Awesome brawl at Texas

gunnarthor · May 17, 2016

Players, if allowed to "police", will invariably take it too far. It's the same reason why we don't allow ourselves to police our neighborhoods. Rules and laws aren't perfect but they are much more effective and far less prone to abuse and misuse in the hands of the public. Players policing themselves has the same effect as allowing a neighborhood militia to police the neighborhood. I doubt, given your political sensibilities, that I need to flush out those consequences any further. We left the Wild West model behind for a host of reasons.

I'm not sure how you think the league is immune to taking things too far, as opposed to the players - heck the players are far more democratic than what we've seen from absolutist sports leagues. Most of us think that the NHL and NFL have seen their power grabs go too far. I think if you're starting to compare things to neighborhood militias, you've probably lost objectivity.

TheLeviathan · May 17, 2016

I'm not sure how you think the league is immune to taking things too far, as opposed to the players - heck the players are far more democratic than what we've seen from absolutist sports leagues. Most of us think that the NHL and NFL have seen their power grabs go too far. I think if you're starting to compare things to neighborhood militias, you've probably lost objectivity.

It's the same principle, neighborhood militias don't work because the escalate and retaliate too far. Just as players do. Law is meant to bring less emotion and more objectivity. Whatever reasons you would agree that Wild West justice doesn't work applies to player policing.

And the leagues aren't immune to going too far, just as our system of justice can be broken too. It's just a vastly superior model of rule enforcement than self policing through violence, intimidation, and retaliation.

gunnarthor · May 17, 2016

Yes, I could watch the video...again...for about the 20th time. As if I'd have on opinion on a play I haven't seen. Oh and I saw it when it first went down.

Well, I suspect you're wrong if you trying to imply that Odor was attempting to do anything that any MI wouldn't have done on the throw.

gunnarthor · May 17, 2016

It's the same principle, neighborhood militias don't work because the escalate and retaliate too far. Just as players do. Law is meant to bring less emotion and more objectivity. Whatever reasons you would agree that Wild West justice doesn't work applies to player policing.

And the leagues aren't immune to going too far, just as our system of justice can be broken too. It's just a vastly superior model of rule enforcement than self policing through violence, intimidation, and retaliation.

Yeah, the problem with your theory is that when we put the power in one person's hand (say Goodell), you see that he is deeply affected by outside forces. NFL needs to look tough after Ray Rice? Peterson gets a historic punishment. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. Unwritten rules - in any workplace - the violators have to answer to their co-workers. Part of your concern seems to be inflating this into criminal justice. It's not. It's a game.

TheLeviathan · May 17, 2016

Yeah, the problem with your theory is that when we put the power in one person's hand (say Goodell), you see that he is deeply affected by outside forces. NFL needs to look tough after Ray Rice? Peterson gets a historic punishment. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. Unwritten rules - in any workplace - the violators have to answer to their co-workers. Part of your concern seems to be inflating this into criminal justice. It's not. It's a game.

The NFL is the only one with concentrated power and I don't like that system either. But even then it is still more effective at promoting safe play.

If you want to bring up normal unwritten rules we can, but do you really think they are remotely comparable? No? Me either, let's just ignore that.

The principle of self "policing" draws it's own comparison to criminal justice. It puts the power of rule making and enforcement directly in the hands of people with extreme bias, varying moral codes, amd varying degrees of belief about enforcement. Enforcement, by the way, totally reliant on violence and intimidation. The exact same reasons why vigilante and self policing I real justice never work. The enforcers of the rules become their own form of violators and we end up no better than we started. Often worse off.

biggentleben · May 17, 2016

I read this morning Chavez was tossed.

He was immediately. I don't know how that wasn't clear. The ump threw him out as soon as the ball hit Fielder.

notoriousgod71 · May 17, 2016

In my opinion.......

Bautista intended to taunt the Rangers with his bat flip last season, Bush intended to hit Bautista yesterday, Bautista intended to take out Odor with his slide, Odor intended to drill him in the face with his throw, Odor intended to punch him as hard as he could, the Blue Jays intended to attack Odor, the Blue Jays intended to drill the first guy up next inning.

