BP: Same Old Twins

[old nurse]

 

Not sure why you are comparing Dayton Moore and the Royals to TR and the Twins, the "trust the process" stuff is irrelevalnt since Moore has proven time and time again he will pull the trigger on a game changing trade to help out the team, TR? Nope.

Yup  proof of the trades

http://www.royalsauthority.com/dayton-moore-history/

Proof of time and again, not so much

[jimmer]

 

Correct. I was really referring to Wade's growth as his transition in that role. Interesting that the Royals still tried to have him be a starter that first year in KC in 2013.....  I was making the comparison that Nathan was not a closer previous to coming to the Twins, and it seems that both KC and the Twins got some fortunate luck from both of these deals.

True Nathan wasn't a closer, but he also was converted to reliever by SF and he was very good in that role.  I wonder how good KC would have been the first year they had him if they hadn't made the mistake of putting Davis back in a rotation.  They were pretty close to playoffs after that great trade (which I called a great trade by Moore when it was made).

 

In any event, you're right. Both the Twins and the Royals did well in those trades.

[old nurse]

When you talk of Moore's abilities consider this (from the site I references earlier for Dave)

 

Draft Choices Who Have Appeared In The Majors

The following table represents the players selected in the amateur draft during the tenure of Dayton Moore who have progressed to the major leagues.  Moore was named General Manager on May 30, 2006, ahead of the 2006 draft.  He did not assume the role of GM until June 8, 2006, after the draft was completed.
Debut  Player  POS  Draft  Round
8/2/10  Greg Holland  P  2007  10
3/31/11  Aaron Crow  P  2009  1
4/21/11  Louis Coleman  P  2009  5
5/6/11  Eric Hosmer  1B  2008  1
5/18/11  Danny Duffy  P  2007  3
6/10/11  Mike Moustakas  3B  2007  1
8/5/11  Johnny Giavotella  2B  2008  2

 

I have to add a disclaimer:The author  does not players traded away like Meyers. oops

[jimmer]

'As for Epstein and Luhnow, I certainly give them credit for their two championships in the last 22 years combined.  They've made a lot of good decisions, as well as a couple of clunkers.  I just don't see them as all that vastly different from Terry Ryan.'

 

TR and Theo Epstein are close to the same kind of GM in the same way a Ford Focus and a Porsche are both cars.

[old nurse]

 

'As for Epstein and Luhnow, I certainly give them credit for their two championships in the last 22 years combined.  They've made a lot of good decisions, as well as a couple of clunkers.  I just don't see them as all that vastly different from Terry Ryan.'

 

TR and Theo Epstein are close to the same kind of GM in the same way a Ford Focus and a Porsche are both cars.

Epstien had had the resources of Ford or Volkswagen while Ryan is dealing with more of a Renault type funded organization.  In the holiday analogy, Epstien got to work for Santa, Ryan got the cranky Scrooge.

[jimmer]

 

Epstien had had the resources of Ford or Volkswagen while Ryan is dealing with more of a Renault type funded organization.  In the holiday analogy, Epstien got to work for Santa, Ryan got the cranky Scrooge.

Yes, the cash strapped Twins.  Poor, poor Pohlads.

 

Epstein teams also played in tougher divisions, in a division with a team that spent even more than they did, in a market with a tough media, and for a fan base (and owners) with huge expectations. 

[TheLeviathan]

Gee, I just wish it was possible to be critical of the Twins without some absolute whacky fall-out in response.

 

It'd also be nice if those criticizing Ryan tipped their hat a bit more as to what he does well.  This all or nothing stuff is ridiculous.

 

Here's the thing, I have very little confidence in Ryan making a significant, aggressive move during our next window of contention.  I also worry that his past nickel and diming has just morphed into larger sums, but still the same core problem: too much money tied up in players not capable of helping the team much.  Guys that, if cut and their salaries pooled, would create more than enough money for a guy that would actually help.

 

Ryan does a lot of things well, I think draft and develop is the right system.  I'm pretty confident he won't make glaringly terrible trades.  But my positives about him don't blind me to fair criticism either.

