Eye Test - Polanco at Short

[crapforks]

No useful defensive metrics can be used to assess a players ability with such a small sample size, so I was wondering what the TD community feels about Polanco at short so far. I know that his defense has come up when discussing other topics here (like trading Dozier, Escobar's challenging season, Plouffe and Sano at third, etc.) but I haven't seen a thread dedicated to discussing how his play has been over there. I have seen probably four games with Polanco at short and I haven't seen him make an error or a spectacular play yet. If anything, he seems to have a little of that "just past a diving Polanco" feel to his play. He seems to be pretty quick, especially to his right, and he seems to have a decent arm.

 

I know he played essentially zero shortstop in AAA. I know that Dick and Bert are pretty quick to heap the praise on the routine plays for him. And I know that he has looked pretty solid at the plate. His ability to stick could dictate some of the offseason moves, and I can't get a read on whether he is a shortstop or not. What do you think? 

[jimmer]

So far, he seems fine there.  Not a detriment, not a stud defender.  I'm good with him being there.

[stringer bell]

I haven't seen a red flag either. I just saw that he had committed nine errors already, but that is only a small measure of overall performance. He's not an embarrassment, for sure IMHO, but he might settle in to be below average. It looks to me like he has enough arm to play short, I didn't believe that was the case when he was called up this time.

[Willihammer]

Looks pretty bad to me, seen him bungle too many routing ground balls. His feeds to Dozier have cost us a double play on ocassion (two nights ago was an example), Dozier wants those balls on the left field side of the bag, Polanco doesn't always put it there, Escobar usually does. Arm is definitely marginal as is his ability to field anything with mustard on it, IMO.

[ashbury]

He's got everything he needs, except the arm to play short. His brief stint as a regular SS this past month hasn't done anything to change my opinion there. Too many throws are an adventure until if they arrive in Mauer's mitt.

[Doomtints]

He should be left at 2B.  His defense is better than Dozier's.  Move Dozier to 3rd, Sano to DH, and send away Plouffe.

 

Or, if the Twins want to swing for the fences, trade Dozier while he is peaking since they have the 2B of the future ready to go.

 

 

[Loosey]

 

He should be left at 2B.  His defense is better than Dozier's.  Move Dozier to 3rd, Sano to DH, and send away Plouffe.

 

Or, if the Twins want to swing for the fences, trade Dozier while he is peaking since they have the 2B of the future ready to go.

I've run the move Dozier scenario to 3rd base in my head few times myself.  My question is, does he have the arm for 3rd base?  He clearly has the pop in bat to play 3rd.  

[Joe A. Preusser]

If you don't have a player who excels both offensively and defensibly, you generally choose one with defense up the middle. But with Polanco and Dozier (and Sano) in the infield, we are generating so much offense that I think whatever deficiencies they have are greatly offset. Especially when considering a Buxton, Rosario, Kepler OF that would presumably be nicely above average, and the fact that we have a great defensive anchor at 1B.

[Thrylos]

Polanco at 23 is a league average shortstop and has a lot of time ahead of him to improve.  Polanco at SS is more valuable than Polanco at 2B, because you can find good hitting second basemen easier than good hitting shortstops.   Part of his issues have been thinking too much, which is pretty common with young, inexperienced players when they are first called up.

 

Now the fact that the Twins messed with his positions in the minors, should not be a surprise.   Got  to play your young players in their most valuable position, until they outgrow it, when you are rebuilding, because part of rebuilding is to get these people experience to be better on their most valuable positions.  This means Sano at 3B, Vargas at 1B, and Mauer/Park at DH.  It they were competing, it would had been a different story.

 

And, yes, they have to sell high of Dozier... 

[crapforks]

So, mixed reviews? I guess the highest praise I can see is somewhere in the 'passable, below average, hits enough to offset shortcomings' range. It would be nice if he were doing well enough (defensively) to pencil in at short next season. Dozier at second and Sano at third with Escobar as the utility.

 

There really are so many decisions to be made by the new FO.

[Doomtints]

 

Polanco at 23 is a league average shortstop and has a lot of time ahead of him to improve.  Polanco at SS is more valuable than Polanco at 2B, because you can find good hitting second basemen easier than good hitting shortstops.   Part of his issues have been thinking too much, which is pretty common with young, inexperienced players when they are first called up.

 

Now the fact that the Twins messed with his positions in the minors, should not be a surprise.   Got  to play your young players in their most valuable position, until they outgrow it, when you are rebuilding, because part of rebuilding is to get these people experience to be better on their most valuable positions.  This means Sano at 3B, Vargas at 1B, and Mauer/Park at DH.  It they were competing, it would had been a different story.

 

And, yes, they have to sell high of Dozier... 

 

You make a great point here.  Polanco has plenty of time to learn a new position.  You should *never* move someone who can defend in the middle infield somewhere else.  This move keeps him there.

