Jim Bowden (The Athletic) Trade Proposal for Twins

[Twodogs]

Mad baum at least has proven that he will do anything for a team to help them win a title. Not saying that Madbaum is the best available for the Twins, but if he is then might as well go for it. I mean they will probably be losing a few of their pitchers this off season anyway so realistically you can't place any hope on next year anyway. The only way to put together a top rotation next year will be through free agency once again. So they need to go for whatever deal seems to fit the best and go for it. They need bullpen help really badly

[Guest]

 

I think most teams have moved away from trading blue chips for a rental.

 

My expectation, hope?, is the Twins look for a pitcher that is top flight, but still owed a bit of money on their contract and they get him as part of a salary dump.

 

I'm not sure if such an animal exists but, hey, why not dream a bit?

I think this is pretty much where I'm at, as well. I haven't looked around too hard at what, if any, good SPs might fall into this category, but when the Twins FO started the season a bit lower on the payroll than some of us felt was reasonable, the theory was that doing such left room to spend some money if/when the roster proved worthy of augmentation. They have done their part.

 

If there are teams looking to dump salary, it shouldn't take a top prospect AND a willingness to eat a ton of salary to get such a rental. Just not sure if such an animal exists yet. As we've gone over, however, the Twins don't have to be in a hurry to pull the trigger.

[dgwills]

The Twins say no and the Giants likely say no as well. Falvey has shown that he does not like to risk the future to sell out for today (I like that about him). The strength of the Twins major league club and minors is position players. They have cost controlled players at virtually every position and a lot of talent in the minor leagues at most every position.  The weakness of the Twins is pitching. They only have 1 top of the rotation pitcher on the mlb team under contract for multiple seasons and the minors are lacking top end pitching talent. They're not going to trade their top pitching prospect.

For the Giants side of things the trade doesn't look that great either. Gordon is a middling prospect and looks like he will be a AAAA player. Graterol has looked great, but still seems like a lottery ticket since he does not have a long track record of success. They'd likely want a more surefire prospect if they are going to trade a guy who has been the face of the franchise for so long.

[Don Walcott]

Remember when we traded Escobar? Then he signed on with the D-Backs. And St. Louis traded for Goldy, and he signed on with the Cards.

 

I like the idea of MadBum on this team. Similar mojo to getting Morris in1991. And considering the improved atmosphere around this team, and especially the pitching coach, I think we'd have a decent shot at keeping him.

 

Bumgarner has had some bad luck with injuries (some might say stupid luck), but has proven himself when the best teams are playing in the most important games. That kind of ability and experience could be a boost to our relatively young and untested aces.

 

I also don't know enough about prospects to say who we should or should not trade away. But I would be all in favor of going after Bumgarner and Smith as soon as possible. San Fran doesn't need money. But they do need to re-tool an aging team. This could be the perfect time to approach them.

 

[Riverbrian]

 

I get what you're saying. Yes, it MIGHT mean that you trade 2 top prospects and end up, in 2020, with just one top of the rotation pitcher in return (having lost the other to FA after 2019). But, that assumes that you couldn't get that SP as a FA by simply spending money during that 19-20 offseason.

 

But more importantly, I think, is that your equation leaves out one pretty critical variable completely. Exactly what do you consider the value of a World Series? If you're just renting a Mad Bum type without a reasonable expectation for a deep postseason run, I agree with you completely.

 

However, the REAL question, to me, is... would it be worth a Graterol and POTENTIALLY another top prospect to get a rented Mad Bum, POTENTIALLY a World Series ring and a different top SP for 2020 when you're trying to extend your window?

 

Ignoring the potential of a World Series, to me, ignores the entire reason why you would even consider trading for a top rental SP, at any price.

 

OK... I'm out of the rain and dried off. I can try again without being distracted by the raindrops. 

 

First, for complete clarity. If my team is in contention... there is no circumstance where I will punt a playoff contending team. I will try to improve the club in preparation for the playoffs every single time. It doesn't matter if my team backed into the last wild card spot. I'm prepping for a deep playoff run. Basically... if I'm in the playoffs... I'm thinking deep playoff run and there is no circumstance that would make me think differently. 

 

We have 3 blue chips. My definition of Blue Chip is top 100. Obviously, the Blue Chips will bring back the best quality in return. 

 

If a Bumgarner rental costs me 33% of my Blue Chip stack like Bowden suggested. I'd rather spend that 33% of my Blue Chip stack plus additional prospects for someone like Syndergaard who is also available to pitch for us next year. Or Duffy with the Royals, Boyd or Fulmer with the Tigers, Kluber, Bauer or Carrasco with the Indians or Stroman with the Jays. 

 

I like him but, I don't believe that Bumgarner is a guaranteed World Series victory. Now, weather he increases our chances over the guys I list is certainly debatable. However, the guys I list can help us this year and they can help us next year. 

