I'm Yawning...

[yarnivek1972]

You are consistently against both signing high dollar free agents, and acquiring high value players through trade.

 

How do the Twins get better?

 

I bet neither the Milwaukee fans nor the front office regret acquiring Yelich last winter, even though it cost them their number one prospect (who, btw, put up a .199/.240/.338 line as a 24 yr old for Miami this year).

 

Yelich will be a Brewer for at least the next 3 seasons, and they won the NLC this year, coming off a season not unlike the Twins 2017. Furthermore, they didn't stop with that acquisition.

 

What they DIDN'T do was dabble around the edges, poke their little toe gingerly into the trade and/or free agent markets, and convince themselves that holding on to every prospect for dear life has some sort of guarantee of future success.

 

I think the biggest step the Minnesota Twins need to take as an organization is for everyone, from ownership on down, to stop viewing themselves as somehow disadvantaged, or "mid-market," or a place free agents don't want to go, or a team that needs to "draft and develop."

 

That's self defeating.

 

Get out there and play the game the way other teams are playing it, or sell the team to someone who will.

 

I have a problem with that. No matter what else the Twins do, they still have to draft and develop players well. That’s how an organization builds sustained success. The better a team is at developing their own (cheap) talent, the better. They will need fewer free agents and they will have the bargaining chipsto trade when the need arises.

 

The problem with the Twins is that not only have they been bad at making trades and FA signings the past 10 years, their drafting and development hasn’t supplied an adequate number of players to either put on the field or use as trade chips. That’s largely why people from the previous regime are being swept away.

[USAFChief]

 

I have a problem with that. No matter what else the Twins do, they still have to draft and develop players well. That’s how an organization builds sustained success. The better a team is at developing their own (cheap) talent, the better. They will need fewer free agents and they will have the bargaining chipsto trade when the need arises.

The problem with the Twins is that not only have they been bad at making trades and FA signings the past 10 years, their drafting and development hasn’t supplied an adequate number of players to either put on the field or use as trade chips. That’s largely why people from the previous regime are being swept away.

Poor choice of words on my part, what I meant was "exclusively draft and develop."

 

I want them to legitimately contend for the highest level of free agents regularly, and be willing to make expensive trades. 

 

Spend like a drunken sailor on international free agents, too, while I'm at it.

 

All in addition to being a team that drafts and develops well.

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

They will need fewer free agents and they will have the bargaining chips to trade when the need arises.

The thing is, that need has arrived. Berrios, Sano, and co. are starting to reach arbitration so it's kind of s*** or get off the pot time in terms of what direction this team is going. They either need to commit to bringing in MLB ready talent around these guys or look to move some of them and reset. This organization can't keep treading water. 

 

I know you're not saying this, but there's this notion on TD that the Twins shouldn't be moving prospects until they're a winning team. I'm not sure how we can expect to build a consistent winner without acquiring proven MLB talent, especially when we've seen firsthand how hit & miss prospects can be. 

[mlhouse]

I think it is ok to be frustrated about the entire thing.  

 

Although nothing is a certainty, it does look like the first wave of prospects in this rebuild have been a flop.

 

Of the Sano-Buxton-Rosario-Kepler-Berrios-Polanco group, only Rosario has proven themselves after several years in the league.   What looked promising in 2015, after 4 years and losing 383 games, has all but collapsed, and with the exceptions of Rosario and Berrios, significant questions remain and I think that Sano-Buxton-Kepler, and perhaps Polanco, are on their last chance.

 

Then, when you look at what stands behind this group, with some exceptions the immediate cupboard is basically bare.  If you get a chance, look at the positional players that were at our AAA team in Rochester this past season.  Once you peruse the stats, ask yourself if you could put together a worse group of players if that was your objective.

 

Almost all of our talent in this system is at a minor league level below AA.  So, this means we either need to continue the mediocre path we are on, or try something different.  AS most know, I am a try something different guy (although my plan is just rebuilding baseball 101). 

 

Firing Molitor I think is the first step.  In my opinion he wasn't fired because he was a bad manager or bad guy, he just simply isnt the type of manager the Twins need (nor was Ron Gardenhire before him).   