 

Sometimes it's easy to miss the obvious, which I have done here.  Good job.  

[jimmer]

 

I haven't seen a red flag either. I just saw that he had committed nine errors already, but that is only a small measure of overall performance. He's not an embarrassment, for sure IMHO, but he might settle in to be below average. It looks to me like he has enough arm to play short, I didn't believe that was the case when he was called up this time.

5 errors at shortstop where he has played 223 innings.

[Linus]

I don't think he is a long term ss. Hands are fine but range is not elite and arm is not strong enough. He can get better so no harm letting him try. Long term he is a second baseman.

[Riverbrian]

I've missed more games than I typically do lately so my eyes have a small sample size but...

 

 

My opinion. I won't declare Escobar the superior defender at SS. They look very similar so far.

 

To me it seems like if you are going to worry about Polanco defensively... than you have to worry about Escobar defensively. They seem like the same guy out there. 

 

In the context of the current team. SS is where we need them both. 

 

 

[Kwak]

 

5 errors at shortstop where he has played 223 innings.

Counting errors on Twins players is misleading--official scoring is often "forgiving". The "eyeball test", and it must be used for every play in every game, is likely the only indicator of defensive skill demonstrated. In my opinion, Polanco is marginal for a major league SS (especially an every day player) and he would have to hit a great deal to make up for his defensive liability. 

[jimmer]

 

Counting errors on Twins players is misleading--official scoring is often "forgiving". The "eyeball test", and it must be used for every play in every game, is likely the only indicator of defensive skill demonstrated. In my opinion, Polanco is marginal for a major league SS (especially an every day player) and he would have to hit a great deal to make up for his defensive liability. 

Somebody quoted errors.  Gave a total of nine.  All I did was point out that at shortstop, the position we're discussing, he had 5. 

 

I, personally, don't use errors or fielding % as a barometer for fielding prowess. Haven't since, well, I don't know, the 1970s, maybe early 80s? :-)

[stringer bell]

I mentioned errors and then discounted them, more or less. I agree they aren't the true measure of a defender (a couple of statues at first have enjoyed errorless or nearly so seasons) but OTOH, a player with a really high number of errors is almost certainly not a good defender.

 

The breakdown for Polanco is 5 errors at short, 3 at third, and 1 at second.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree with stringer.....if a player does somehow have lots of errors, that's likely a good indicator of CURRENT fielding issues. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

In my own limited view, Escobar was the superior SS.  Now, that was a small sample, and I do think the age plays a role here, b/c as Thrylos noted, he's 23.  Escobar is much older...

 

So here's the question for 2017.

 

Do you trade Escobar and plant Polanco at SS and Dozier at 2B, or do you trade Dozier and put Polanco at 2B.  Keep in mind both Esco and Dozier have 2 years left, so that doesn't factor in.  Dozier likely has more trade value, but Escobar could potentially have nice value too if his performance this year was due more to his health.  You also have Gordon sitting in AA next season, who while is not a sure thing, can be reasonably considered to help as soon as 2018.

 

I still end up trading Dozier in this scenario, but that makes Polanco a 2B.

[bluechipper]

 

In my own limited view, Escobar was the superior SS.  Now, that was a small sample, and I do think the age plays a role here, b/c as Thrylos noted, he's 23.  Escobar is much older...

 

So here's the question for 2017.

 

Do you trade Escobar and plant Polanco at SS and Dozier at 2B, or do you trade Dozier and put Polanco at 2B.  Keep in mind both Esco and Dozier have 2 years left, so that doesn't factor in.  Dozier likely has more trade value, but Escobar could potentially have nice value too if his performance this year was due more to his health.  You also have Gordon sitting in AA next season, who while is not a sure thing, can be reasonably considered to help as soon as 2018.

 

I still end up trading Dozier in this scenario, but that makes Polanco a 2B.

I'd keep all 3 and let Polanco start the season at SS. Not great range, but hopefully he can make the routine plays.

 

Also, the "Dozier likely has more trade value" than Escobar might be just a bit of an understatement.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

Polanco at 23 is a league average shortstop and has a lot of time ahead of him to improve.  Polanco at SS is more valuable than Polanco at 2B, because you can find good hitting second basemen easier than good hitting shortstops.   Part of his issues have been thinking too much, which is pretty common with young, inexperienced players when they are first called up.

 

Now the fact that the Twins messed with his positions in the minors, should not be a surprise.   Got  to play your young players in their most valuable position, until they outgrow it, when you are rebuilding, because part of rebuilding is to get these people experience to be better on their most valuable positions.  This means Sano at 3B, Vargas at 1B, and Mauer/Park at DH.  It they were competing, it would had been a different story.

 

And, yes, they have to sell high of Dozier... 