I love all of it. And I will contently accept being in the minority of that opinion.

Dr. Evil · May 17, 2016

Bautista put himself in danger of being hit with that throw. The middle infielder is not trained to throw around the runner. You make your pivot and throw.

Throwing at batters to begin with is stupid. Bautista already made an ass of himself in the playoffs. If you want revenge, punch him in the scoreboard or strike him out. Don't join assfest yourself.

KirbyDome89 · May 17, 2016

You're comparing apples to oranges. Goddell over-stepping his bounds is a totally different issue. You made the claim that players policing themselves helps the game. What, exactly, has that ever helped with and how?

I'll give you just one example of how the game - using rules and fines - has impacted the game almost immediately: the catcher collision rules have all but eliminated the worst of those plays (one happened this weekend and it was the first in a long time) and players are healthier and the game continues on. There are dozens and dozens of examples across sports of how leagues have changed what happens on the field with rules.

Players running around hitting each other after the whistle? Cross-checking the other team's star player? Head hunting for bat flips?

Solved NOTHING. Ever.

I think its a very apples to apples comparison. What would be a closer comparison to MLB other than another professional sports league in America thats run by a commissioner? Goodell overstepping his bounds is totally relevant to what I'm saying. I think you're misunderstanding my posts. I never claimed that there is a group of "good guy" players policing and cleaning up the game. I said that I liked the fact that stuff is handled on the field. Thats where Goodell ties in. The NFL has a commissioner with too much power who dishes out punishment inconsistently whenever and wherever he sees fit. A lot of people are unhappy with that. That was point I was making about both sides taking things too far. Yes players can get out of control but we've also seen what happens when a league office has too much power as well.

There are already rules in place to dissuade players from "brawling." They're thrown out of the game, fined, and possibly suspended. It still won't stop it from ever happening again. NO rules operate at 100% efficiency and just because they don't, it doesn't mean they're ineffective. That is the point I think you're missing. More rules and regulation isn't the answer.

DocBauer · May 17, 2016

To quote Sherman T Potter: "Horsehockey!"

I have always held a somewhat grudging respect for baseball and it's various "unwritten rules". I believe the true appeal and greatness of sport is the competition and the strive to win. I believe and respect in leaving it all on the field. In the competition lies the true greatness. And while I sometimes think baseball gets a little higher and mighty in those unwritten rules...I mean come on, a huge SO or HR or game winning hit deserves a fist pump or bat flip doesn't it?...I also respect, in any sport, competition and success with some level of quality and class.

If you score a TD in football, spike the ball if you will, hug and high 5 your teammates, but cool it at that. Wasn't your intent to score? Then act like you expected it, have done it before, and expect/intend to do it again. And screw a sack dance or 1st down wave when your team is getting blown out 35-10.

Unless I got completely confused today when watching debate and examples on ESPN today as this issue was being discussed...please tell me if I'm mistaken...a highlite was shown of a game in which Odor slid way left and wide of 2nd base in a game and spiked the opposing player in the calf. Bautista may not be well liked, and have a reputation, but what's good for the Goose is also good for the gander. (OMG does that line make me sound old)

Regardless, you NEVER try to hurt another player. I don't care if it's deliberately targeting a knee, taking a stick to someone's face, sliding with metal spikes in to somebody's body, or throwing a 90 FB at someone's head. That is bush, cheap, extremely non sportsman like, and borderline assault.

formerly33 · May 17, 2016

That is bush, cheap, extremely non sportsman like, and borderline assault.

That made me laugh because if this happened anywhere other than on a professional sports field, it would be treated as assault. :rolleyes:

USAFChief · May 17, 2016

Harmon Killebrew hit a lot of HRs and never got thrown at.

Lots of fault to go around here, but if Bautista acts like a pro last fall, none of this happens.

TheLeviathan · May 17, 2016

Harmon Killebrew hit a lot of HRs and never got thrown at.
Lots of fault to go around here, but if Bautista acts like a pro last fall, none of this happens.

