Go get Verlander

[PseudoSABR]

 

Not even trying for (and not getting) Verlander is just one data point, Pseudo.

 

I've been posting for 2 months now that I was growing less impressed with the new FO.  Not getting ANY help (and actually trading away from the pitching staff) is where I draw the line, and where they lost me.  They've been presented with a golden opportunity...they should be trying to take advantage of that, particularly in a market where the Twins have become almost an afterthought for much of the paying public.

 

And for the record, much of what you posted is either opinion (draft well, applying analytics in-game, a 'plan' with all the prospects), something that we all knew HAD to be done no matter who was hired (overhaul the analytics dept), or speculative (rebuilt coaching staff responsible for the 'huge' strides).  I want to see actual, factual, on the major league field help.  

I don't know how what I'm saying is opinion and what you're saying is fact.  We actually don't know to what extent they inquired about Verlander.  We actually don't know to what extent they pursued other players.  

 

I just don't think the basis of judging the new FO should be: well that's not what I would have done at the deadline.  I, too, wish they would have acquired help, but I'm willing to wager it was due to legitimate reasons* and not mere incompetence.   I'll need some actual proof of incompetence before I put the new FO in a hole, and take away the benefit of the doubt.  

 

*Perhaps among those legitimate reasons, could be: the FO believes Meija and other rostered players are better bets to contribute, esp. given the cost; the FO believes the players requested in trades are too valuable for furture seasons when the FO believes the team will have an even better chance of succeeding; the FO tried in earnest to acquire Verlander (among others) but were simply outbid; etc.

 

Yes, that's speculative.  But that the Twins didn't acquire Verlander (or their weren't media reports of their pursuit) is the fact that you are hanging your hat on, pardon me if I believe your sombrero will fall to the ground. 

 

(Also pardon the cheeky tone, it's because I know and love you Chief!)

[USAFChief]

 

I don't know how what I'm saying is opinion and what you're saying is fact.   

I know it's a fact they acquired nobody.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

I know it's a fact they acquired nobody.  

It's speculative--and hence an opinion--that it's due to some level of incompetence and hence should affect how you judge them going forward // how much leeway you're willing to give.  Again, I don't like they didn't acquire anyone, but I'm going to assume it's for legitimate reasons, and not incompetence, until presented with some positive fact that suggests otherwise. 

 

Also if making-moves is proof-positive of competence, the Mariners should have all the wins....

[USAFChief]

It's speculative--and hence an opinion--that it's due to some level of incompetence and hence should affect how you judge them going forward // how much leeway you're willing to give. Again, I don't like they didn't acquire anyone, but I'm going to assume it's for legitimate reasons, and not incompetence, until presented with some positive fact that suggests otherwise.

 

You can assume whatever you wish, of course.

 

But I'm not speculating, or assuming anything. They did nothing. There's the positive fact I need.

 

I gave previous regimes no credit for "we just couldnt get it done," I'm not going to give this one any either.

 

Your Mileage May Vary, of course.

[Squirrel]

You can assume whatever you wish, of course.

But I'm not speculating, or assuming anything. They did nothing. There the positive fact I need.

The result was nothing. What they did or didn't do behind the scenes is unknown. Yeah, semantics, but that's all I've got. And it's still just an opinion.

[Twodogs]

I feel that the Twins will be better off if they keep their prospects and sign a good starter in the off-season, such as Lynn.  Then the rotation would be 

Santana

Lynn

Berrios

Mejia

Gibson, May, Hughes, Gonsalves, Romero

 

Then they will be able to afford a decent arm for the bullpen also.

 

I just don't think Verlander is going to be that great going forward, I believe he left his last start early with some minor injury to his trap.  Even if Verlander is ok this year, he wont make a difference agianst Houston etc.... and if he isn't that great next year then it is a giant waste of money and resources if they had to trade someone good for him.  Houston on the other hand has a shot at the WS, without Verlander, now you add him and he provides some depth in case a few starters get hurt, most of the Houston starters have been hurt at some point this year.  So yes it makes sense for Houston, not really the Twins in my opinion.  

