A Losing Culture

[jokin]

 

The Red Sox had Shaw, a minor league 3b, playing outfield last year in the majors and hitting well.

 

And the Sox have had a succession of "up and coming 3Bs" who failed at the position.

[Rosterman]

Good post.

 

But, yes, what is the Twins Way.

 

Why is Dozier leading off. Especially today. Wouldn't you throw Escobar up there just because...

 

But where does Dozier fit. #3. Cleanup? Deeper down. And Mauer, no longer the best #3 hitter, but why bat second if no one is on base anyways. Might as well bat him leadoff.

 

Park is/was a bargain. But he will have a learning curve. This is American League abseball. He ahs to learn the stadiums, the pitchers. It is a different game.

 

And, yes, I would've put Sano at third and regulated Plouffe to the outfield, until we saw if Sano was a butcher at third or not. Sano would be the Twins third baseman in 2017 or 2018. So why not in 2016. Ploufee will not be a Twin in 2017 or 2018 as his salary will be better spent elsewhere. Like Dougie and A.J. in the past, even though both had good solid years remaining, he is being pushed aside for the future,

 

If Buxton is indeed overmatched, send him down to AAA. Or course, it works better if Danny Santana is a placesetter in centerfield. You have no roster spot for adding Mastro. But if you want Buxton to learn, let him bat leadoff for awhile., You did itwith Hicks. Equal play for equal prospect.

 

I'm not sure what the Twins sorted out in spring training, except that the rotation, so far, has been above par.

 

Us arm chair general managers and field managers can second guess everything.

 

The Twins DO have hopes of being in contention and winning it all (every team markets that). But they are still rebuilding and they have a horrible time cutting loose salary. If anything, below average play will make them more likely to move Suzuki, Plouffe, rearrange the bullpen, and field offers for rotation guys who are pitching their heart out whlie the offense falters for some reason unheard of in the annals of Twins history.

 

 

[jsteve96]

 

Struggled initially was my intent.  Sorry it came across differently.  My point was that Buxton, like most players, has struggled initially after almost every promotion he has had.  To expect him to hit the ground running this year was unrealistic, and the Twins should have known better.  The key with players like this is to let them work it out on the biggest stage.  Demoting him will only stunt his growth further.

 

You state he is not being asked to carry the team, and I question how you can say that.  Yes, he isn't being asked to hit in the 3 spot, but who is this team marketing?  Who have they said they are counting on to be the future of the franchise?  The Twins have marketed Sano and Buxton as the saviors of the franchise.  They are what is going to take us from a bad team to a good team.  How is that setting these kids up for success?  I would challenge you argue that there are more than 2 other players whose names are more recognizable than Sano and Buxton to the average fan.  Mauer and Dozier.  You could probably argue Perkins, but that is pretty much it.

I'd argue that Dozier and Sano are the 2 names people would say, thats who I'd say right now. hoping buxton gets there.. if you can't handle pressure you shouldn't play in the MLB

[gocgo]

"The rose goes in the front big guy"

 

I think we should take up a collection and send a bunch of lingerie to the Twins clubhouse...whatever it takes to get these guys mentally on track.

[Sam Morley]

I think I had a similar reaction to this post as many others, in that I strongly agreed with some points and strongly disagreed with others.

 

First, I don't fully understand the fascination with the concept of the Twins Way that is 'out there'. It seems to be this thing that sort of developed out of the Twins marketing dept, slash out of nowhere, as a way to get people to accept and root for a team with substandard talent and a management staff unwilling to acquire more when needed. It's contingent with the false concept that the Twins are a small market team. It seems like when this concept of the team is voiced, it's something along the lines of 'the Twins are a team of scrappy hard workers, they're piranhas'. This post doesn't focus on scrappiness so much, but rather on 'fundamentals'. My problem with this is that all major league teams practice fundamentals to perfection pretty much all the time. No one is out there doing anything fundamentally wrong at this level- I would argue that it's not even possible. It was a mistake, and maybe even a curse, to accept and embrace Ozzie Guillen's insult as a compliment when he called the team piranhas. We beat his Sox because we were better than them, not because we played some weird brand of scrappy try-hard and do the fundamentals baseball. If you go back and look at those teams, we had great players- some scrappy guys too- but then, all said and done, we probably needed a few more great players. But we embraced that annoying false identity and it's sandbagged us for a decade.