By "pro" you mean "robot" I assume?

Not to mention Andrew McCutcheon has never pimped a homerun and he's still been head-hunted multiple times.

TheLeviathan · May 17, 2016

What would be a closer comparison to MLB other than another professional sports league in America thats run by a commissioner? Goodell overstepping his bounds is totally relevant to what I'm saying. I think you're misunderstanding my posts. I never claimed that there is a group of "good guy" players policing and cleaning up the game. I said that I liked the fact that stuff is handled on the field. Thats where Goodell ties in. The NFL has a commissioner with too much power who dishes out punishment inconsistently whenever and wherever he sees fit. A lot of people are unhappy with that. That was point I was making about both sides taking things too far. Yes players can get out of control but we've also seen what happens when a league office has too much power as well.

There are already rules in place to dissuade players from "brawling." They're thrown out of the game, fined, and possibly suspended. It still won't stop it from ever happening again. NO rules operate at 100% efficiency and just because they don't, it doesn't mean they're ineffective. That is the point I think you're missing. More rules and regulation isn't the answer.

How about we compare leagues with a more similarly collectively bargained arrangement for discipline procedures like the NBA or the NHL? The NFL is more like a dictatorship, I don't recommend that model either. But, I'll admit, in the hands of a good dictator it's still probably better than players purely self-policing. At least then there is only one person drawing the line and not-hundreds of variable ones players are trying to dance around.

And the thing is, as inconsistent as you think Goddell is with enforcement - players are so much worse. That's why a guy got thrown at for bunting against the shift last year in the second inning. And why a guy got thrown at for stealing second in a 2-0 game. That's why we had a brawl yesterday over a bat flip 6 months ago. Baseball front offices have never "gone too far" so your entire argument is moot. But players sure as hell have.

No rules fix everything 100%, but they dramatically reduce stupidity and over-zealous self-enforcement. If you let players police things you will invariably get a Chase Utley slide. Or a Todd Bertuzzi assault. No matter how unjust a suspension or fine is - it never has risk of putting a guy in a hospital over some arbitrary code of behavior.

biggentleben · May 17, 2016

Harmon Killebrew hit a lot of HRs and never got thrown at.

Lots of fault to go around here, but if Bautista acts like a pro last fall, none of this happens.

He was hit 48 times in his career. You're saying none of them were ever after a home run? Nevermind times that the ball missed him and didn't result in an HBP. Selective memory bias...

gil4 · May 17, 2016

what did Bautista do again exactly? Oh yeah, he hit a game winning home run against them in the playoffs, clearly that deserves a cheap shot to the face and a bean ball.

That slide was dirty even by the old standards. In the aftermath, Odor and Bautista both behaved badly. The difference is Odor actually knows how to throw a punch. I'm not sure why we would punish Bautista less on account of poor form.

KirbyDome89 · May 17, 2016

How about we compare leagues with a more similarly collectively bargained arrangement for discipline procedures like the NBA or the NHL? The NFL is more like a dictatorship, I don't recommend that model either. But, I'll admit, in the hands of a good dictator it's still probably better than players purely self-policing. At least then there is only one person drawing the line and not-hundreds of variable ones players are trying to dance around.

And the thing is, as inconsistent as you think Goddell is with enforcement - players are so much worse. That's why a guy got thrown at for bunting against the shift last year in the second inning. And why a guy got thrown at for stealing second in a 2-0 game. That's why we had a brawl yesterday over a bat flip 6 months ago. Baseball front offices have never "gone too far" so your entire argument is moot. But players sure as hell have.

No rules fix everything 100%, but they dramatically reduce stupidity and over-zealous self-enforcement. If you let players police things you will invariably get a Chase Utley slide. Or a Todd Bertuzzi assault. No matter how unjust a suspension or fine is - it never has risk of putting a guy in a hospital over some arbitrary code of behavior.