[Mr. Brooks]

I feel that the Twins will be better off if they keep their prospects and sign a good starter in the off-season, such as Lynn. Then the rotation would be

Santana

Lynn

Berrios

Mejia

Gibson, May, Hughes, Gonsalves, Romero

 

Then they will be able to afford a decent arm for the bullpen also.

 

I just don't think Verlander is going to be that great going forward, I believe he left his last start early with some minor injury to his trap. Even if Verlander is ok this year, he wont make a difference agianst Houston etc.... and if he isn't that great next year then it is a giant waste of money and resources if they had to trade someone good for him. Houston on the other hand has a shot at the WS, without Verlander, now you add him and he provides some depth in case a few starters get hurt, most of the Houston starters have been hurt at some point this year. So yes it makes sense for Houston, not really the Twins in my opinion.

Houston didn't give up the prospects they did for depth in case a few starters get hurt.

[Twodogs]

Well lets see, Keuchel has started a total of 18 games this year, McCuellers has started 19 games this year and McHugh has started a grand total of 8 and Morton is leading the way with 21.  Gibson with all of his trips to the Minors has started 24, so are you saying that they didn't need Verlander in case they have more issues with their rotation??  (That's the only reason), Also do you seriously think they would have given up good prospects and all those millions if Keuchel, McCuellers, Morton and McHugh had all started 28 games this year and had no apparent issues going forward??  Combined they are all 31 - 14 in a total of 66 games started.  Extrapolate that over 110 games started if they all had 27 to 28 games started up to this point.  Yeah, I'm saying that they wouldn't have needed him, nor would they have given much if anything for him.  They need him because of injuries, so yeah he provides depth.

[laloesch]

Verlander goes from an ace in paragraph one to too old and expensive in paragraph three.

 

He's aging fast.

Why dont you reread my post instead of making an exaggerated generalized statement. All is said was that he has shown some cracks in his game the last couple of years. I did not say too old.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

we dodged a bullet

[Squirrel]

Knock it off, all of you. Quit the mean sarcasm and quit being combative and quit making posts about other posters.

[USAFChief]

Anyone want to revisit their stance on trading for Verlander?

[drjim]

Anyone want to revisit their stance on trading for Verlander?

Not me. I was all for it until it was clear he wouldn't accept a trade to the Twins.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not me. I was all for it until it was clear he wouldn't accept a trade to the Twins.

I'm not sure "clear" is the right word (unless I missed something, very possible).

 

It's likely Verlander would have waived his clause to go to Houston preferable to Minny, but it's even more likely that the Twins didn't lift a finger to find out if he was even interested.

[drjim]

I'm not sure "clear" is the right word (unless I missed something, very possible).

 

It's likely Verlander would have waived his clause to go to Houston preferable to Minny, but it's even more likely that the Twins didn't lift a finger to find out if he was even interested.

The last part is probably true, but his list of acceptable teams was reported by multiple sources and updated throughout August.

[jimmer]

Verlander wasn't going to come here. The whole question of whether we should or shouldn't have traded for him is moot. If he was going to leave Detroit, it'd be for true W Series contender, which is what happened. He chose wisely.

 

These I told you so followup posts because he's doing awesome doesn't mean a thing. Kind of like the Aaron Hicks trade thread that got closed because of people going back and forth saying I told you so.

 

He wasn't coming here.

[USAFChief]

The last part is probably true, but his list of acceptable teams was reported by multiple sources and updated throughout August.

Then make it worth his while.

 

He wasn't staying in Detroit, with them tearing down the team. It was a matter of time.

 

Besides which, his no trade clause wasn't the primary issue of objection for most.

 

Opportunities like that don't present themselves often.

[brockbesler]

The Twins had an opportunity to go after Quintana too. He would have been a great addition and he is still fairly young. I'm not sure how many years of control he has left though.

[The Wise One]

 

Anyone want to revisit their stance on trading for Verlander?

Is there some new information that the Twins were an acceptable team on Verlander's list?

[The Wise One]

 

The Twins had an opportunity to go after Quintana too. He would have been a great addition and he is still fairly young. I'm not sure how many years of control he has left though.