 

The next step is committing to the new group of young players and using that as the core of rebuilding.  Maybe some of the question marks can be salvaged, like Buxton or Sano, and work within this next group which would be great considering htey are still younger players.  But the committment needs to be made.  Nobody can be satisfied watching them lose with the Taylor Motters. Matt Belisle, and Bobby Wilsons of the world. Instead, lets lose for purpose with the Lewis, Rooker, Kirilloff, Gordons, Romeros, and others and develop this team into a contender.

[yarnivek1972]

The thing is, that need has arrived. Berrios, Sano, and co. are starting to reach arbitration so it's kind of s*** or get off the pot time in terms of what direction this team is going. They either need to commit to bringing in MLB ready talent around these guys or look to move some of them and reset. This organization can't keep treading water.

 

I know you're not saying this, but there's this notion on TD that the Twins shouldn't be moving prospects until they're a winning team. I'm not sure how we can expect to build a consistent winner without acquiring proven MLB talent, especially when we've seen firsthand how hit & miss prospects can be.

 

Right now I’m not sure the Twins have enough top level prospects to entice anyone to give up the caliber of players the Twins need. You have to start somewhere, I suppose, but there also has to be a willing partner to trade.

[Major League Ready]

 

You are consistently against both signing high dollar free agents, and acquiring high value players through trade.

 

How do the Twins get better?

 

I bet neither the Milwaukee fans nor the front office regret acquiring Yelich last winter, even though it cost them their number one prospect (who, btw, put up a .199/.240/.338 line as a 24 yr old for Miami this year).

 

Yelich will be a Brewer for at least the next 3 seasons, and they won the NLC this year, coming off a season not unlike the Twins 2017. Furthermore, they didn't stop with that acquisition.

 

What they DIDN'T do was dabble around the edges, poke their little toe gingerly into the trade and/or free agent markets, and convince themselves that holding on to every prospect for dear life has some sort of guarantee of future success.

 

I think the biggest step the Minnesota Twins need to take as an organization is for everyone, from ownership on down, to stop viewing themselves as somehow disadvantaged, or "mid-market," or a place free agents don't want to go, or a team that needs to "draft and develop."

 

That's self defeating.

 

Get out there and play the game the way other teams are playing it, or sell the team to someone who will.

 

You are changing the narrative. I asked Kirby for specifics on what the FO should have done differently. Anyone can say their plan sucked. It’s an entirely different thing to construct and articulate a plan that is reasonable financially and/or reasonable in terms of the cost in prospects. Fans want free agents that don’t exist and assume to be able to trade “depth” for elite players.

 

The fact is that the success of this team depended upon Sano, Buxton, and probably Polanco realizing the potential / level of play we have seen in spirts. The alternative was to conclude the team did not have the core players and go into a full rebuild. That would not have demonstrated good management practices or an understanding of risk/reward. There was little risk associated with giving them another year and the reward potentially high.

 

Competing for the division was also going to require Dozier and Santana to play at or near their best. Odorizzi, Lynn, and Morrison improved our chances without sacrificing our future. The plan was reasonably good. Sano and Buxton did not deliver. Dozier sucked and Polanco got himself suspended and Santana contributed nothing. Fans won’t players for their absolute abysmal performance they squak about the FO.

 

I am not opposed to trading meaningful prospects. I have been opposed to trading them in recent years because I have never believed the core was established. All we would have done was get mediocre while trading away players that could provide the core like the Astros and Indians built via drafting, development, and trades for players before they emerged as elite. Many here wanted us to trade prospects for players like Tulo, LuCroy, Gray, etc because they insisted we were ready to compete. We would have significantly reduced our talent long-term for very modest short-term gains during years where those players would have not gotten us remotely close to contention. I would be absolutely fine with trading key prospects for a player that actually contributes significantly to a true contender. You are willing to trade away the possibility of building a contender to build a 500 team or slightly better. I am not.

 

My aversion to Free Agents is a matter of the number of years past their prime that was common just 2-3 years ago. The entire league apparently agrees with me because those practices have changed rapidly. I also recognize the scarcity of free agents and the difficulty of convincing them to come to Minnesota. I also recognize there are other teams that simply have much greater financial resources. So, while you say it’s an excuse, I say it is economic reality. It’s a bid for god sake. How can anyone be surprised the teams with the most money win these bids?