Ok either you're not reading what I'm saying or you're just not understanding it because a lot of this back and forth is about points I haven't made. The players aren't "purely self policing." They have a small bit of power to settle things on the field but ultimately the league FO has the final say and regularly hands out punishment. They are in NO WAY "purely self policing," they're not a "militia,"either and nobody is advocating for that to happen. I never stated that and Idk where you're getting that from my comments but hopefully this is clear now.

Also I never said baseball FO have "gone too far." My point was that by ceding what power they have to the MLB offices the players set up a situation where you can have a Goodell/NFL debacle. Its like you mentioned above, MLB has a strong CB agreement which is why we haven't seen an NFL like scenario. I'm very glad it hasn't gotten to that point. It sounds like you are too?

Finally, physical altercations are ALREADY against the rules. The Bertuzzi hit wasn't legal and all of a sudden a rule was put in place to prevent another incident. That was a dirty hit by a player with no regard for the rules. Its actually a perfect example of what I've said; just because a rule is in place doesn't mean it is always followed. Fights on the field are against the rules in almost every sport (thanks hockey) yet they continue to happen. Is there a perfect solution to preventing them? No. You can't control how the players are going to act throughout the duration of every game.

If you want to compare MLB to hockey and the NBA then I'm fine with that too. We still hard fouls at the rim and fights on the court in the NBA, I would say thats very comparable to a hbp and charging the mound. I've already touched on the fights we see in hockey games too. The Utley slide rule isn't exactly a home run either; I'm sure the Blue Jays would like to have back the game that rule cost them earlier this year.

tl;dr

If it doesn't need fixing don't try to fix it. Adding more rules on top of those that already exist won't prevent fights on the field but they can make life more difficult for players trying to stay within the rules of the game.

SwainZag · May 17, 2016

He definitely was throwing it directly at JoeyBatts face.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/tca-jose-bautista-gets-punched-in-fa-20160516-premiumvideo.html

If he doesn't put his arm up it hits him in the ribs. Unless you have some video of Bush claiming to throwing at his head I don't see how you can say that.

Edit: This video was much harder to find than I would have expected

USMCTwin · May 17, 2016

http://www.chicagotribune.com/tca-jose-bautista-gets-punched-in-fa-20160516-premiumvideo.html

If he doesn't put his arm up it hits him in the ribs. Unless you have some video of Bush claiming to throwing at his head I don't see how you can say that.

Edit: This video was much harder to find than I would have expected

The claim is, though I haven't seen good video on it, is Odor was throwing at Bautista face on the throw to first.

DaveW · May 17, 2016

http://www.chicagotribune.com/tca-jose-bautista-gets-punched-in-fa-20160516-premiumvideo.html

If he doesn't put his arm up it hits him in the ribs. Unless you have some video of Bush claiming to throwing at his head I don't see how you can say that.

Edit: This video was much harder to find than I would have expected

Odor's throw.

Vanimal46 · May 17, 2016

Odor suspended 8 games and fined $5k.

TheLeviathan · May 17, 2016

Also I never said baseball FO have "gone too far." My point was that by ceding what power they have to the MLB offices the players set up a situation where you can have a Goodell/NFL debacle. Its like you mentioned above, MLB has a strong CB agreement which is why we haven't seen an NFL like scenario. I'm very glad it hasn't gotten to that point. It sounds like you are too?

Finally, physical altercations are ALREADY against the rules. The Bertuzzi hit wasn't legal and all of a sudden a rule was put in place to prevent another incident. That was a dirty hit by a player with no regard for the rules. Its actually a perfect example of what I've said; just because a rule is in place doesn't mean it is always followed. Fights on the field are against the rules in almost every sport (thanks hockey) yet they continue to happen. Is there a perfect solution to preventing them? No. You can't control how the players are going to act throughout the duration of every game.

