I'm Yawning...

[snap4birds]

I think the Twins need a few 'stars'.  They have enough pieces to fill in if they have a couple ~5-6 WAR players.  I'd say Sano, Buxton, Berrios are the most likely, and Romero, Kiriloff, Lewis, Graterol on the horizon as possibles.  It was pretty much a wasted year for Sano & Buxton, so no one wants to put too much hope into those 2.  And hoping for any prospects to step up, after the struggles of Sano & Buxton, feels like waiting for the Great Pumpkin to show up.  And no team is going to trade a star for a package of prospects, unless you include 2 or 3 of the 4 I listed above, which would not make much sense for the Twins at this stage.

 

If you put 8 guys on the field and they're all ~2 WAR players, and your pitching staff isn't lights out, you're going to be hoping for a wild card spot, and drafting around 10-15.  Stuck in the middle.  I think the Twins have no choice but to do everything possible to get Sano & Buxton back on track.  If that fails, then Kiriloff and Lewis are their next focus.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Common sense and personal experience tell me so (I'm a die-hard fan of some sports, a fair-weather in others. You feel the "highs" and "lows" more acutely as a die-hard.)

 

I've never been to a Twins game that I didn't enjoy - even during seasons where they struggled mightily. I've also never watched or listened to a Twins game that I didn't enjoy. I love the game, I love the team. So, I guess I've never considered them a "bad product" (these are people we're talking about, by the way, not a defective toaster).

 

It's obviously your prerogative if you wish to no longer invest any more time/money on this team, although judging from your 26,000+ posts, you seem to have spent an awful lot of time on a "product" that's been mostly bad for the past 8 seasons. You do you, though. Me? I'll happily continue to support the team.   

 

all products are made and sold by people....entertainment is no different.

 

I do enjoy the ballpark experience, but I'm not going to pay for mlb.tv or any such things at this point...but I have no issue with others that want to give the Twins money. I've often wondered, though, if they sold out games, what would the incentive be to get better? The only way fans can encourage change is by not showing up....

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

all products are made and sold by people....entertainment is no different.

 

I do enjoy the ballpark experience, but I'm not going to pay for mlb.tv or any such things at this point...but I have no issue with others that want to give the Twins money. I've often wondered, though, if they sold out games, what would the incentive be to get better? The only way fans can encourage change is by not showing up....

 

I don't think anyone in professional sports - be they players, executives, owners, etc. - would get into their line of work without possessing some intrinsic desire to be the best. I certainly can't imagine any of them feeling disincentivized by seeing sell-out crowds.

 

The Red Sox yearly attendance is always around 3 million, even when their team has been a dysfunctional mess. Clearly, their incentive to get better had nothing to do with crowd sizes. The Packers have had stretches where they were pretty bad (zero playoff appearances from 1983-1992), yet they've never had trouble selling out games - and they still built a Super Bowl winner with Holmgren, Favre, Butler, White, etc. The sell-outs didn't disincentivize them from developing a championship-caliber team. And if not showing up does indeed encourage change, the Rays never got that particular memo.      

[KirbyDome89]

 

About six key players either horribly underperformed, were injured or out because they got caught cheating. Everybody was excited entering this season after their off-season moves except the Darvish or bust set and how did that turn out? The number one culprit in the pre deadline poor performance of this club is hands down the players.

FO acquisitions, and a lack thereof, contributed significantly to the overall poor performance. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yes, but you missed the point completely. The point is, why was sucking with no clear path to a good future considered acceptable just five years ago? People got their heads torn off for criticizing management in any way. What changed?

People are pissing and moaning about FO criticism now, I don't think that has changed much.

 

5 years ago was supposedly the early stages of a rebuild. It's easier to accept 90+ losses during year 1 or 2 than it is during year 5 or 6.  

[Doomtints]

 

People are pissing and moaning about FO criticism now, I don't think that has changed much.

 

5 years ago was supposedly the early stages of a rebuild. It's easier to accept 90+ losses during year 1 or 2 than it is during year 5 or 6.  

 

The Twins won't lose 90 games this year and they last lost 90 games when Terry Ryan was running things.