 

How do we get better. Identify talent like Kluber, Bauer, Carlos Carrasco, Clevinger, and trade for them  while their acquisition cost is modest. Identify and sign guys like Rameriz for $50K instead of giving Sano all or most of your International pool ($4M). Then, sign him to a team friendly option as they did with Carrasco.

 

Draft like Houston. Then add a guy like Verlander when your core is established.

[USAFChief]

 

You are changing the narrative. I asked ... for specifics...

 

...

 

How do we get better. Identify talent like Kluber, Bauer, Carlos Carrasco, Clevinger, and trade for them  while their acquisition cost is modest. Identify and sign guys like Rameriz for $50K instead of giving Sano all or most of your International pool ($4M). Then, sign him to a team friendly option as they did with Carrasco.

 

Draft like Houston.  

Specifics please.

 

Name the talent we should pilfer from other organizations by trading for before their GM realizes what he has. How do we get the top pick for a couple years in a row, without tanking now and putting off contending for another half decade...and hope, btw, that we really HAVE "drafted like Houston."

 

 Because that sounds good, but it's not a plan. It's "hope to get lucky," It's no different than any "we'll get what we need from the minors" blueprint.

 

And I don't want the Twins to operate that way. Or at least not only that way. Nothing prevents them from doing everything you've said, and still adding quality, front line major league talent, right now. 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

This is an off-season for aggression, but reckless aggression is a bad thing. You shouldn't always be chasing the playoffs, sometimes you have to reload assets too.

 

Wisely the Twins did that at the deadline, now is the time to spend cash and trade collateral. This team can be back in the hunt next year and has the means to do so.

[Vanimal46]

This is an off-season for aggression, but reckless aggression is a bad thing. You shouldn't always be chasing the playoffs, sometimes you have to reload assets too.

 

Wisely the Twins did that at the deadline, now is the time to spend cash and trade collateral. This team can be back in the hunt next year and has the means to do so.

Agreed. I think there will be good value and rebound plays to make in FA. I'm intrigued with several RP names available, and will argue over the winter they need at least 3 bullpen signings.

 

If flexibility is what you want there's a few names available for signing too. And high end options of course. There's a lot of ways they can go, and I hope they make a legitimate attempt at everything.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Right now I’m not sure the Twins have enough top level prospects to entice anyone to give up the caliber of players the Twins need. You have to start somewhere, I suppose, but there also has to be a willing partner to trade.

Meh, I think they could definitely build a package around Lewis and probably Kiriloff after the season he had. That isn't an ideal scenario by any stretch, but if opportunity arose I think the Twins have enough ammo to get a deal done. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

You are changing the narrative. I asked Kirby for specifics on what the FO should have done differently. Anyone can say their plan sucked. It’s an entirely different thing to construct and articulate a plan that is reasonable financially and/or reasonable in terms of the cost in prospects. Fans want free agents that don’t exist and assume to be able to trade “depth” for elite players.

 

 

How do we get better. Identify talent like Kluber, Bauer, Carlos Carrasco, Clevinger, and trade for them  while their acquisition cost is modest. Identify and sign guys like Rameriz for $50K instead of giving Sano all or most of your International pool ($4M). Then, sign him to a team friendly option as they did with Carrasco.

 

Draft like Houston. Then add a guy like Verlander when your core is established.

To be clear:

Trade for a minor league pitcher who becomes a perennial Cy Young candidate.

Sign a 17 year old from the Dominican who turns into an MVP candidate.

Pick at or very near the top of multiple drafts and hit on guys like Bregman, Correa, Bauer, Springer

Draft another Cy Young winner in the 7th round.

Then when you've checked off all those boxes trade for a generational pitcher "like," Verlander. 

 

I don't see any specifics listed here, it's just unrealistic expectations..... 

[Major League Ready]

 

To be clear:

Trade for a minor league pitcher who becomes a perennial Cy Young candidate.

Sign a 17 year old from the Dominican who turns into an MVP candidate.

Pick at or very near the top of multiple drafts and hit on guys like Bregman, Correa, Bauer, Springer

Draft another Cy Young winner in the 7th round.

Then when you've checked off all those boxes trade for a generational pitcher "like," Verlander. 

 

I don't see any specifics listed here, it's just unrealistic expectations..... 

 

You have a response to everything but continue to refuse to respond when any specifics as to to what they could have realistically done or should have done to avoid the failure of 2018. say nothing when asked what they should have done.