 

This post is spot on with it's take on Sano. Said it pretty much perfectly. There is no way that Sano's transition to the outfield is not affecting his performance at the plate. Unless he looked totally comfortable and effortless out there, he would have to be mentally affected and distracted from his most important responsibility, which is at the plate. We have seen Sano play third base, and he is good at it. He is not as good as Plouffe, but he probably with time will be better. He has better raw tools than Plouffe, better range and a better arm. He just doesn't have the time in yet. The only reason he's not playing third is because the management is overly attached to Plouffe. As others have said, I like Plouffe. He's a good player. It would be sad to see him go. He was a Twins' draftee. We watched him ascend through the minors. We watched him struggle and emerge. He weathered several terrible losing seasons and deserves to be rewarded for his diligence and patience. In an ideal world, we would somehow keep them both. But, he has to go. A role player from one of the worst four season stretches in franchise history is blocking possibly the one of the best players in franchise history from playing his position- forcing him to playing an unnatural position, and hindering his performance. It doesn't even matter if his trade value is 'not that high'- it would be okay if all we got was a few low level minor league marginal prospects. 

 

The other thing that jumped out at me was the take on Buxton, specifically that he's being expected to carry the offense. I guess I just wanted to affirm what others have said. He's not expected to carry the offense. He's batting 9th. There are 8 other players who are expected to carry more offensive weight than he is. I think, as opposed to Sano, they are doing what they can to protect Buxton and alleviate as much pressure from him as possible. 

 

I think the mentions of Santana and May really bolster the post's main point that the org doesn't seem to have a plan for the development of its young players, and is willing to sacrifice said development for whimsical, desperate stop-gap solutions. Seems like a good way to squander a flush farm system. 

[old nurse]

 

And the Sox have had a succession of "up and coming 3Bs" who failed at the position.

Your point was about the current situation. Shaw hit well for his first half season last year. There was absolutely no reason for Boston to trade for Plouffe over the winter given Shaw's potential unless it was a Sandoval for Plouffe swap or someone else to take Sandoval. Nobody took Sandoval. Nobody is going to take Sandoval. The past history of  Cechinni and Middlebrooks have absolutely no bearing in this.  The notion that Plouffe was tradable is a myth that will not go away.

[chopper0080]

 

I'd argue that Dozier and Sano are the 2 names people would say, thats who I'd say right now. hoping buxton gets there.. if you can't handle pressure you shouldn't play in the MLB

 

But is adding unnecessary pressure any way to help a player adjust and develop?  Are you basing a plan on what players should be able to do, or what they have shown they are able to do?  I would argue that the latter leads to a higher success rate, and success is the goal.

[Mike Sixel]

I do wonder who the vocal leader is.......we have no way of knowing, but it also appears there isn't one. 

[chopper0080]

 

I think I had a similar reaction to this post as many others, in that I strongly agreed with some points and strongly disagreed with others.

 

First, I don't fully understand the fascination with the concept of the Twins Way that is 'out there'. It seems to be this thing that sort of developed out of the Twins marketing dept, slash out of nowhere, as a way to get people to accept and root for a team with substandard talent and a management staff unwilling to acquire more when needed. It's contingent with the false concept that the Twins are a small market team. It seems like when this concept of the team is voiced, it's something along the lines of 'the Twins are a team of scrappy hard workers, they're piranhas'. This post doesn't focus on scrappiness so much, but rather on 'fundamentals'. My problem with this is that all major league teams practice fundamentals to perfection pretty much all the time. No one is out there doing anything fundamentally wrong at this level- I would argue that it's not even possible. It was a mistake, and maybe even a curse, to accept and embrace Ozzie Guillen's insult as a compliment when he called the team piranhas. We beat his Sox because we were better than them, not because we played some weird brand of scrappy try-hard and do the fundamentals baseball. If you go back and look at those teams, we had great players- some scrappy guys too- but then, all said and done, we probably needed a few more great players. But we embraced that annoying false identity and it's sandbagged us for a decade.