If you want to compare MLB to hockey and the NBA then I'm fine with that too. We still hard fouls at the rim and fights on the court in the NBA, I would say thats very comparable to a hbp and charging the mound. I've already touched on the fights we see in hockey games too. The Utley slide rule isn't exactly a home run either; I'm sure the Blue Jays would like to have back the game that rule cost them earlier this year.

tl;dr
If it doesn't need fixing don't try to fix it. Adding more rules on top of those that already exist won't prevent fights on the field but they can make life more difficult for players trying to stay within the rules of the game.

Let's take this all by paragraph:

1) The league is hammering down on this stuff, starting with the catcher collisions and this year the take out slides. And they are trying to get rid of throwing at people over perceived slights. I hope they do more of it. You seem to be saying that unless players are allowed to intimidate and attack each other, it suddenly becomes a Goddell situation.

MLB, NHL, and NBA all have strong systems and rules that are trying to do away with self-policing and it's working. I hope they continue it until self-policing is gone completely from the game. Just play the game and let the governing body set the rules.

2) Of course what Bertuzi and Odor and even what Bush did are illegal. The point is that you have to take away their ability to feel justified and empowered to go that far. We haven't had another Bertuzzi in the NHL because they absolutely cracked down on self-policing. They are moving towards fighting being abolished too. The only major argument against it? Players think not-fighting will somehow make them less safe. Why? Because they believe, like baseball players, that they get to decide what level of violence is dealt out in order to keep things balanced. Yet as long as that power has been given to them it emboldens chumps like Bertuzzi to go too far. Just go read what he said after that assault. He thought he was standing up for what was right. He was policing conduct on the ice. Just like Bush was policing it at Bautista's face. And Bautista at Odor's legs. And Odor at Bautista's face. Leave it up to them to police and they WILL take it too far.

Leave it to the league and they'll be far more impartial and far less violent.

3) Nothing in the NBA is happening like it use to. They've eliminated large scale brawls. Hockey is cutting down on checks from behind, boarding, and other dangerous hits. Fighting is coming. And in every one of those cases the game continues to be played and players are safer doing it. Baseball will happen and it needs to happen too. The last two years have been glorious steps in the right direction. Get used to it. The days of being able to hurt each other in the name of playing the game right (a preposterous concept in and of itself) are ending.

4) What "needs fixing" is in the eye of the beholder. But I'm generally of the opinion that safer play is always better. And I'm always in favor of rules being enforced as objectively as possible and with as little violence as necessary. Yeah...players will act like jack$%$#. But the thing is - if you punish them harshly enough for it - they will reform their game and change. Hockey is seeing it happen. Baseball can too and I'm glad to see the league deciding that it's time to do it. This may spur further action and I hope it does.

KirbyDome89 · May 18, 2016

Let's take this all by paragraph:

1) The league is hammering down on this stuff, starting with the catcher collisions and this year the take out slides. And they are trying to get rid of throwing at people over perceived slights. I hope they do more of it. You seem to be saying that unless players are allowed to intimidate and attack each other, it suddenly becomes a Goddell situation.

MLB, NHL, and NBA all have strong systems and rules that are trying to do away with self-policing and it's working. I hope they continue it until self-policing is gone completely from the game. Just play the game and let the governing body set the rules.

2) Of course what Bertuzi and Odor and even what Bush did are illegal. The point is that you have to take away their ability to feel justified and empowered to go that far. We haven't had another Bertuzzi in the NHL because they absolutely cracked down on self-policing. They are moving towards fighting being abolished too. The only major argument against it? Players think not-fighting will somehow make them less safe. Why? Because they believe, like baseball players, that they get to decide what level of violence is dealt out in order to keep things balanced. Yet as long as that power has been given to them it emboldens chumps like Bertuzzi to go too far. Just go read what he said after that assault. He thought he was standing up for what was right. He was policing conduct on the ice. Just like Bush was policing it at Bautista's face. And Bautista at Odor's legs. And Odor at Bautista's face. Leave it up to them to police and they WILL take it too far.

Leave it to the league and they'll be far more impartial and far less violent.

