheer lunacy.  Even worse, we are in the midst of a pandemic and this is going to only make things worse.  How do we rebuild with all the jobs lost AND with all the destruction?

 

If you want to endorse these actions then that's you.  I think its strayed way too far from the initial purpose.  Now we have new unrelated issues to solve.  How is this insanity addressing police brutality?  If anything it will coax more of it the longer it goes.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That is a bunch of crap. When someone burns down your house get back to me. Tell that to the shop owner who didn't do a damn thing and gets his store ransacked. I am all for a reaction with the intention to facilitate change, but this is sheer lunacy. Even worse, we are in the midst of a pandemic and this is going to only make things worse. How do we rebuild with all the jobs lost AND with all the destruction?

 

If you want to endorse these actions then that's you. I think its strayed way too far from the initial purpose. Now we have new unrelated issues to solve. How is this insanity addressing police brutality? If anything it will coax more of it the longer it goes.

What peaceful protests happened in the past 30 years that have changed police brutality?

 

Also, AFAIK no houses have been burned down but okay.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For the record, I’m not pro-looting, pro-rioting, or pro-arson.

 

But, as white society, we should be asking ourselves the question “What options have we left black America?”

 

I mean, a football player took a knee over this, literally the most peaceful form of protest possible, and we lost our collective mind over it.

 

Perhaps our indifference, mixed with our condemnation over any form of protest, might - JUST MIGHT - have something to do with black America having no ****s left to give what we think.

[ewen21]

 

For the record, I’m not pro-looting, pro-rioting, or pro-arson.

But, as white society, we should be asking ourselves the question “What options have we left black America?”

I mean, a football player took a knee over this, literally the most peaceful form of protest possible, and we lost our collective mind over it.

Perhaps our indifference, mixed with our condemnation over any form of protest, might - JUST MIGHT - have something to do with black America having no ****s left to give what we think.

 

I don't think this place can be characterized as indifferent to issues of race.  Not with the discussions I have had here.  I also think the elephant in the room that has to be part of the discussion is the data on the murder rate amongst African Americans.  It can't be easy policing in certain communities where bullets fly and cases don't get solved because they won't "snitch"

Let's not act like this isn't a factor in all this.

 

To simply brush that aside and chalk it up to "systemic racism" excuses the behavior.  To hold one side accountable and castigate the other side will accomplish nothing.  When two groups don't mesh well blame has to be shared and I fear it won't be on any level and "systemic racism" and "oppression" will be in the vernacular forever.  I also fear that African American males will continue committing murder at a wildly disproportionate rate and it will be accepted as normal (or completely ignored and explained away)  That's my fear.  The data has never been discussed in an open forum without people shouting objections over it and losing their heads.  It is data.  Numbers don't lie, people do

 

We aren't going to agree in certain areas, but thanks for letting me speak about this.  The topic is way too important to ignore and I am glad people are waking up to it.  I never ignored this.  As early as 40 years ago I was reading about the civil rights movement.  One of my favorite books was the autobiography of Malcom X.  He is possibly one of the most misunderstood figures in American history.

 

This is a very exhausting and emotional topic to discuss, but have to keep our heads when discussing it.  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Exhausting and emotional indeed. I am ready to get going with the healing. Looks like some Minneapolis firefighters are ready to start the healing too:

 

[stringer bell]

I’m watching coverage of the protests tonight. The police are doing their job of enforcing the curfew, the remaining protesters are now being arrested. No discernible violence, no property damage.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

One can be outraged with what happened to Mr. Floyd and tired of the unrest at the same time.  It is almost as though people assume you can't be both, or that if I am sick of all the riots I don't care about police brutality.  

 

When is this insanity enough?  When do we move forward with a dialogue?  

That won't happen as long as it's an us vs. them situation... You're right... dialogue needs to happen. You want it, pay attention to how it was handled in Flint. That's what will start dialogue. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

For the record, I’m not pro-looting, pro-rioting, or pro-arson.

But, as white society, we should be asking ourselves the question “What options have we left black America?”

I mean, a football player took a knee over this, literally the most peaceful form of protest possible, and we lost our collective mind over it.