 

They did not need to pick at the very top. They needed to pick well like Houston or Boston. Kirilloff was the 15th pick. They could have taken Benindendi instead of Jay and they could have taken Nola instead of Gordon. You make it seem impossible to trade for players in the low minors who become great. That basically how Cleveland got their entire staff.

 

Yes, I am saying get better at identifying international prospects. You want instant gratification. Building a winner in a mid-market like Cleveland has is the product of crafting and implementing best practices and processes. You and Chief can scream show me the results all you want. You simply do not understand the results are directly related to leadership, process, and practices that were not in place previously. I don't know that they are know without complete access but it appears from the outside looking in that Levine is building the requisite infrastructure.

[TheLeviathan]

Well, my top priorities last year were Gerrit Cole and Alex Cobb. I think Houston's return was beatable and second half Cobb shows that maybe having him in ST might have netted a stud.

 

Add two bonafide starters to Gibson and Berrios might have changed the whole complexion.

 

And it was very doable.

[KGB]

Maybe finding a gem like Dereck Rodriguez instead of losing him would be a step in the right direction.

[yarnivek1972]

Well, my top priorities last year were Gerrit Cole and Alex Cobb. I think Houston's return was beatable and second half Cobb shows that maybe having him in ST might have netted a stud.

 

Add two bonafide starters to Gibson and Berrios might have changed the whole complexion.

 

And it was very doable.

Not with the pitiful offense this team produced in 2018. Sandy Koufax wouldn’t have been enough.

[RaymondLuxuryYacht]

 

I believe I was told good fans spend money, no matter what.....

I don't know anything about good fans nor would I be arrogant enough to use such a phrase…

 

nor do I know anything about what you believe you were told...

 

my comment was disputing you when you said "There is no good reason to spend money on bad products. Or time." …

 

Maybe you have no reason, but you only speak for yourself...

 

I only speak for myself, as well...

 

and I have good reason to spend money and time on this product...

[USAFChief]

 

Well, my top priorities last year were Gerrit Cole and Alex Cobb. I think Houston's return was beatable and second half Cobb shows that maybe having him in ST might have netted a stud.

Add two bonafide starters to Gibson and Berrios might have changed the whole complexion.

And it was very doable.

Gerrit Cole is the perfect example of the type of trades I want the Twins to be making, whenever they can. 

 

Try to end up with difference makers, not roster fillers.

 

[Vanimal46]

Well, my top priorities last year were Gerrit Cole and Alex Cobb. I think Houston's return was beatable and second half Cobb shows that maybe having him in ST might have netted a stud.

 

Add two bonafide starters to Gibson and Berrios might have changed the whole complexion.

 

And it was very doable.

Yep, Houston's offer was very beatable for Cole. He was my man crush last season... And he did not disappoint moving to a new league.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Not with the pitiful offense this team produced in 2018. Sandy Koufax wouldn’t have been enough.

 

Well, worst case scenario you had better assets to move at the deadline.  You could've bought Cobb for the price of Lynn and LoMo earlier in the offseason.

 

And Cole would've made little, if any, meaningful dent in our prospect pipeline to acquire.  There was only upside to be had with those guys.

 

I'm not sure who those players will be again this year, but here is a short list of names I'd call about:

 

3B Jake Lamb (Might be a buy-low option on a team about to blow up in a rebuild.  I'd ask about Grienke too)

 

IF Jurickson Profar 

 

SP Marcus Stroman

 

And I get a price tag for Wheeler, Degrom, and Syndergaard.  Maybe they're too pricey, but I'd at least check.

[KirbyDome89]

 

You have a response to everything but continue to refuse to respond when any specifics as to to what they could have realistically done or should have done to avoid the failure of 2018. say nothing when asked what they should have done.

 

They did not need to pick at the very top. They needed to pick well like Houston or Boston. Kirilloff was the 15th pick. They could have taken Benindendi instead of Jay and they could have taken Nola instead of Gordon. You make it seem impossible to trade for players in the low minors who become great. That basically how Cleveland got their entire staff.

 

Yes, I am saying get better at identifying international prospects. You want instant gratification. Building a winner in a mid-market like Cleveland has is the product of crafting and implementing best practices and processes. You and Chief can scream show me the results all you want. You simply do not understand the results are directly related to leadership, process, and practices that were not in place previously. I don't know that they are know without complete access but it appears from the outside looking in that Levine is building the requisite infrastructure.