3) Nothing in the NBA is happening like it use to. They've eliminated large scale brawls. Hockey is cutting down on checks from behind, boarding, and other dangerous hits. Fighting is coming. And in every one of those cases the game continues to be played and players are safer doing it. Baseball will happen and it needs to happen too. The last two years have been glorious steps in the right direction. Get used to it. The days of being able to hurt each other in the name of playing the game right (a preposterous concept in and of itself) are ending.

4) What "needs fixing" is in the eye of the beholder. But I'm generally of the opinion that safer play is always better. And I'm always in favor of rules being enforced as objectively as possible and with as little violence as necessary. Yeah...players will act like jack$%$#. But the thing is - if you punish them harshly enough for it - they will reform their game and change. Hockey is seeing it happen. Baseball can too and I'm glad to see the league deciding that it's time to do it. This may spur further action and I hope it does.

Ok I'm all for the paragraph breakdown:

1) That isn't at all what I've said and if you can't understand that don't bother reading any further because I'm sure you'll be just as lost reading the rest. If you do understand my previous posts then feel free to stop reducing them to absurdity. Here comes a line you've heard before. The players operate under the rules laid out by a governing body. They aren't a separate entity that doesn't recognize the regulations of MLB. The "self policing," is like a neighborhood watch, citizens can work together to make sure the neighborhood stays clean but ultimately the only real power lies with the police. Can we move past this militia idea now?

2) Again, I never said the game would be more safe if players are "brawling." What I said was that a guy like Bertuzzi clearly had no regard for the rules and took a cheap shot at another player. My point is that if a guy wants to act that way he is going to. You can have all the rules and regulations you want but it isn't going to end fighting. What I said was there are already rules in place to try to prevent those actions, we don't need any more unnecessary rules.

3) Hard fouls don't happen in the NBA? Did you watch any games this year? I'll say it again, these actions are unavoidable, players are going to fight regardless of the rules. Your beloved slide rule is a perfect example of this. Why did Odor punch Bautista? Because Bautista tried to spike him, a move that is legal even within the parameters of the shiny new slide rule.

4) I'm not advocating for baseball to be a blood bath. I would much rather watch a clean game than a bunch of guys fighting. You said you want the rules enforced objectively yet you're fine with punishments for perceived slights? Idk how you objectively judge something that subjective. Honestly, baseball getting to that point is what I'm worried about. To me that is creeping into Goodell/NFL territory which I don't believe is good for the game. IMO all that brings is a bunch of controversy over ejections and suspensions/fines without a drastic change in the amount of on field fighting.

5) I guess we'll chalk this up to a fundamental disagreement on politics.

TheLeviathan · May 18, 2016

2) Again, I never said the game would be more safe if players are "brawling." What I said was that a guy like Bertuzzi clearly had no regard for the rules and took a cheap shot at another player. My point is that if a guy wants to act that way he is going to. You can have all the rules and regulations you want but it isn't going to end fighting. What I said was there are already rules in place to try to prevent those actions, we don't need any more unnecessary rules.

3) Hard fouls don't happen in the NBA? Did you watch any games this year? I'll say it again, these actions are unavoidable, players are going to fight regardless of the rules. Your beloved slide rule is a perfect example of this. Why did Odor punch Bautista? Because Bautista tried to spike him, a move that is legal even within the parameters of the shiny new slide rule.

4) I'm not advocating for baseball to be a blood bath. I would much rather watch a clean game than a bunch of guys fighting. You said you want the rules enforced objectively yet you're fine with punishments for perceived slights? Idk how you objectively judge something that subjective. Honestly, baseball getting to that point is what I'm worried about. To me that is creeping into Goodell/NFL territory which I don't believe is good for the game. IMO all that brings is a bunch of controversy over ejections and suspensions/fines without a drastic change in the amount of on field fighting.

5) I guess we'll chalk this up to a fundamental disagreement on politics.

1) Have you missed some of the recent issues with neighborhood watches?

2) Actually, Bertuzzi had a full grasp of the rules and the unwritten rules and he took them into his own hands. The problem is allowing the unwritten rule to operate at all. When you do, players feel they supercede the real ones. Then the violence happens.