 

The window next year will be open for us. This offense is real and it will be back. We can go for it this year and next year. 

 

We need to find 3 starters for next year and there is no historical precedence of any team grabbing 3 top flight free agent starters in one off-season and there is certainly no historical precedence of a team with the Twins self imposed financial limitations doing this.

 

We will have to make a trade for a starter next year. Burning a Blue Chip on a rental means that you are actually burning two before training camp or settling for a lessor starting pitcher in 2020 because we spent on a rental. 

 

Bottom Line, If you are spending a blue chip. Get a starter who will pitch this year and next year. If you have to trade Graterol plus to get the extra year, so be it. 

[Thrylos]

I'd do that trade, plus I'd throw in the player who would need to  be taken off the 40-man roster to accommodate, for a Rk/A prospect.

 

I don't think that Gordon will be as good as his brother, and his brother is not that great.  I am really concerned with Graterol's injurability, esp. since his weapon is his FB and relies on a pretty all out delivery to get there.

[Riverbrian]

 

I think most teams have moved away from trading blue chips for a rental.

 

My expectation, hope?, is the Twins look for a pitcher that is top flight, but still owed a bit of money on their contract and they get him as part of a salary dump.

 

I'm not sure if such an animal exists but, hey, why not dream a bit?

 

The Animal you refer to is Zach Greinke. The more money on that contract we assume will lower the prospect price needed to complete the deal accordingly. 

 

We can still purchase a player. Take on the whole contract, we might get him for Seth Stohs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ashbury]

I wonder what is the Giants' greatest area of need.

Wins.

 

we might get him for Seth Stohs.

That's a deal-breaker.

[Twodogs]

The Animal you refer to is Zach Greinke. The more money on that contract we assume will lower the prospect price needed to complete the deal accordingly.

 

We can still purchase a player. Take on the whole contract, we might get him for Seth Stohs.

Greinke also could be a pinch hitter, in desperation, late in a game, which could be nice in these days of 13 man staffs and only 3 dudes on the bench.

[Dantes929]

I wasn't relying on Brusdar for 2020.   I was relying on him for 2019.   A guy throws high heat with quality secondary pitches and good command resulting in 5 shutouts in AA before June I think he is a good bet.   Talk about a low risk high upside reliever or 5th starter.    The injury can happen to anyone anytime but the risk is why you don't waste the bullets in the minors.   I don't know from shoulder impingements but I am still hopeful he is our ace in the hole in the fall.

 

[Blake]

 

The Animal you refer to is Zach Greinke. The more money on that contract we assume will lower the prospect price needed to complete the deal accordingly. 

 

We can still purchase a player. Take on the whole contract, we might get him for Seth Stohs. 

I wasn't aware of the dire pitching situation of next year.

 

We all have seen what happens when the future is mortgaged for the now.

 

So, yeah, find a high salary pitcher that will be under control through next year, which solves this year and next and work from there.

[Roaddog]

If your giving up any of our Top 5 prospects, it can't be a rental player. Wander Javier is another I wouldn't trade.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I think if the Twins were the only team with any interest in MB, and the only team to whom he could not veto a trade, and the Twins agreed to eat all of the remaining money, and the throw in was decent, the Giants would still give a resounding “not in a million years”

that’s fine, they can keep him or trade him somewhere else

[jkcarew]

I'd do the trade. It's unrealistic to think that a 20 year old guy that they've decided to shut down is anywhere near helping the major league club. Graterol was actually not striking out guys at the rate of most of the other Pensacola starters...given his velo, that's a sign that he doesn't yet have a high-quality/consistent secondary pitch. (See Fernando Romero...another 6-foot-0 power right-hander.) Plenty of potential, but still plenty of risk there....including the risk that he's a reliever long-term. Gordon is a position of organizational depth.

[Guest]

If Charley Walters is right (I know, that's a big IF), we may be about to find out on this question. Reporting that the Twins and Giants are "moving closer" to a deal for Bumgarner.

[Mike Sixel]

I wasn't relying on Brusdar for 2020. I was relying on him for 2019. A guy throws high heat with quality secondary pitches and good command resulting in 5 shutouts in AA before June I think he is a good bet. Talk about a low risk high upside reliever or 5th starter. The injury can happen to anyone anytime but the risk is why you don't waste the bullets in the minors. I don't know from shoulder impingements but I am still hopeful he is our ace in the hole in the fall.

Agree. If he's not in their plans as late as next year, this team is in real trouble next year. But I've been saying that for months.

[ashbury]

Agree. If he's not in their plans as late as next year, this team is in real trouble next year. But I've been saying that for months.

If one guy not working out means you're in trouble, you're already in trouble.