[Tomj14]

 

I disagree. The Twins had no foundation back then. Now they do. They have some pitchers who can pitch, they have some people who can play defense, they have a couple of people who can hit. At this point it's all a matter of filling in the gaps.

 

Last year the approach to filling in gaps was, "Let's beat Cleveland." This year they can focus on how to beat everybody. It will probably work out better.

Mauer, Morneau, Dozier, Perkins, Willingham, they signed Worley (25 year old pitcher at the time), Diamond, Pelfrey

And called up Hicks, Oswaldo, Pinto, Escobar, I would say this years pitching is better, but again, I say it is very similar.

 

The problem really is Jay, Stewart and Gonzo didn't turn out as planned or at least as quickly and weren't spun for other pieces. IMO

 

[Doomtints]

 

Mauer, Morneau, Dozier, Perkins, Willingham, they signed Worley (25 year old pitcher at the time), Diamond, Pelfrey

And called up Hicks, Oswaldo, Pinto, Escobar, I would say this years pitching is better, but again, I say it is very similar.

 

The problem really is Jay, Stewart and Gonzo didn't turn out as planned or at least as quickly and weren't spun for other pieces. IMO

 

Dozier debuted and grew up during this time, he wasn't a staple of the team nor were people expecting much from him. Morneau, well, we know how that played out. Worley is on the spectrum and the team didn't know how to handle that (too bad, how often do people give up on spectrumy people? Too often). Willingham was cooked and couldn't play defense.

[KirbyDome89]

 

The Twins won't lose 90 games this year and they last lost 90 games when Terry Ryan was running things.

Ok, 85+....

 

The point still stands.

[MABB1959]

1. I feel like we leave players in the minors way to long.

We don't have a DH or 1st base power hitter.

We don't have a consistent day in day out line-up

IMO they need to bring back Santana as a mentor for pitchers, especially the Latino pitchers.

They lose patience with some (Hicks, Sano, Buxton, Santana) and way to patient from others (Dozier, LoMo, Kepler, Gibson).

I can't think of any player that will be up for any awards this year.

Last but not least that always sticks in my head is the fact that they needed Target Field to be able to field a competitive team.  We have only had one since they moved.  Plenty more before that.

[ewen21]

 

November 29, 2012: Denard Span traded by the Minnesota Twins to the Washington Nationals for Alex Meyer.

December 6, 2012: Ben Revere traded by the Minnesota Twins to the Philadelphia Phillies for Trevor May and Vance Worley.

Tell me, how many years did it take for the Twins to field a team that could play outfield defense after this? How many games did the Twins lose while us fans watched routine balls drop in the outfield? Aaron Hicks was the only outfielder the Twins had who could play out there, and he looked completely lost at the plate. How did the pitching fare while the Twins waited for these pitching prospects to learn how to play? How many of the pitchers worked out as expected?

 

Team. Gutted. For. Years.

Trading Span and Revere amounts to gutting the team?  

 

[ewen21]

 

 

1. I feel like we leave players in the minors way to long.

That is simply not true.  The problem is we don't have enough players worthy of promotion.

[ewen21]

 

Worley is on the spectrum and the team didn't know how to handle that (too bad, how often do people give up on spectrumy people? Too often). 

WHat???

[MABB1959]

 

That is simply not true.  The problem is we don't have enough players worthy of promotion.

I think if Vargas would have been brought up sooner and given a chance he could have been good. 

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

I think if Vargas would have been brought up sooner and given a chance he could have been good. 

 

In 2019, it'll be interesting to see if Tyler Austin (a somewhat similar player) ends up getting that 500 at-bat opportunity Vargas never got.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think if Vargas would have been brought up sooner and given a chance he could have been good.

Sooner? Vargas was called up straight from AA. A chance? He did get 859 PA with the Twins. I'm not sure how much more a marginal 1B/DH prospect deserves. (FWIW, Vargas cleared waivers this spring too, suggesting that other teams share the Twins evaluation of him.)

[ND-Fan]

The Twins have been difficult to watch this year and how many games have they given away in the late innings. Also the club has been what i say basically non clutch meaning they seem to leave to many on and not getting a big play to keep you watching. Second the pace of the game with their pitchers just drive you crazy instead of watching normal game your watching a game that takes extra 1hr to complete and then they loose it in the end.