 

The other thing that jumped out at me was the take on Buxton, specifically that he's being expected to carry the offense. I guess I just wanted to affirm what others have said. He's not expected to carry the offense. He's batting 9th. There are 8 other players who are expected to carry more offensive weight than he is. I think, as opposed to Sano, they are doing what they can to protect Buxton and alleviate as much pressure from him as possible. 

 

If you want to examine the lack of fundamentals in major league baseball, look at the impact of defensive shifts.  Some teams work on bunting, hitting behind the runner, hitting sac flys, and hitting to places on the field.  Others do not.    Most MLB baseballs teams expect their players to have this knowledge and do not commit valuable time to working on those aspects of the game, but some do.  The Twins used to be one of those teams because that is what they needed to do to win.  They have gotten away from that, and IMO, gotten away from any sort or identity at all.  Are they a power hitting team?  A contact hitting team?  Do they work counts?  Attack pitchers early?  Pull hitters?  Hitters who try to drive the ball the opposite way?  This team has no consistent approach or strategy day in and day out other than "winning" which they haven't done in years.  

 

My point bringing up the past Twins isn't that their approach is the correct approach, it was that they had an approach.  The Twins knew how they wanted to win games.  They had an identity.  They taught that to players at every level.  They acquired players who fit and were able to execute that plan.  I don't see any sort of identity with this team, and it is highlighted by the Twins inability execute in pressure situations with runners in scoring position or pitching with a lead late.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The purpose of trading Plouffe is to put Sano there........not to get anything in return. Also, to free up money to spend on the bullpen (or not).

 

Now, if you don't think Sano can play 3B....why didn't he take fly balls last year? Why did he never play the OF in the minors? Did they come to that conclusion over the off season?

While I think this entire situation is bizarre and badly managed, trading away production for nothing just to clear space is bad practice 100% of the time.

 

Maybe you turn Plouffe into a super-utlity guy or put him in an OF role but trading him for nothing "just because" is a terrible plan.

[Mike Sixel]

 

While I think this entire situation is bizarre and badly managed, trading away production for nothing just to clear space is bad practice 100% of the time.

Maybe you turn Plouffe into a super-utlity guy or put him in an OF role but trading him for nothing "just because" is a terrible plan.

 

That's fine......

 

but you aren't trading him for nothing. You are freeing up $8MM. You are freeing up a position for your best prospect. 

 

It's not different than offering early retirement to clear space for younger IT workers.......so no, it isn't 100% bad 100% of the time.

[chopper0080]

 

While I think this entire situation is bizarre and badly managed, trading away production for nothing just to clear space is bad practice 100% of the time.

Maybe you turn Plouffe into a super-utlity guy or put him in an OF role but trading him for nothing "just because" is a terrible plan.

 

Agreed.  There is value to having players like Plouffe on a roster who young players like Sano have to work to push out of positions.  I think holding onto Plouffe was a very smart move in the short term.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Agreed.  There is value to having players like Plouffe on a roster who young players like Sano have to work to push out of positions.  I think holding onto Plouffe was a very smart move in the short term.

 

What more would Sano have to do than what he did last year, to push him off the team? Be even more awesomer?

[Platoon]

If you want to examine the lack of fundamentals in major league baseball, look at the impact of defensive shifts.  Some teams work on bunting, hitting behind the runner, hitting sac flys, and hitting to places on the field.  Others do not.    Most MLB baseballs teams expect their players to have this knowledge and do not commit valuable time to working on those aspects of the game, but some do.  The Twins used to be one of those teams because that is what they needed to do to win.  They have gotten away from that, and IMO, gotten away from any sort or identity at all.  Are they a power hitting team?  A contact hitting team?  Do they work counts?  Attack pitchers early?  Pull hitters?  Hitters who try to drive the ball the opposite way?  This team has no consistent approach or strategy day in and day out other than "winning" which they haven't done in years.  

 

My point bringing up the past Twins isn't that their approach is the correct approach, it was that they had an approach.  The Twins knew how they wanted to win games.  They had an identity.  They taught that to players at every level.  They acquired players who fit and were able to execute that plan.  I don't see any sort of identity with this team, and it is highlighted by the Twins inability execute in pressure situations with runners in scoring position or pitching with a lead late.