A team trading a top 10 prospect and a top 100 prospect trumps whatever the Twins could offer in  trade

[Platoon]

From a simply pragmatic viewpoint, why would Justin Verlander come to a team like the Twins vs a team like the Astros at this time and stage of his career? Three years ago there were a lot of similarities between the Twins, Astros, and Cubs potential futures. For various reasons a considerable separation has occurred in those three years. If the Twins can fill their pitching void in time to take advantage of their positional talent, they can close that gap. I would imagine Verlander is smart enough to know that he alone could not make the Twins a legitimate contender this year, or likely next. With his clock running out, and money probably not an incentive, it's very likely he was looking for the here and now. Not the when and maybe.

[jorgenswest]

A team trading a top 10 prospect and a top 100 prospect trumps whatever the Twins could offer in  trade

The Twins couldn’t match the trade with their minor leaguers but a Buxton or Berrios would have trumped the Astros offer.

[brockbesler]

A team trading a top 10 prospect and a top 100 prospect trumps whatever the Twins could offer in  trade

This is true, but it would have been nice if they would have tried. Something like Gordon, Gonsalves, and Wade might have been a good start.

[nicksaviking]

Then make it worth his while.

He wasn't staying in Detroit, with them tearing down the team. It was a matter of time.

Besides which, his no trade clause wasn't the primary issue of objection for most.

Opportunities like that don't present themselves often.

I'd have to think the fact that at that point in the season that the Astros were almost a cinch for the playoffs and a top seed and the Twins were much less likely to make the playoffs and a WC team at best would have been hard to overcome for the Twins.

 

I love the Twins and am biased in favor of Minnesota, but if I'm Verlander and the Tigers tell me in July that I'm going to Minnesota or I'm going nowhere, I'd tell them I'm going to Houston or I'm going nowhere. If he ended up staying put, he knows there may be other suitors for him in the offseason.

[spinowner]

 

Anyone want to revisit their stance on trading for Verlander?

I hadn't posted my stance on this thread, but I think I did somewhere else along the line. And I'll always revisit my stance, but in this case I'm not changing it.

Acquiring Verlander was a move I'd have been in favor of if I were an Astros fan. They have a strong team and because they have a realistic chance of winning the WS this year the time was right to make such a move.

In the case of the Twins, acquiring Verlander at an equivalent of the price the Astros paid is a move I would have opposed. Beyond that, beating out the Astros for him would have required paying more than what they did. And beyond that, he would have had to approve the trade which would probably have required contractural incentives. After all that, it would have only slightly improved our minuscule chances of winning a WS this year.

I'll also repeat that I want the Twins organization to compete for a WS championship every year for the rest of my life. At this stage of the process I think it would be wrong for Falvine to commit resources to Verlander, especially with the number of young emerging players on our team that I want locked in to long term contracts.

And, I won't forget to mention, at this point in the 2017 postseason I'd much rather see Verlander pitching for the Astros than any of the three evil empires they are competing against.

 

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

The Twins had an opportunity to go after Quintana too. He would have been a great addition and he is still fairly young. I'm not sure how many years of control he has left though.

Quintana is signed through 2018 with team options for 2019 & 2020.

Inexpensive options, too.

Very team-friendly contract.

[Mr. Brooks]

Then make it worth his while.

 

He wasn't staying in Detroit, with them tearing down the team. It was a matter of time.

 

Besides which, his no trade clause wasn't the primary issue of objection for most.

 

Opportunities like that don't present themselves often.

Make it worth his while how?

 

How do you know they didn't ask him if there was anything they could realistically do to get him to come here and he said no?

[The Wise One]

 

The Twins couldn’t match the trade with their minor leaguers but a Buxton or Berrios would have trumped the Astros offer.

True, but then you are making a significant subtraction from your active roster

[jimmer]

 

The Twins couldn’t match the trade with their minor leaguers but a Buxton or Berrios would have trumped the Astros offer.

Are you suggesting we should have used Buxton in a Verlander trade?  Or are you just saying we COULD have used him?

[jorgenswest]

True, but then you are making a significant subtraction from your active roster

Yes. I wouldn’t make that deal. Perez and Jimenez (in the Quintana deal) have better upside than anyone outside of Buxton and Berrios. I can’t fault the front office for keeping those two.