I don't agree that they "messed up" his position in the minors. The organization cleared decided he was a second baseman and NOT a shortstop, so second base is where he played every single inning at AAA. Their expectation clearly was/is to trade Dozier ... or perhaps trade Polanco. The mess seems to come about if they can't pull the trigger on trading either one of them. Then you have a guy who can't reliably play short playing short (or so it seems to me!).

[HitInAPinch]

Dozier at 2nd, Escobar at SS and Polanco UTL-INF.  Bank on it!   

[Bark's Lounge]

I've said it about Sano before and I will say it about Polanco now. Roll him out there everyday at SS in 2017 - figure out what you have. It is very conceivable we will have a nightmarish left side of the infield, but we will be in the midst of regime change and a different baseball philosophy.

 

The season is probably lost. I don't say "is" because it is baseball, strange things happen (aka 2015 Twins).

 

Also, it could be very painful as we don't have the bat missing ability that other pitching staffs have. We have some pieces that can do that, but we will be living on a wing and a prayer for that to happen to a strong extent next season. Because of that the infield might look even worse.

 

Polanco's bat looks to be strong, if he can be a SS, all the better. I honestly do not believe the Twins get the haul that is required in a Brian Dozier trade. When and if he get's 40HR's, it would be a blow against the optics of this team if they trade him. Everyone in the baseball front offices knows about Dozier's struggles and I don't think they will give us a red carpet trade. I'd rather keep him and hope he is a superstar in the making the next 4 years. (He'll be a free agent before then, but I think you all catch my drift.)

[DocBauer]

First, let me come clean that I haven't watched enough of Polanco at SS to form an overly accurate opinion, though I have watched him some, and have seen a couple replays, and heard general praise on the radio broadcasts, (for what those are worth). But I also haven't seen...or heard...anything that says he can't play the position, or that he's looked bad out there.

 

You HAVE TO PLAY HIM to see what you have. FINALLY they are. And as young as he is, getting his first real taste of ML ball, and havingto re-a climate himself to the position somewhat after not playing there the entire season, I think he's done quite well. In fact, considering those factors, the fact that he doesn't look awful may be the best indicator of what is to come.

 

If you take the time to do a little research...and I have previously...you would be surprised by some of the error totals accumulated by "top" SS early in their careers. And the point is well taken that not all players excel in both sides of the game. Top defense can help offset average or less offense in a player and his net worth, and quality offense can offset average or slightly below defense.

 

Polanco, and we could/should include Sano in the same breath, looks like he can do the job while swinging a quality stick. Like Sano, he has the ability to continue to improve, but only if given the chance.

 

IMHO, Sano at 3B just about every day, Polanco the same at SS...though he still has to earn it over the "has looked better before this season" Escobar...Dozier at 2B, Mauer and Vargas at 1B with Park in a "get healthy and prove it" position. Escobar makes for a fine utility guy who will probably still play a lot.The defense on the right side will be solid to good. The left side will be a work in progress. But so what? Really, we're talking about a couple of young, budding talents. And with the exception of a couple of veterans, we're talking about a very young and rebuilding team. And you're not willing to live with some mistakes and errors from such talented youngsters?

 

Give me our starting OF next season, hopefully a quality FA 4th/fill-in OF and a solid closer, (hopefully 1 more decent LHRP) to help ease all of the Twins young RP arms in to their roles, and I'm actually feeling pretty good about a lot of things.

[jimmer]

 

If you take the time to do a little research...and I have previously...you would be surprised by some of the error totals accumulated by "top" SS early in their careers. And the point is well taken that not all players excel in both sides of the game. Top defense can help offset average or less offense in a player and his net worth, and quality offense can offset average or slightly below defense.

 

Wizard of Oz had five seasons with 20 or more.  I'm not saying Polanco is anywhere near Ozzie, but it's another example of how errors don't really tell the story.

[jorgenswest]

Eye test...

 

I wonder about his feet. He doesn't seem to put his body and feet in the best position to receive and throw the ball consistently. Poor position to throw will lead to weaker throws and the appearance of less arm strength. I think we have also seen an arm that appears strong enough to start at SS at times.

 

Can he improve? That is probably best answered by the team who has watched him and his progress throughout his minor league career. It seemed like the Twins made that assessment entering the season and are now having second thoughts.

[Reider]

I haven't seen much of Polanco in live games, so I had to go and watch a bunch of highlight video's, but I like what I see for the most part.

 

Polanco seems to have good baseball IQ all around. Good hitter, who can leg out doubles and triples. In the field, he seems to be focused and knows ahead of time what to do with the ball. I saw decent arm strength and range on multiple plays. He plays with such confidence and seems pretty smooth both offensively and defensively. He definitely doesn't have the arm strength of a Florimon or Sano from the left side, but I've seen enough from him to give him the benefit of the doubt and want to see him get more time at SS, so I can make a better decision. Either way, even if he eventually moves over to 2nd base, he has the tools be an all around solid MLB player.