[prouster]

https://www.twincities.com/2019/06/15/charley-walters-low-key-rocco-baldelli-has-just-the-right-touch-for-twins/

 

I wasn’t sure where to put this link, but if you scroll far enough you’ll see a claim that the Twins are making progress on a deal for Bumgarner. Doogie threw some cold water on it via Twitter, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

[bird]

 

 

 

The Twins really need to kill two birds with one stone here (Sorry Birdwatcher... I know you like Birds and are probably against stones used in that fashion). 

 

 

 

European Starlings, Brown-headed Cowbirds, and Sky Carp? (That's a Canada Goose up where YOU live)

 

Stone 'em

[crapforks]

https://www.twincities.com/2019/06/15/charley-walters-low-key-rocco-baldelli-has-just-the-right-touch-for-twins/

 

I wasn’t sure where to put this link, but if you scroll far enough you’ll see a claim that the Twins are making progress on a deal for Bumgarner. Doogie threw some cold water on it via Twitter, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

One thing I always think of when I think of him is when reported a “rumor” about interest in Brett Boone back in the day. That printing inspired the team to inquire on him and they ended up making a trade. Something to that effect. Boone wasn’t really on their radar until the Walters blurb. Also, that Bumgarner blurb really does like some [wink] sources [wink]. Pretty impressive if Walters, of all people, is the only baseball writer in the country with that info.

[terrydactyls]

The Yankee just trade a 19-year old pitching prospect in the Gulf Coast League and got the American League home run leader, Edwin Encarnacion from Seattle. Time for Falvine to get moving.

[RedBull34]

 

The Yankee just trade a 19-year old pitching prospect in the Gulf Coast League and got the American League home run leader, Edwin Encarnacion from Seattle. Time for Falvine to get moving.

This is exactly right.  Graterol is a massive over pay for Bumgarner, even 1 for 1.

 

Gordon and Cave/Wade sounds about right to me.

 

Happ cost the Yankees Drury and McKinney.

[ashbury]

This is exactly right.  Graterol is a massive over pay for Bumgarner, even 1 for 1.

Hasn't the opinion involving Graterol been in the context of Bumgarner and Will Smith in a package? Him plus a lesser prospect, for those two, give or take.

[drivlikejehu]

 

The Yankee just trade a 19-year old pitching prospect in the Gulf Coast League and got the American League home run leader, Edwin Encarnacion from Seattle. Time for Falvine to get moving.

 

The Twins have an 11-game lead and the Yankees are in 2nd place. The latter needs help now, the Twins need help for the playoffs. Big difference.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Hasn't the opinion involving Graterol been in the context of Bumgarner and Will Smith in a package? Him plus a lesser prospect, for those two, give or take.

I wouldn't give up Graterol for both (again, unless the FO has a much lower take on him than most media outlets).

 

If either Smith or MadBum had a year remaining, I could see Graterol+ but Brusdar is a 50-ish prospect on several prospects lists this season. Given the plummeting price of rental players, it shouldn't take a headliner like that to get a decent pitcher or two.

[terrydactyls]

The Twins have an 11-game lead and the Yankees are in 2nd place. The latter needs help now, the Twins need help for the playoffs. Big difference.

I guess my post wasn't clear. I meant that if all it took to get the home run leader was a Gulf Coast prospect, then maybe some relief help could be obtained as cheaply.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I guess my post wasn't clear. I meant that if all it took to get the home run leader was a Gulf Coast prospect, then maybe some relief help could be obtained as cheaply.

Even if it costs slightly more than that paltry sum, I’d pay it to get a good reliever today.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Even if it costs slightly more than that paltry sum, I’d pay it to get a good reliever today.

 

Yeah, but the Twins front office bears actual responsibility, so they can't do an overpay just to bring down your blood pressure a few weeks earlier.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Yeah, but the Twins front office bears actual responsibility, so they can't do an overpay just to bring down your blood pressure a few weeks earlier.

I'm not talking a massive overpay but a slight overpay on a reliever should not hamstring the organization because relievers just don't cost that much.

 

I mean, just look at what the Yankees paid for Encarnacion. If the team targeted a FA reliever, it should cost just one of any number of "decent but whatever" prospects the Twins have in their system (and they have a BUNCH of those guys).

 

And I trust this front office enough to properly evaluate their own prospects while another bad organization overvalues the same prospect.

 

This front office isn't the Astros but after they put together the 2019 squad, it's becoming more apparent they're working on a higher level than a lot of other franchises. It shouldn't be that hard to bamboozle somebody into taking a prospect this front office doesn't care that much about in the first place.

[terrydactyls]

I agree with Brock. My thinking is that you have Arraez and Gordon both looking to play 2B (which is where Polanco moves eventually) and Lewin Diaz and Lamonte Wade waiting in a very crowded OF/1B queue. See who wants some ready for MLB players for a good reliever. Losing all four in exchange for two good relievers (with some team control) would be a big win for the Twins.