3) Hard fouls happen, but brawls don't break out. Bat flips and slides shouldn't result in brawls or even guys being thrown at. They do because in MLB, unlike the NBA, players still believe their set of rules go beyond the ones set by the league. Hell, even in a MUCH more physical game like the NHL there has been a reduction in brawling/fighting because the rules are changing the culture. The unwritten rules are nonsense that has to be broken and at least two other leagues that used to operate with them are effectively disposing of them.

4) You fine people the same way the NHL does. Does it still involve an arbiter making a decision that isn't always agreed with? Sure, but it's not the player in the heat of the action deciding what punishment the infraction deserves. There is a gigantic difference. Has it been perfect for the NHL? Nope, never will be. But you know what it is? MUCH safer and it's forcing a change in behavior and the way in which players treat one another.

Something the unwritten rules have never accomplished and, often, have accomplished the exact opposite- more violence and intimidation.

KirbyDome89 · May 18, 2016

1) Have you missed some of the recent issues with neighborhood watches?

2) Actually, Bertuzzi had a full grasp of the rules and the unwritten rules and he took them into his own hands. The problem is allowing the unwritten rule to operate at all. When you do, players feel they supercede the real ones. Then the violence happens.

3) Hard fouls happen, but brawls don't break out. Bat flips and slides shouldn't result in brawls or even guys being thrown at. They do because in MLB, unlike the NBA, players still believe their set of rules go beyond the ones set by the league. Hell, even in a MUCH more physical game like the NHL there has been a reduction in brawling/fighting because the rules are changing the culture. The unwritten rules are nonsense that has to be broken and at least two other leagues that used to operate with them are effectively disposing of them.

4) You fine people the same way the NHL does. Does it still involve an arbiter making a decision that isn't always agreed with? Sure, but it's not the player in the heat of the action deciding what punishment the infraction deserves. There is a gigantic difference. Has it been perfect for the NHL? Nope, never will be. But you know what it is? MUCH safer and it's forcing a change in behavior and the way in which players treat one another.

Something the unwritten rules have never accomplished and, often, have accomplished the exact opposite- more violence and intimidation.

1) Again if all you can do is argue the point to absurdity then just skip it and move on

2) Honestly Idk how to make it more clear. There was NOTHING that was going to stop Bertuzzi or anybody else who wants to act like that. It isn't in the "unwritten rules," to take a cheap shot at an opponent and put their life in jeopardy. That was a decision one man made in one game, not because it was in the "unwritten rules," but because he became angry and made a terrible decision. People make emotional and irrational decisions all the time, that is why they're called irrational decisions.

3) So no fighting occurs in the NBA? There is a 15 minute video on youtube covering the NBA fights JUST THIS YEAR. I have a hard time believing that the NHL also experiences less fighting than MLB too. Fights happen in all sports. Its a competitive and high stakes environment and people will act out emotionally at times. Considering the number of games played in a baseball season "brawls," are not that common. When they do occur they're little more than some jawing and maybe pushing. So once again, you're NOT going to eradicate fighting.You can't break a set of unwritten rules because they technically don't exist. That is why they're unwritten. I've already explained my position on the addition of more rules to the game. I think I've been very clear in stating that I don't care about unwritten rules and I don't think they make the game more safe. That wasn't the argument. The argument was whether more rules needed to put into place to eliminate fighting during games. My stance is that fighting is already against the rules and it isn't stopping them now, so why would adding more rules make a difference? As I said in the previous post I don't want to see ejections, suspensions, and fines handed out subjectively and I think that is exactly what will happen if more rules are enacted. You made it clear that you would support that!

4) They are fined, and they are suspended. You saw that Odor is out for 8 games right?

glunn · May 18, 2016

Moderator note -- if you cannot be respectful in this debate then please refrain from posting here. Otherwise you risk losing your posting privileges.