Perhaps our indifference, mixed with our condemnation over any form of protest, might - JUST MIGHT - have something to do with black America having no ****s left to give what we think.

 

Like it or not, culture change takes time. Should it be quicker? Yes.

 

But, I'd be careful about "we" losing our collective mind over it. You didn't. I didn't. Not everyone did. And if there's a silver lining in this event that number will grow too. Does society need to get it quicker? Yes... absolutely. Should society be angry? Yes... absolutely. We watched a man get murdered in cold blood by people charged to serve and protect. Should we be punishing people who had nothing to do with it? No. 

 

[AZTwin]

When will there be justice for all those impacted or killed by the riots?

[Squirrel]

 

When will there be justice for all those impacted or killed by the riots?

When every black person gets theirs. They've been waiting longer. First things first.

[nicksaviking]

One can be outraged with what happened to Mr. Floyd and tired of the unrest at the same time. It is almost as though people assume you can't be both, or that if I am sick of all the riots I don't care about police brutality.

 

When is this insanity enough? When do we move forward with a dialogue?

 

But do you really think substantive dialogue can happen with people who are still dead set on voting for leaders that are intentionally deflecting discussion form the long term problems of civil rights inequality and police reform to the short term problems of the riots? Change needs to start at the top. We can’t put people in power who’s top priority is to help the wealthy and upper middle class and somehow then expect a more equitable system to form.

[ewen21]

 

But do you really think substantive dialogue can happen with people who are still dead set on voting for leaders that are intentionally deflecting discussion form the long term problems of civil rights inequality and police reform to the short term problems of the riots? Change needs to start at the top. We can’t put people in power who’s top priority is to help the wealthy and upper middle class and somehow then expect a more equitable system to form.

Do you think we need to set the bar so low that nothing should change in these dangerous gang infested neighborhoods? Can't two things happen at once?

 

That is what's called cooperation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Like it or not, culture change takes time. Should it be quicker? Yes.

 

But, I'd be careful about "we" losing our collective mind over it. You didn't. I didn't. Not everyone did. And if there's a silver lining in this event that number will grow too. Does society need to get it quicker? Yes... absolutely. Should society be angry? Yes... absolutely. We watched a man get murdered in cold blood by people charged to serve and protect. Should we be punishing people who had nothing to do with it? No.

Change takes time, for sure, but Rodney King was 29 years ago. How have we actually changed in this regard? Three decades is a long tome to make this little (or no) real change.

[nicksaviking]

 

Do you think we need to set the bar so low that nothing should change in these dangerous gang infested neighborhoods? Can't two things happen at once?

 

That is what's called cooperation.

 

You've clearly never been to Lake Street, it is not gang infested. The riots will dissipate, everyone should be focusing on the civil rights issues. Perhaps, asking people to stop making assumptions that all neighborhoods with black citizens are gang infested could be the first issue to tackle.

[Craig Arko]

I have to think about this idea for a while longer before making a decision about it. But it’s a notion to consider.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/31/the-answer-to-police-violence-is-not-reform-its-defunding-heres-why

[akmanak]

Property doesn’t matter, particularly when the destruction of property stems from the continual loss of life while we all sit back and sip tea instead of doing something about it.

Are you kidding me? It is 2020 and you believe that destruction of property is justified to get a point across ?

 

I believe you are sipping tea. I have been on Lake St and live in the Kingfield neighborhood and let me tell you that any destruction of property is not okay. Helping several business owners clean up the mayhem that the losers did I can assure you destruction of property did indeed mean something.

 

Do you realize that insurance might cost the loss of the building but not tools or personal items? Do you understand the loss of a building doesn’t cover from the amount of business you lose until/if you actually rebuild?

 

So continue to sip your tea while I help another person sweep and clean up their livelihood .

[Craig Arko]

And of course while this is happening we still have a global pandemic and a wild and woolly Summer heat and storm season to contend with.

 

But let’s not talk about that either, because not talking about problems is such an effective way of dealing with them.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Change takes time, for sure, but Rodney King was 29 years ago. How have we actually changed in this regard? Three decades is a long tome to make this little (or no) real change.