Naw, I've reiterated what I would've done to strengthen the team ad nauseam. Whether you choose to acknowledge that is up to you. 

 

It's obviously not impossible, but if you're expecting to match Cleveland's success my guess is you'll be sorely disappointed. 

 

No, what I want is for the current talent on the major league roster to be supplemented with other high quality major league talent. The Twins are devoid of good players; the organization is wasting cost controlled years of the current core if they aren't actively trying to get better. Chief already pointed out that there's literally no reason the FO can't be implementing their own processes while simultaneously adding to this roster. I understand that the poor results are a lack of production that starts with the FO and moves all the way down to the playing field. Part of the solution to the problem is filling in holes with individuals better suited to produce positive results, hence the new manager and likely (hopefully) other new faces on the field. 

[Major League Ready]

 

Naw, I've reiterated what I would've done to strengthen the team ad nauseam. Whether you choose to acknowledge that is up to you. 

 

It's obviously not impossible, but if you're expecting to match Cleveland's success my guess is you'll be sorely disappointed. 

 

No, what I want is for the current talent on the major league roster to be supplemented with other high quality major league talent. The Twins are devoid of good players; the organization is wasting cost controlled years of the current core if they aren't actively trying to get better. Chief already pointed out that there's literally no reason the FO can't be implementing their own processes while simultaneously adding to this roster. I understand that the poor results are a lack of production that starts with the FO and moves all the way down to the playing field. Part of the solution to the problem is filling in holes with individuals better suited to produce positive results, hence the new manager and likely (hopefully) other new faces on the field. 

 

What core? Two weeks ago the conversation was that the current roster was a disaster. Now we are wasting our core? The Twins top 4 position players in WAR were Rosario / Kepler / Escobar & Dozier with a combined WAR of 9.4. Two of them were free agents this year. Cleveland’s top 4 had a combined WAR of 21.3. Of course, where Cleveland’s core is immensely better than the Twins is starting pitching. Our top 4 SPs had a WAR of 8.8. Cleveland’s top 4 had a WAR of 21.3.

 

We have one very good but not elite SP. We have one BP guy (Rogers) that emerged this year. Rosario was our best position player and he is not a guy I want to rely on in the playoffs or in general for that matter. He might have the worst plate discipline in the league. Our 2nd best position player was Kepler who is an average player that still could improve. Beyond that we have a bunch of question marks. What core. To trade away key assets building around this core would be the height of incompetence.

 

I must have missed the post where you provided specific free agents and trade candidates with their salaries and prospects required to acquire them. Just give the numbers of the post(s) and I will sincerely apologize for suggesting your complaint regarding the approach the team took was the typical ramblings of fans that think this is fantasy baseball and they can just go get any player they want in free agency or trade depth for superstars. Let’s not waist any more time on this. Give the post numbers with the specifics.

[KirbyDome89]

**Aren't devoid of good players

[KirbyDome89]

 

What core? Two weeks ago the conversation was that the current roster was a disaster. Now we are wasting our core? The Twins top 4 position players in WAR were Rosario / Kepler / Escobar & Dozier with a combined WAR of 9.4. Two of them were free agents this year. Cleveland’s top 4 had a combined WAR of 21.3. Of course, where Cleveland’s core is immensely better than the Twins is starting pitching. Our top 4 SPs had a WAR of 8.8. Cleveland’s top 4 had a WAR of 21.3.

 

We have one very good but not elite SP. We have one BP guy (Rogers) that emerged this year. Rosario was our best position player and he is not a guy I want to rely on in the playoffs or in general for that matter. He might have the worst plate discipline in the league. Our 2nd best position player was Kepler who is an average player that still could improve. Beyond that we have a bunch of question marks. What core. To trade away key assets building around this core would be the height of incompetence.

 

I must have missed the post where you provided specific free agents and trade candidates with their salaries and prospects required to acquire them. Just give the numbers of the post(s) and I will sincerely apologize for suggesting your complaint regarding the approach the team took was the typical ramblings of fans that think this is fantasy baseball and they can just go get any player they want in free agency or trade depth for superstars. Let’s not waist any more time on this. Give the post numbers with the specifics.

