Article: MIN 2, CLE 1: Berrios Stars, LaMarre Plays Hero as Twins Survive 16-Inning Duel

[Mike Sixel]

Very happy for Berrios and Rosario!

[Circus Boy]

Props to all GT posters who stayed up through to the end. I quit after the 11th.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Circus Boy

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

What a great game. Lucky fans in Puerto Rico.

How long until we say that Berrios is becoming something special? He obviously isn't this good but is a true #2 at minimum?

To be fair, I think the numbers systems are always based on projections, and sometimes those are off. It is possible for a player's major league numbers to trend towards their minor league career... and Berrios was an ACE during his minor league career. He's certainly pitching like one right now. His MO in the minors, for the record was something like "He has 3 plus pitches and can command the hell out of them." I don't remember who said that, but that's an ace. It's also a potential ace, even if KLaw didn't like the plane on his FB.

 

Will that remain? Who knows. It's possible he's doing something that MLB can adjust to, and when they do, he's going to need to adjust. I'll say this, given the guy's work ethic, I'm quite confident that he will if it's possible. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Props to all GT posters who stayed up through to the end. I quit at after the 11th.

As did I, and the thread was at something like 11 pages too. 

[ThejacKmp]

 

1.63 ERA - 29 K - 1 BB - 27.2 IP - OppBA .155

He isn't this good. Nobody is this good. These are like Pedro Martinez peak numbers.

But I think we can start the conversation that he is a #2 at minimum (with upside for more). Exactly what the Twins have been looking for.

 

This Twins rotation could be pretty solid for a potential playoff series (knock on wood) if Berrios is a #1. Santana is an acceptable #2 when he gets healthy and Lynn/Odorizzi/Gibson are likely to include okay #3 and #4 options. The big thing would be if Romero/Gonsalves is ready to come up and Liriano this thing to be a #2/#3 option.

 

Obviously doesn't match up with the Nationals or Cleveland rotation but it's not far off of the rest. Of course that's in an ideal world.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Props to all GT posters who stayed up through to the end. I quit at after the 11th.

 

I joined in the 12th after I came home drunk from bowling. Regretting and not regretting it today.

[ThejacKmp]

 

I agree with your take on Grossman. That said, who do you think the Twins should replace him with?

 

I don't know that you need to replace him. He's not a bad bench bat for situations where you need baserunners (not all pinch hitting is in a 1 run game). He's just maybe not a great 4th OF who is getting a start or two a week. I think the ideal would be to find a 4th OF who is a RH power bat and shift Grossman to that 25th man spot.

 

That RH 4th OF isn't coming up within the organization so you have to go out and find it. It'll depend who is selling at the deadline but to me it's someone like Granderson last year (but RH). A vet on an expiring contract who wants to play for a winner before hitting free agency. LA gave up Jacob Rhame, an utterly forgettable reliever, for Granderson. 

 

So it doesn't cost much at the deadline but it shifts roles around a bit. Grossman is a Sano caddy on the bases late and is capable of coming in and having a decent at-bat. Veteran is the guy in that HR pinch-hit and start a few days a week.

 

I did a very unscientific look but guys like Carlos Gomez or AJ Pollock might make sense. In an ideal world, McCutchen might be available if the Giants flop. Not sure he'd be a willing 4th OF but that would be a great pickup and likely wouldn't cost much since he's on an expiring deal.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Not sure he'd be a willing 4th OF but that would be a great pickup and likely wouldn't cost much since he's on an expiring deal.

 

SF gave up a middling reliever, international money and their 2016 2nd rounder (a college OF) for McCutchen. If you go to midseason and the Giants are out of it, I'd think that Andrew Bechtold would get it done. Might even be an overpay by the Twins, depends what the market is for OF help and depends what McCutchen does this year. If he continues to slump early, it could even be just a salary dump where the Twins hope he bounces back to the norm a bit.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Ryan LaMarre has a 1.000 BABIP that will not stand. Part of that is that he has struck out 5 of his 12 at bats. And he has no extra-base hits. If he had a normal BABIP we'd be calling for him to be cut. He's a nice story but he's not someone who deserves a role any bigger than the one he currently has.

 

Morrison doesn't look good but trying to trade him or DFA him is ridiculous. You couldn't sell any lower. He's only 30 so it's unlikely he's dropped off a cliff. He's got a career 109 OPS+ so he's got a track record of success. He's just in a big slump.

 

I'd like to see the Twins give him the Tampa series (revenge games sometimes shake a guy out of a rut) and, if that doesn't work, sit him for the Yankees series to give him a breather and get out of his head. Logan Morrison will be fine long-term. We just have to be patient. 

 

Robbie Grossman I'm more worried about. 2016 looks more and more like an outlier the further we go into this season. It's looking like the Twins should be thinking about upgrading their 4th OF at the deadline.

I don't think LaMarre has a lot of long term believers but he's certainly hitting the ball better than a handful of guys right now so I don't see why getting him some ABs at the expense of those struggling is a bad thing. 

 

Robbie isn't hitting well, but he also has about half the ABs that Morrison does to start the season. Morrison's only real value is mashing, and if he's not producing extra base hits while simultaneously beating balls into the shift & striking out he's going to continue to be a black hole in the middle of the lineup. That doesn't mean I think he'll stay at an OPS under .300 for the year, but 3-44 is a little concerning. At this point I don't think it's just a slow start. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Morrison looks fat, out of shape, and completely lost.  I hope the Twins are trying to work out a trade to see if anyone will take him off their hands.  Otherwise just DFA the guy.

Now that they're back in the states we can at least resume blaming his struggles on the weather. 

[TheLeviathan]

If I recall, Morrison did try to lay down a bunt last night.  