The 2019 year looks to be long year ahead with no exciting prospects coming to look forward to next year and team gutted of better players of this year there's nothing to look forward too. Buxton and Sano maybe could create some optimism next year but we won't know if they can live up to their billing coming up or we are just in for some more of the same. Starting pitching could be better next year on paper but we have been down that road before and if the Twins aren't in contention this front office will be selling again so we have three pitchers in their last year of team control what do expect. We will see Gibson, Ordorizzi, and Pineda all being traded at the deadline for prospects. We already see their plans in having Austin and Cave to be their additions for next years squad for 1st and outfield couple of players the Yankees just let go without getting anything in return and the Front Office thinks were going to buy that were going to be competitive with rest of baseball what a joke. i don't see us being able to sign any free agents of any quality they won't want to come to club in flux and rebuilding phase for several years. The other alternative is trade some our prospects for players ready to jump to major leagues but way baseball is now that will be costly trades and this Front Office has hard time giving any extra value away to get players so i doubt we will make a major trade where we get young star ready to play at major league level. This leaves with basically this club with few one year deal players to fill in for next year again and with hope they can play better so their record is good enough to draw some fans. They are lucky we play in weakest division in baseball so our record will not be the worst because if we played in NL central we have record like Baltimore. So yes its hard to get excited about baseball for next year and i don't think my mind will change until they start proving they can win consistently and here I have little faith because I don't think this Front Office will ever buy into this group of players so we always be sellers at the trade deadline and looking to the future. At some point they have start to make a stand and believe in what they have put together in the beginning but I think this is what's wrong with this front office. 

[MABB1959]

 

Sooner? Vargas was called up straight from AA. A chance? He did get 859 PA with the Twins. I'm not sure how much more a marginal 1B/DH prospect deserves. (FWIW, Vargas cleared waivers this spring too, suggesting that other teams share the Twins evaluation of him.)

He never got a chance to play consistently.  Why did they let him go and then get him back?

[Otto von Ballpark]

He never got a chance to play consistently. Why did they let him go and then get him back?

There are certainly some strong AAA players who don't get enough of a chance in MLB, but there is no evidence suggesting Vargas is among that group. Vargas has a career .789 OPS at AAA, in 1297 PA, ages 24-27. 859 MLB PA during that time seems plenty reasonable, and his .748 OPS in MLB is pretty much exactly what you would expect from him too. And it is pretty close to replacement level for a MLB 1B/DH.

 

There are worse ways to fill out your AAA roster, though, so the Twins tried twice to get him through waivers this past spring and succeeded the second time.

[yarnivek1972]

There are certainly some strong AAA players who don't get enough of a chance in MLB, but there is no evidence suggesting Vargas is among that group. Vargas has a career .789 OPS at AAA, in 1297 PA, ages 24-27. 859 MLB PA during that time seems plenty reasonable, and his .748 OPS in MLB is pretty much exactly what you would expect from him too. And it is pretty close to replacement level for a MLB 1B/DH.

 

There are worse ways to fill out your AAA roster, though, so the Twins tried twice to get him through waivers this past spring and succeeded the second time.

Exactly. The Twins don’t think he’s a major leaguer. And apparently no one else does either.

[wabene]

 

FO acquisitions, and a lack thereof, contributed significantly to the overall poor performance. 

They signed something like six guys. More than was expected. Addison Reed was considered a top five reliever. People were excited. Lots of disappointing performances followed. I think most of us were pleasantly surprised with the FO's activity level with the only caveat being that it wasn't super splashy, that we didn't get Darvish. I personally didn't want Darvish for what he signed for. Why? Because free agency is a huge crap shoot.

[Doomtints]

 

Ok, 85+....

 

The point still stands.

 

They lost 84 games.

[laloesch]

 

It's up to the Front Office to stop the yawning. One key acquisition won't be enough. But two or three will start to move the needle, given that a somewhat solid base of contributors is on board. I'm looking for FalVine to do something impressive, rather than merely setting up infrastructure.