Berrios, Rosario and Polanco don't look promising? Kepler doesn't look like he can be a solid corner OFer? Have you thrown in the towel on Buxton and Sano? Some of those names might be included in trade packages, and others might fall off, but right now that's a good group of young, cost controlled players to add pieces too. I missed the posts calling the entire roster a disaster. There certainly are holes and some are more glaring than others. FWIW Dozier finished 11th on the team in fWAR, behind Polanco, Garver, and Cave....

 

All of those players were highly regarded minor leaguers at one point. If the Twins are never willing to "trade key assets," then you're asking them to hit on an unreasonably high number of draft picks all within a few years of each other in order to field a team capable of competing. I'll pass on those odds. 

 

Just stop for a moment and consider what you're saying. Moving marginal prospects to solidify backup OF and C positions as well as adding better bullpen arms is "fantasy baseball," but "draft like Houston," "trade for a Kluber & Carrasco while they're in the minors," and "trade for a pitcher like Verlander," is somehow practical? One can be reasonably accomplished, the other is a pipe dream. 

[Major League Ready]

 

Berrios, Rosario and Polanco don't look promising? Kepler doesn't look like he can be a solid corner OFer? Have you thrown in the towel on Buxton and Sano? Some of those names might be included in trade packages, and others might fall off, but right now that's a good group of young, cost controlled players to add pieces too. I missed the posts calling the entire roster a disaster. There certainly are holes and some are more glaring than others. FWIW Dozier finished 11th on the team in fWAR, behind Polanco, Garver, and Cave....

 

All of those players were highly regarded minor leaguers at one point. If the Twins are never willing to "trade key assets," then you're asking them to hit on an unreasonably high number of draft picks all within a few years of each other in order to field a team capable of competing. I'll pass on those odds. 

 

Just stop for a moment and consider what you're saying. Moving marginal prospects to solidify backup OF and C positions as well as adding better bullpen arms is "fantasy baseball," but "draft like Houston," "trade for a Kluber & Carrasco while they're in the minors," and "trade for a pitcher like Verlander," is somehow practical? One can be reasonably accomplished, the other is a pipe dream. 

 

I noticed you still have not provided the post number(s) where you specified players and cost. Does it or does it not exist?

 

Sure those players have promise and no I have not thrown in the towel. That is an entirely different frame of mine from trading top prospects in the hope the guys that have not yet shown after 3 years that they can play with any consistency. I am not sure that's what you are suggesting because you refuse to respond with any specificity. However, I can only assume you are suggesting trading away most of our best prospects because that's what it would take to get the type of players we need to actually become contenders.

 

I would done very similar to what the F/O did last year, add without levering the future. Had Buxton and Sano proved themselves last year, we still would not have contended in a meaningful way but we would be in great shape this year with salaries coming off the books. Had they made this step forward it might have even made sense to trade some of our better prospects this off-season. However, the core of this team as compared to Houston, Boston, NY, and Cleveland is not in the same stratosphere and to bet the future with such a large gap and depending on massive improvement from multiple players would have been gross incompetence. 

 

DO the posts exist where you say you provided specific players and cost or are you simply refusing to admit that you were complaining about the incompetence of the FO when you know there really was no realistic plan to put a contender on the field given the injuries to Saantana and Castro, the Polanco suspension, and poor play from several players?

[KirbyDome89]

 

I noticed you still have not provided the post number(s) where you specified players and cost. Does it or does it not exist?

 

Sure those players have promise and no I have not thrown in the towel. That is an entirely different frame of mine from trading top prospects in the hope the guys that have not yet shown after 3 years that they can play with any consistency. I am not sure that's what you are suggesting because you refuse to respond with any specificity. However, I can only assume you are suggesting trading away most of our best prospects because that's what it would take to get the type of players we need to actually become contenders.

 

I would done very similar to what the F/O did last year, add without levering the future. Had Buxton and Sano proved themselves last year, we still would not have contended in a meaningful way but we would be in great shape this year with salaries coming off the books. Had they made this step forward it might have even made sense to trade some of our better prospects this off-season. However, the core of this team as compared to Houston, Boston, NY, and Cleveland is not in the same stratosphere and to bet the future with such a large gap and depending on massive improvement from multiple players would have been gross incompetence. 