 

(And failed miserably)

[kab21]

 

To be fair, I think the numbers systems are always based on projections, and sometimes those are off. It is possible for a player's major league numbers to trend towards their minor league career... and Berrios was an ACE during his minor league career. He's certainly pitching like one right now. His MO in the minors, for the record was something like "He has 3 plus pitches and can command the hell out of them." I don't remember who said that, but that's an ace. It's also a potential ace, even if KLaw didn't like the plane on his FB.

 

Will that remain? Who knows. It's possible he's doing something that MLB can adjust to, and when they do, he's going to need to adjust. I'll say this, given the guy's work ethic, I'm quite confident that he will if it's possible. 

The significant thing is that he appears to have taken the next step towards realizing his potential.

The short summary of his career
Great MiLB prospect - MLB struggles - MLB above average - NOW

 

Not every great prospect takes the steps that he has. I was always an optimist with Berrios but I reigned in my enthusiasm with the expectation that he would be a very good pitcher (let's say 3.60-3.80) with upside. My expectations are becoming unreasonable (still less than Pedro Martinez peak) now. He might even an elite pitcher (top 10 MLB).

[Huddy]

 

I think Morrison will be ok eventually but maybe not. There are flags. But I think it's probably too early to give up on him but I think he should be moved down in the order. It doesn't help that we don't really have an obvious replacement for him, either.  I've never been a big Vargas fan and he's putting up bad numbers again at AAA. Grossman isn't hitting either.

I honestly prefer when the DH is more of a rotating position and we use it to give Garver some more AB's Sano and Mauer days off in the field. I have never been a huge fan of having a guy that can only play first or DH to begin with though. Especially as another lefty.

[Number3]

So the net of all of this is a 5-3 (semi) home stand instead of the 7-5 minimum I had hoped for. I hope the 4 make up games accumulated don't haunt them later. Still 3 games over .500 at 8-5 and in first place with Rays and some team from New York on the horizon. So far Kepler's home run in the 9-8 salvage job over Houston and Sano's tying home run last night are the 2 big hits, LaMarre's game winner not withstanding. No reason not to win the Tampa series and split with New York headed home for Cincy 4 games over. Go Twins!

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

The significant thing is that he appears to have taken the next step towards realizing his potential.

The short summary of his career
Great MiLB prospect - MLB struggles - MLB above average - NOW

 

Not every great prospect takes the steps that he has. I was always an optimist with Berrios but I reigned in my enthusiasm with the expectation that he would be a very good pitcher (let's say 3.60-3.80) with upside. My expectations are becoming unreasonable (still less than Pedro Martinez peak) now. He might even an elite pitcher (top 10 MLB).

 

Here's to your expectations becoming unreasonable.  

 

I probably wasn't too far off of that myself. 

[jkcarew]

Strange season so far, to say the least.  But it's nice to be banking wins (and against some good opponents) when so many things are...not ideal.

[TheMatt]

Um so last night even Hildenberger thought he should have been pulled, right? Hence the tardiness to the mound.

[D. Hocking]

 

Now that they're back in the states we can at least resume blaming his struggles on the weather. 

 

That might not be as an effective argument in Tampa.

[KirbyDome89]

 

That might not be as an effective argument in Tampa.

Sarcasm

[Puckett34]

The real question is what is more sustainable, Duke's 16 K/9 or LaMarre's 1.000 BABIP?

[jokin]

 

Now that the dust has settled a little bit on this one, yes, that is definitely a big takeaway. Flip the perspective and just think how Cleveland must feel today. They had to endure a 16-inning game AND lost.

 

All the frustration from the Twins in not being able to scratch across more runs is somewhat lifted by the fact they still won. Yes, it's just one game, and that Cleveland team and manager are a bunch of pros, but this is the kind of loss that you could see potentially having a carryover effect. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

 

Are we forgetting the silver lining in every cloud of "frustration"?

 

After just one (extended and brilliantly pitched) game, the Twins team ERA went from 3.54 to 3.05 and the Twins dropped from 11th place to 5th place in team ERA rankings. If the Twins can maintain anywhere near that level throughout the season (and not to forget, significant veteran and rookie help is waiting in the wings), the run drought will be much less frustrating.

[jokin]

 

 I have never been a huge fan of having a guy that can only play first or DH to begin with though. Especially as another lefty.

 

Maybe not a huge fan, but I bet you might have been at least a middling fan of Big Papi?

[jokin]

 

That might not be as an effective argument in Tampa.

 

Sarcasm

 

But maybe at least partly effective in Houston?

[jokin]

 

The real question is what is more sustainable, Duke's 16 K/9 or LaMarre's 1.000 BABIP?

 

Can we throw in a third,fourth and fifth option?

Duke's 12.5 BB/9?

Mauer's 21.4% BB%

Sano's 44.6% K%?

[snepp]

 

Props to all GT posters who stayed up through to the end. I quit after the 11th.

 

I finally got home in the bottom of the 9th, and still managed to experience 3 hours of the game.

[AlwaysinModeration]

The real question from the game was whether Molitor said “good job shutting them down for 7, José, now who’s got the next nine?”

[jun]

Both Morrison and Grossman look completely lost in the major league. Both should be sent down to the minor league. Braves designated outfielder Lane Adams for assignment.

[Mr. Brooks]

Both Morrison and Grossman look completely lost in the major league. Both should be sent down to the minor league. Braves designated outfielder Lane Adams for assignment.

You think Morrison's problem is that he needs further minor league development?

 

He's 30 years old and has over 3400 MLB plate appearances. There isn't anything he's going to learn in the minors. If they don't think he can come out of the slump, you just cut him.

[USAFChief]

 

The real question is what is more sustainable, Duke's 16 K/9 or LaMarre's 1.000 BABIP?

no.

[snepp]

no.

Apparently both are more sustainable than Chief's modus operandi though.