Is there any coincidence that when power bats were expensive, the Twins played Piranha ball, and relied heavily on what at that time passed for a serviceable BP. And now that power arms, defense and shutdown BP's are expensive, the Twins have found HR's suddenly more important? This lends me to believe that either Ryan had an epiphany, albeit 10 years too late, or he finds that the pricing structure of certain parts of the game have changed, read lowered, over the time.

[old nurse]

 

Is there any coincidence that when power bats were expensive, the Twins played Piranha ball, and relied heavily on what at that time passed for a serviceable BP. And now that power arms, defense and shutdown BP's are expensive, the Twins have found HR's suddenly more important? This lends me to believe that either Ryan had an epiphany, albeit 10 years too late, or he finds that the pricing structure of certain parts of the game have changed, read lowered, over the time.

Restovich, Moses, LeCroy, Ramos, Valencia all  had potential to develop into power hitters.  They did not for the Twins. It is not like they did not try to develop power hitters . Morneau, Jones, Hunter, Cuddyer, and Kubel all had the potential to be power hitters.  Some players develop, some do not.

[TheLeviathan]

Agreed. There is value to having players like Plouffe on a roster who young players like Sano have to work to push out of positions. I think holding onto Plouffe was a very smart move in the short term.

But rather than push him off (or even allow it to possibly happen) they took they significantly younger, higher upside, better performer and pushed HIM to another position.

 

The Twins seem to either clear all competition and open the door wide (see: CF) or they defer to vets. I don't want to see Plouffe given away, but he's an overrated player around here.

[Sam Morley]

 

Some teams work on bunting, hitting behind the runner, hitting sac flys, and hitting to places on the field.  

It's interesting to me that you identify these as fundamentals. I would have identified them as elements of a certain type of offensive strategy, maybe most commonly known as 'small ball'. If you are going to employ that type of strategy, then you would need to be proficient in the fundamentals of each of those elements. A lot of teams have moved away from playing small ball, and so you are probably right that they are likely less proficient in executing the fundamentals of the elements of small ball, but they tend to be more proficient in the fundamentals of the elements of the strategy they employ. 

 

I agree with your assessment that the Twins seem to lack identity in this regard. It seems like they are caught somewhere in between. Maybe this is due to their abundance of young, inexperienced players; maybe it's due to the inexperience of their coaching staff and manager. 

 

[Champuckett]

They came up with the "Twins Way" admist the specter of contraction, losing for nearly a decade, and having their long time manager retire from the team.  They needed something new, inventive, and creative, and the circumstances called for it.  They had to win, they had to make a culture change, they were desperate.

 

Now, they don't have nearly the amount of pressure that they once had to be imaginative and come up with something new, something the Royals and Giants have recently been able to do.  They should feel the incentive, but for some reason they do not.  They have their amazing new stadium, a money generating monster, they have a bigger payroll, even when things are going bad.  They don't have to fear being contracted anymore either, at least for now.

 

Yes, they need some incentive to have a fire lit under their behinds, but that has not come yet and keeping the same culture that they have had for the last 15 years is what they are opting for at every turn.  I guess it is what is comfortable, and their doesn't seem to be an important dissenting voice within the franchise.  I don't know what it's going to take, but I'm sure it will happen eventually.  

 

Since we can't or won't outspend our opponents, we have to be far more innovative than our opponents.  Still waiting for that to happen.

[spinowner]

 

I'm going with the Torii Hunter affect, teams alway drop down after Torii leaves:

 

                                Winning % last yr with team                    Winning % first yr after leaving

Angels                                       .549                                                               .481

Detroit                                       .533                                                               .430

Minnesota                                  .512                                                              ????

A good example of correlation not being the same as causation.

[KGB]

 

 

A good example of correlation not being the same as causation.

 

I get it, kind of like saying moving Sano to the outfield is directly responsible for his drop in production.  Or is that an example of using stats that back up what you want to believe?

[chopper0080]

 

What more would Sano have to do than what he did last year, to push him off the team? Be even more awesomer?

Develop into a better third baseman than PLouffe in addition to proving he can consistently be a better hitter.