 

DO the posts exist where you say you provided specific players and cost or are you simply refusing to admit that you were complaining about the incompetence of the FO when you know there really was no realistic plan to put a contender on the field given the injuries to Saantana and Castro, the Polanco suspension, and poor play from several players?

I'm not sure if it's selective understanding, reading, or some combination of both at play here. Again, I've already stated what I thought this team could've done prior to the beginning of last season to compete within the division. Salary numbers and names are irrelevant. We're dealing in hypothetical scenarios here. Your insistence on "specifics," is a straw man. It doesn't invalidate any part of how those weaknesses could've been addressed. Like I said before, if you need names feel free to dig through 40 man rosters and to find a 4th OFer, C, and a few bullpen arms. It's comical that you're demanding "specificity," from others and at the same time your solution is "draft like Houston and trade for talent like Cleveland." 

 

It's no secret that the Twins aren't on the level of Houston, Boston, or NY. It wasn't that long ago that Buxton and Sano headlined a farm system that was one of, if not the best, in baseball. We've seen firsthand how inconsistent prospect development can be. Why should this team rely solely on Royce Lewis & co. to all hit the ground running a few years from now? I'll also reiterate, in the hopes that this time it sinks in, that none of what I suggested the Twins do prior to the season would've required giving up high level prospects. Those teams you listed above didn't get better by simply waiting for prospects to reach the major league level. They all moved young players for proven talent. Part of getting to that "stratosphere," requires making similar moves. 

 

If it bothers you that posters question decisions made by the Twins organization then a forum probably isn't the best place to frequent.

[Major League Ready]

 

I'm not sure if it's selective understanding, reading, or some combination of both at play here. Again, I've already stated what I thought this team could've done prior to the beginning of last season to compete within the division. Salary numbers and names are irrelevant. We're dealing in hypothetical scenarios here. Your insistence on "specifics," is a straw man. It doesn't invalidate any part of how those weaknesses could've been addressed. Like I said before, if you need names feel free to dig through 40 man rosters and to find a 4th OFer, C, and a few bullpen arms. It's comical that you're demanding "specificity," from others and at the same time your solution is "draft like Houston and trade for talent like Cleveland." 

 

It's no secret that the Twins aren't on the level of Houston, Boston, or NY. It wasn't that long ago that Buxton and Sano headlined a farm system that was one of, if not the best, in baseball. We've seen firsthand how inconsistent prospect development can be. Why should this team rely solely on Royce Lewis & co. to all hit the ground running a few years from now? I'll also reiterate, in the hopes that this time it sinks in, that none of what I suggested the Twins do prior to the season would've required giving up high level prospects. Those teams you listed above didn't get better by simply waiting for prospects to reach the major league level. They all moved young players for proven talent. Part of getting to that "stratosphere," requires making similar moves. 

 

If it bothers you that posters question decisions made by the Twins organization then a forum probably isn't the best place to frequent.

 

Let’s start with the suggestion this is a strawman argument. My argument is based on your post that the FO could have done much better last off-season. Is this not your belief? Asking for specifics is anything but a strawman argument. Unless you provide specifics, we can’t possibly measure the relative merit or impact of what you are suggesting. There are also many cases where fan insist on solutions that are not really available. You need to demonstrate viable solutions were available and at least estimate the impact. For example, had the signed a different catcher, what could have we anticipated in terms of WAR, for example. The Twins needed to improve by 14 games to win the division. I would love to see the transactions that would have gotten us to that point.

 

Why do you ask “Why should this team rely solely on Royce Lewis & co. to all hit the ground running a few years from now”? How did you possibly conclude this is my position? That would be a good example of a strawman. This argument can only be made while conveniently  ignoring most of what I wrote given we have been debating the merit of savvy trades, usage of international bonus pool, drafting and development, as well as free agent signings. I also framed my position with two elements. One is that the context was top prospects as opposed to "Royce Lewis". The other is the timing of trading top prospects. GMs don't trade top prospects until they have a proven core in place. Our core is not only unproven, they are quite suspect. It's ironic that you highlight the risk of prospects and then insist that it's a sound strategy to make long-term decision based on the assumption the current suspects are all going to emerge. That is anything but sound management practice, especially given they would need to emerge as superstar in order for us to contend.

 

BTW … If you don’t include cost, we can’t possibly determine if the solution is feasible. The statement that costs are not relevant is extremely naïve.