TheLeviathan · May 18, 2016

1) Again if all you can do is argue the point to absurdity then just skip it and move on

2) Honestly Idk how to make it more clear. There was NOTHING that was going to stop Bertuzzi or anybody else who wants to act like that. It isn't in the "unwritten rules," to take a cheap shot at an opponent and put their life in jeopardy. That was a decision one man made in one game, not because it was in the "unwritten rules," but because he became angry and made a terrible decision. People make emotional and irrational decisions all the time, that is why they're called irrational decisions.

3) So no fighting occurs in the NBA? There is a 15 minute video on youtube covering the NBA fights JUST THIS YEAR. I have a hard time believing that the NHL also experiences less fighting than MLB too. Fights happen in all sports. Its a competitive and high stakes environment and people will act out emotionally at times. Considering the number of games played in a baseball season "brawls," are not that common. When they do occur they're little more than some jawing and maybe pushing. So once again, you're NOT going to eradicate fighting.You can't break a set of unwritten rules because they technically don't exist. That is why they're unwritten. I've already explained my position on the addition of more rules to the game. I think I've been very clear in stating that I don't care about unwritten rules and I don't think they make the game more safe. That wasn't the argument. The argument was whether more rules needed to put into place to eliminate fighting during games. My stance is that fighting is already against the rules and it isn't stopping them now, so why would adding more rules make a difference? As I said in the previous post I don't want to see ejections, suspensions, and fines handed out subjectively and I think that is exactly what will happen if more rules are enacted. You made it clear that you would support that!

4) They are fined, and they are suspended. You saw that Odor is out for 8 games right?

1) I think you've just failed to see how any form of unregulated, self-policing comes with inherent problems of fairness and serious risk.

2) The NHL hasn't had a Bertuzzi incident in quite some time. You should read more about the Bertuzzi assault. It was clearly a team that felt it needed to self-police the game and Bertuzzi took it in his hands. (The language is clear unwritten rules stuff about "respecting leading scorers", etc.) The league has cracked down on this mindset and made it clear that it will harshly punish players so that teams never feel like they have to do this. All baseball has to do is the same.

3) I claimed the NHL is reducing it's level of fighting, I didn't compare it to MLB. I said the NHL's recent changes are making it safer, cutting down on fights, and even squeezing enforcers out of jobs. In other words - league rules are working. The self-policing style of Todd Bertuzzi never accomplished this. It accomplished an assault that is still haunting one man.

Fighting in baseball, almost always, starts and stops with someone breaking "the code". This started with a bat flip and an attempted retaliation. I can pretty much guarantee every brawl starts similarly. In fact, there is one story that talks aobut a majority of them starting for racial reasons.

So the real way to stop fighting/brawling is to make players understand that unwritten rules are no longer to be self-policed by players. The league has to step in and more harshly punish the events that lead to these incidents. That means guys who throw at people need to sit for a long time and eat some hefty fines. Any timea player intentionally tries to intimidate someone with violence they need to eat a healthy penalty for it. That will change things (as other leagues are showing) and it will make the game safer.

formerly33 · May 18, 2016

Should MLB consider the inscription of unwritten rules in order to ban them?

TheLeviathan · May 18, 2016

Should MLB consider the inscription of unwritten rules in order to ban them?

I think, to a degree, they already do. The problem is that no one agrees on what the code is, it sort of changes based on who feels like enforcing it. Hence why we had a guy thrown at for stealing up 2-0 and other nonsense like that.

I think the rule changes at home and second are a step towards exactly this. I expect in the near future we'll see another increase in the punishment for throwing at players.

gunnarthor · May 18, 2016

Should MLB consider the inscription of unwritten rules in order to ban them?

I suppose it's what you think the unwritten rules cover. It's just the behavior of the game - they evolve with the players over time. This involves things like do not throw at a batters' head to kangaroo courts in the locker room to how you're supposed to treat ball boys. On field stuff, it's mostly about respecting your opponent so I'm not sure what the written rule would be - disrespect the opposing team and lose an out? Seems silly.

I recommend reading Jason Turbow's very good book on the subject - the Baseball Codes. It's a very entertaining book and he has a website that discusses the code on current issues.

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