[Platoon]

I always try to use the word "develop" in the same sentence as the term "when given an opportunity"!

[Mike Sixel]

 

Develop into a better third baseman than PLouffe in addition to proving he can consistently be a better hitter.

 

over how much time? How would he develop into a 3B, while playing exclusively in RF? 

[Dantes929]

 

Thanks - I've learned to pick and choose stats as they fit my position

Well, we lost Johann Santana that same year so you could also make the argument that he was a negative value and losing him (Santana)  improved us by 11 games while losing Tori cost us 2 games netting the 9 game improvement from 2007 to 2008.     I don't think Santana had a negative 11 WAR in 2007 based on his 15-13 record and 3.33 ERA but if you can sell it then losing Hunter has hurt every team he has left.

[Dantes929]

Any changes in opinion after the 3 game sweep?    I buy into culture of losing but maybe they lost from 2011 to 2014 because they had a bad farm system and pitching to contact failed because they had bad pitchers and using all fields failed because they had bad hitters and not making mistakes in the field failed because they had bad fielders.      The 9 game losing streak came partly because of SSS and segued into pressing too much.    They look more relaxed now even though they are not scoring a ton of runs.   I don't like power at the expense of OBP but still think this is a better than .224 average team.  Thank God for Plouffe, Mauer, Escobar, Arcia and Nunez.or that average would be way below .200.    

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Any changes in opinion after the 3 game sweep?

In a word, nope. The Twins were insanely unlucky at exactly the wrong moments for nine consecutive games. Then they were just kinda... meh... in those moments for three games. Thanks to solid pitching, they still managed to win all three of those games.

 

The only thing that changed was the absurd situational hitting split, which was bound to change because there was no reason for it to exist in the first place, at least not to the staggering degree we saw for nine (!) games.

 

This is still a mediocre team with solid upside around the roster. Only time will tell whether that upside manifests, nine game losing streak be damned.

[Thrylos]

Losing culture?  Sure.  But the list in the OP is a bunch of symptoms.

 

Winners set the bar high.  

 

Here is where TR set the bar before the 2015 season:

(from here)

 

"Early on in Spring Training I told people who wanted to listen we had a chance to be pretty decent here, and we got off to that very difficult start and it made me look foolish," Ryan said. "But then we regrouped and got back into the thing. So overall, I had some expectations we were gonna be pretty good and battled into September and all that stuff and it came true. So that was rewarding. So I don't think inside the organization it was a shock."

 

When your goals are for your team to be "pretty decent" or "pretty good" and not "winning it all" or "going to the World Series", you set up a losing culture that feeds on mediocrity.

Simple. 

[Thrylos]

If rewarding the manager of 99+96+96+92 with a tenured job is not a sign of a losing culture, I don't know what it is...

[SwainZag]

 

Losing culture?  Sure.  But the list in the OP is a bunch of symptoms.

 

Winners set the bar high.  

 

Here is where TR set the bar before the 2015 season:

(from here)

 

"Early on in Spring Training I told people who wanted to listen we had a chance to be pretty decent here, and we got off to that very difficult start and it made me look foolish," Ryan said. "But then we regrouped and got back into the thing. So overall, I had some expectations we were gonna be pretty good and battled into September and all that stuff and it came true. So that was rewarding. So I don't think inside the organization it was a shock."

 

When your goals are for your team to be "pretty decent" or "pretty good" and not "winning it all" or "going to the World Series", you set up a losing culture that feeds on mediocrity.

Simple. 

 

I will say if Ryan came out before 2015 and said he plans for this team to win the World Series and be the best team that the Minnesota franchise has ever fielded, Twins Daily would have had a heyday at what a disillusion GM our favorite team had.  While "pretty decent" isn't the best prediction in the world, I think it was fairly accurate one forecasting the 2015 Twins.

[jimmer]

 

I will say if Ryan came out before 2015 and said he plans for this team to win the World Series and be the best team that the Minnesota franchise has ever fielded, Twins Daily would have had a heyday at what a disillusion GM our favorite team had.  While "pretty decent" isn't the best prediction in the world, I think it was fairly accurate one forecasting the 2015 Twins.

yeah, he knew he hadn't put together a team like that.