 

Draft like Houston was meant conceptually not literally tank and get several #1 and #2 picks. It means draft well. Mid-market teams must draft well that is no secret. The previous regime missed on some extremely important picks. How much better would last season and our future been had they taken Benintendi and Nola. I can’t blame them too much for Rodriguez but these are the decisions that you have to get right to contend with teams that have made great personnel decisions and have bigger budgets.

 

Trade like Cleveland does not literally mean go out acquire an entire staff of SPs as prospects and trade relatively little to get them. I would guess they believe some of the deadline acquisitions have this potential. Just one such acquisition is big. The success of teams outside the top revenue producers requires effective identification of potential and some savvy trades to acquire players that develop exceptionally well. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Let’s start with the suggestion this is a strawman argument. My argument is based on your post that the FO could have done much better last off-season. Is this not your belief? Asking for specifics is anything but a strawman argument. Unless you provide specifics, we can’t possibly measure the relative merit or impact of what you are suggesting. There are also many cases where fan insist on solutions that are not really available. You need to demonstrate viable solutions were available and at least estimate the impact. For example, had the signed a different catcher, what could have we anticipated in terms of WAR, for example. The Twins needed to improve by 14 games to win the division. I would love to see the transactions that would have gotten us to that point.

 

Why do you ask “Why should this team rely solely on Royce Lewis & co. to all hit the ground running a few years from now”? How did you possibly conclude this is my position? That would be a good example of a strawman. This argument can only be made while conveniently  ignoring most of what I wrote given we have been debating the merit of savvy trades, usage of international bonus pool, drafting and development, as well as free agent signings. I also framed my position with two elements. One is that the context was top prospects as opposed to "Royce Lewis". The other is the timing of trading top prospects. GMs don't trade top prospects until they have a proven core in place. Our core is not only unproven, they are quite suspect. It's ironic that you highlight the risk of prospects and then insist that it's a sound strategy to make long-term decision based on the assumption the current suspects are all going to emerge. That is anything but sound management practice, especially given they would need to emerge as superstar in order for us to contend.

 

BTW … If you don’t include cost, we can’t possibly determine if the solution is feasible. The statement that costs are not relevant is extremely naïve.

 

Draft like Houston was meant conceptually not literally tank and get several #1 and #2 picks. It means draft well. Mid-market teams must draft well that is no secret. The previous regime missed on some extremely important picks. How much better would last season and our future been had they taken Benintendi and Nola. I can’t blame them too much for Rodriguez but these are the decisions that you have to get right to contend with teams that have made great personnel decisions and have bigger budgets.

 

Trade like Cleveland does not literally mean go out acquire an entire staff of SPs as prospects and trade relatively little to get them. I would guess they believe some of the deadline acquisitions have this potential. Just one such acquisition is big. The success of teams outside the top revenue producers requires effective identification of potential and some savvy trades to acquire players that develop exceptionally well. 

You can't measure a hypothetical scenario involving the past. Does bringing in an actual major league catcher other than Bobby Wilson not improve the team? Does having a legitimate 4th OFer on the bench not improve the team? The answers should be fairly easy here. Comparing individual player WAR to team wins isn't apples to apples either. 

 

The Twins know they have talented major league players in Rosario, Berrios, Kepler, ect. They hope that's what they get from Lewis, Kiriloff, ect. There's no reason why this organization can't continue to surround those players with talent while also identifying young trade candidates, using the international pool, and drafting well.

 

What's naive about saying the team could afford to bring in backups at a couple positions and a few more bullpen arms? You can chill on the ad hominem btw....

 

Obviously I didn't take it literally. My point was, and continues to be, that their paths aren't ones that can simply be "followed." Finding a hidden gem via savvy trading is great. I'd love the Twins to find another Johan, but I'd never rely on it happening. Drafting an development could certainly be improved, but alone that's not enough. We've seen how fickle prospects can be. At some point teams have to become players in FA and make trades to fill out a roster that can seriously contend. That point isn't necessarily linear, i.e. there isn't a checklist where once a certain number of criteria have been met it's safe to dip into FA and trade prospects. The rise to contention is built through all those process working together. The notion that we need to have nearly an entire roster of young, solid players before the Twins can make an serious moves is why the "window of contention," has been continually pushed back.