 

I agree I fear it's gonna take multiple acquisitions unfortunately, possibly another hard rebuild...cringes. This team needs so many pieces especially with Sano and Buxton in doubt. If those two had progressed this year as everyone had hoped i think it would have answered some of those questions as well as making this team that much closer to competitive.  

[howeda7]

 

It's up to the Front Office to stop the yawning. One key acquisition won't be enough. But two or three will start to move the needle, given that a somewhat solid base of contributors is on board. I'm looking for FalVine to do something impressive, rather than merely setting up infrastructure.

Yep. They have $50 + million to spend. They should be able to make some real moves that generate excitement for next season. If they don't, it's on them and the clock will be ticking. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

They lost 84 games.

You read the OP right? I mean you must've since you quoted it. The number of loses doesn't change the sentiment of that OP. It's a losing season....

 

I'm glad you can count though....

[RaymondLuxuryYacht]

 

You know this how? There is no good reason to spend money on bad products. Or time.

You don't decide how I spend my money or my time.

[mikelink45]

Is the FO listening?  Is ownership alert?  Does the team realize that they need the fans?  When we talk about leadership the FO is supposed to lead both the teams and the fans.  Arrogance says the fans do not have a say, fans attendance speaks to satisfaction. 

Come on FO - give us something to grab on to. 

[Mike Sixel]

You don't decide how I spend my money or my time.

I believe I was told good fans spend money, no matter what.....

[ND-Fan]

I read above the Twins have 50 million to spend next year and fact is they don't if they are not competitive team. If they put team out there that they have now from their roster less Mauer, Santana , and Forsythe for this coming season what will there draw be for fans to come watch them. Their leading stars now are Rosario, Berios, and toss up Kepler, Cave, and Gibson. Sano and Buxton will need to prove themselves next year and that will take time win fans back. Season ticket sales are going to drop significantly I predict this coming year. So getting back to money available to spend if the Twins drop say from their 2.4 million attendance to say 1.7 attendance your looking at least 700,000 drop in attendance which would probably mean at least 35 million drop in revenue. So you see now were looking at only 15 million to spend and we have lot of holes to fill in this team and no sure star power to attract people  to baseball. Also poorer team will have effect on tv revenue too. Twins ownership will want to keep their return the same so you see money may not be there for what most fans think. If I have learned anything over the years is ownership never takes less it either comes out the players return or the final product the fans see on the field. Baseball ownership is always paid and they like to have high rates of return and also to have their ownership value inflate as well very rarely does ownership ever use there own money to supplement the business. 

The fact is were in second time of rebuilding because we have had failure to develop high prospects into major league all stars like they were sold to us when they were prospects in the minors. The plans that were made two years ago and even before that have failed with this group of players. Were heading into next year with hope these players can turn it around or were going to see plan change to the next wave of players to come from our prospect list. This means we will see the trading of number of this team by next years trading dead line if no progress has been made. We could see Gibson, Ordorizzi, Pineda, Castro, and several other players traded for future prospects before next season is done.  The only thing that will keep them from having season of disastrous losses is the this division is so weak and with unbalanced schedule they are certain to stay away from this.  I will just be curios what public opinion will be if my prediction comes true from above because I don't think most MN believe this team is that bad.

[Doomtints]

 

You read the OP right? I mean you must've since you quoted it. The number of loses doesn't change the sentiment of that OP. It's a losing season....

 

I'm glad you can count though....

 

I'm responding to your post that because the Twins had 90+ losses this justified you being triggered. When it was pointed out that the Twins weren't going to lose 90, you said 85 then. They didn't lose 85 either.

 

The Twins only dropped 7 games from last season. What really happened?

 

OPS+ 2017/2018: 104/95

ERA+ 2017/2018: 97/98

 

The pitching stayed roughly the same compared to the rest of the league and the hitting got a lot worse. We already know why the hitting got worse:

 

Buxton

Sano

Mauer

Dozier

Polanco

Castro

Morrison

 

Only one of those players was picked up during the offseason, and ZERO of us expected all of these players to take a nosedive (or be out, in Polanco's case).

 

The only person who can truly be blamed for 2018 is Molitor. It's his job to figure out how to get the best out of the players. This isn't the first year under Molitor that the hitting took an unexpected dive.