I agree that 3 decades is way to long, especially for changes that needed to happen from an even longer time frame... and to answer the question... yes and no.

 

I think the real problem comes due to a culture of brutality and a lack of accountability that has been allowed to exist for years. That lack of accountability is in my opinion the big driving force behind it. Chauvin had plenty of accusations against him. Nothing was ever done... and that's sadly very true within most lines of government work. 

[nicksaviking]

 

I agree that 3 decades is way to long, especially for changes that needed to happen from an even longer time frame... and to answer the question... yes and no.

 

I think the real problem comes due to a culture of brutality and a lack of accountability that has been allowed to exist for years. That lack of accountability is in my opinion the big driving force behind it. Chauvin had plenty of accusations against him. Nothing was ever done... and that's sadly very true within most lines of government work. 

 

I'll offer an opinion that's probably more conservative as it's sympathetic to police forces. The job just does not pay enough. Large metro police departments are underfunded, and all of them almost certainly find themselves in the position where they have to decide on being understaffed, or hiring the kind of people who only want the job because they get off on carrying a gun and asserting their authority over others. Once you get enough of these guys, it's going to be hard to change the culture as the brutality and lack of accountability is what they signed up for in the first place, and these Alpha types tend to be very good at drawing lapdog followers and influencing others with the allure of the power they promote.

 

It can be a dangerous job, we need to pay them better if for no other reason than to attract the best society has to offer.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I'll offer an opinion that's probably more conservative as it's sympathetic to police forces. The job just does not pay enough. Large metro police departments are underfunded, and all of them almost certainly find themselves in the position where they have to decide on being understaffed, or hiring the kind of people who only want the job because they get off on carrying a gun and asserting their authority over others. Once you get enough of these guys, it's going to be hard to change the culture as the brutality and lack of accountability is what they signed up for in the first place, and these Alpha types tend to be very good at drawing lapdog followers and influencing others with the allure of the power they promote.

 

It can be a dangerous job, we need to pay them better if for no other reason than to attract the best society has to offer.

you could make a case that public servants in general are underpaid and that could be a detriment to efficacy of recruitment and retention strategies, but hundreds of years of history says this is more of a public apathy issue than it is an HR issue.

 

Chauvin was only the match that lit the fuse. If not Chauvin there was going to be another officer.

 

It’s not just the police institution getting protested, and the strong police leaders are marching along side the people suffering most of this injustice, who are the same people who have suffered most of Covid-19, have died in greater numbers because of it, and have been laid off because of the economic impact of it.

 

There are many institutions that have failed huge swaths of our society. Throwing some money at underpaid police doesn’t fix that.

[Craig Arko]

Were I to look for a place to begin making reforms to the Mpls. LE agencies I might choose to start here.

 

http://www.citypages.com/news/bob-kroll-plans-to-fight-for-jobs-of-cops-who-killed-george-floyd/570922481

[nicksaviking]

 

Were I to look for a place to begin making reforms to the Mpls. LE agencies I might choose to start here.

 

http://www.citypages.com/news/bob-kroll-plans-to-fight-for-jobs-of-cops-who-killed-george-floyd/570922481

 

The fact that police officers continue to vote for this guy proves that there are not enough good police officers. This "Brotherhood" nonsense needs to end. Police can't continue to support bad police unconditionally.

 

But that link in paragraph three would be a great place to start. Only 8% of MPLS officers actually live in Minneapolis? Make that a requirement. 

[Craig Arko]

Here's a cop (a police chief, actually) I can really like.

 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/06/01/houston-police-chief-art-acevedo-trump-mouth-shut-vpx.cnn

[ewen21]

 

Here's a cop (a police chief, actually) I can really like.

 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/06/01/houston-police-chief-art-acevedo-trump-mouth-shut-vpx.cnn

I see why you like him.

 

All cops aren't bad after all, right?

[Squirrel]

 

I see why you like him.

 

All cops aren't bad after all, right?

No one said they were.

[ewen21]

As the hour comes near I hope the peaceful protesters use better discretion and sit this night out.  Go home.  Take a day off and let businesses and streets get better secured.  We need COVID-proof, looter-proof arson-proof storefronts.  It will take time