[h2oface]

 

As for Epstein and Luhnow, I certainly give them credit for their two championships in the last 22 years combined.  They've made a lot of good decisions, as well as a couple of clunkers.  I just don't see them as all that vastly different from Terry Ryan.

 

I guess then the score is Epstein and Luhnow - 2, Terry Ryan - ZERO. I see them vastly different in that they Lohnow (who wasn't even in baseball until 2003) and Epstein are on the edge and pushing development in the new and changing baseball world, and Ryan is doing what he mostly always has (international markets' exception noted... and given credit for). I see them vastly different.

[markos]

 

 For starters I pointed out that they had a horrendous record for 20 years.  How 30 years crept in to this I have no idea and there was absolutely no assertion they were in a rebuild process for 30 years or 20 years for that matter.  There were several points made here you ignored them all and came up with something out of the blue.

 

1. The Twins have rebuilt in a MUCH shorter period of time.

2. The Royals used much less expensive free agents but everyone ignores that fact.

3. They did not trade their prospects for an Ace they traded their Ace for prospects.

4. They have never signed an international player like Sano or Javier.  I am not even sure if they have signed one equivalent to Kepler's 800K.

Regarding the international market, the Royals have been one of the most aggressive teams in the past 10 years or so. They were the 4th highest spender between the 2010-2011 seasons, spending over $9M in total, including $2M on Raul Mondesi Jr. And just this past year they were one of 4 teams that went significantly over their bonus pool, signing two players to seven-figure deals and several other smaller deals. 

[DaveW]

Gee, I just wish it was possible to be critical of the Twins without some absolute whacky fall-out in response.

 

It'd also be nice if those criticizing Ryan tipped their hat a bit more as to what he does well. This all or nothing stuff is ridiculous.

 

Here's the thing, I have very little confidence in Ryan making a significant, aggressive move during our next window of contention. I also worry that his past nickel and diming has just morphed into larger sums, but still the same core problem: too much money tied up in players not capable of helping the team much. Guys that, if cut and their salaries pooled, would create more than enough money for a guy that would actually help.

 

Ryan does a lot of things well, I think draft and develop is the right system. I'm pretty confident he won't make glaringly terrible trades. But my positives about him don't blind me to fair criticism either.

I think Ryan is a good draft/talent evaluator overall, and I think he was just fine as a GM overall in his first stint. My issue with him is this second stint, and how he hasn't become more aggressive and still dumpster dives to fill holes.

 

Looking back honestly, once Smith was fired they should have went outside the org to bring in a fresh voice. I still don't understand how TR could step down, then come back so quickly, I guess it's because he is a class act (I do believe this and think he is a great guy) because the pohlads asked him, I just wish he would have turned them down and forced them to go outside the org for once

[Willihammer]

I think its clear that TR uses trades primarily to rebalance the system. Even his deadline deals are geared towards addressing organizational weakness as much as making a playoff push. Stewart is a good example of a guy who was a FA that the Twins brough back the following offseason on a 3 year deal. But this approach puts a cap on the type of player the Twins will make a deadline trade for. That cap is: what they'd be willing to pay for that player on the open market the following offseason. TR would never have traded for Johnny Cueto, for example.

 

IMO this isn't all bad because we know most blockbuster deadline deals wind up just making the buying team's system weaker by 1-2 top talents. We also know that a lot of deadline needs can be predicted months in advance - like the Twins bullpen last spring. Everyone knew that bullpen was weak. So instead of waiting until the deadline to target players of medium-low quality, maybe they can address those needs before hand and target higher quality players who, because they aren't rentals, will not decimate the system as badly because higher quality players are more likely to garner QOs the following offseason. That might also help smooth out the boom and bust cycle the Twins seem so prone to under Ryan.

[beckmt]

 

I think Ryan is a good draft/talent evaluator overall, and I think he was just fine as a GM overall in his first stint. My issue with him is this second stint, and how he hasn't become more aggressive and still dumpster dives to fill holes.

Looking back honestly, once Smith was fired they should have went outside the org to bring in a fresh voice. I still don't understand how TR could step down, then come back so quickly, I guess it's because he is a class act (I do believe this and think he is a great guy) because the pohlads asked him, I just wish he would have turned them down and forced them to go outside the org for once

All I see here is revisionist history 101.  Ryan came back out of loyalty to his people as an outside GM would have brought in there own people and dismissed most of Ryan's.  Who knows how many of the Twins prospects a new GM would have traded to become relevant. (Or trying). 

Twins have 7 - 8 prospect relievers coming in the next 2 years. If 2-3 of them work out the Twins will have their shutdown bullpen(and that works, look at KC).  You can cover middle of the road starting pitching with a shutdown bullpen.  I wish to see what happens in the next couple of years.  After that we can judge better. 

Would not be surprised if we are slightly worse this year, before starting to kick the window open.  Not all moves work out and regression is to be expected(though also is some bounce back).  Will not worry about ballclub construction until the end of spring training as I feel there still are moves to be made.

We shall see.

[DocBauer]

Because here we are 12 years later and we (most fans) still have serious doubts about the people running the ship.

Sorry......we do?

 

Most fans?

 

I've ridden various waves of Twins success and failure over the 45 years I've followed the team in my 50 years on this earth. I've seen different owners, rumored owners, three ballparks, various GM's, several managers, a few hundred ball players, horrible seasons and disappointments, trades that made me cringe as well as exalt, seasons that teased, seasons that pleased, and two World Series Championships. (I've also seen a lot of good and horrible baseball from other teams, many of whom have had far fewer winning/playoff teams than the Twins have had in the last 20 years)

 

Having a opinion, even a contrary opinion, is a wonderful thing that I, and others, respect and will respect, even if we do not agree. But I would be very careful with directives or absolutes concerning statements that include "most of us."

[DaveW]

Poll 100 twins fans, the majority are not happy with the current regime and have their doubts.

 

I didn't say all, I said most, though I could change it to "a large number of fans"

 

I bet if you polled the owners of this site, the mods, admins you would have more that are concerned then are not.

[DaveW]

All I see here is revisionist history 101. Ryan came back out of loyalty to his people as an outside GM would have brought in there own people and dismissed most of Ryan's. Who knows how many of the Twins prospects a new GM would have traded to become relevant. (Or trying).

Twins have 7 - 8 prospect relievers coming in the next 2 years. If 2-3 of them work out the Twins will have their shutdown bullpen(and that works, look at KC). You can cover middle of the road starting pitching with a shutdown bullpen. I wish to see what happens in the next couple of years. After that we can judge better.

Would not be surprised if we are slightly worse this year, before starting to kick the window open. Not all moves work out and regression is to be expected(though also is some bounce back). Will not worry about ballclub construction until the end of spring training as I feel there still are moves to be made.

We shall see.

I more or less acknowledged he came back out of loyalty. yes maybe someone else may have traded some prospects (keep in mind, most prospects fail in the majors anyways) and maybe they would have failed, but then again, the Twins haven't "succeeded" since Ryan has come back, no playoff berths and one 83 win season that is largely a product of luck. (75-77 win team in reality)

 

Could it have been worse? Absolutely

Could it have been better? Absolutely

[DocBauer]

Here is the problem: 

Liriano's past 3 seasons:

 

35-25, 3.26 ERA, 3.23 FIP, 1.241 WHIP, 9.6 K/9 and 3.8 K/BB

 

Give me a starter who pitched better for the Twins the last 3 seasons.  Or, give me any starter not named Santana who put 3 better seasons in a row for the Twins the last 15 years.

 

Ryan did not get that it was not Liriano who needed to go, but it was Gardy and Andy.  Finally someone pulled that plug but a few seasons too late.

 

it is not the 2 months of Liriano, it is that he did not replace him.

Look, I'm not saying you are right, or that you are wrong. But I think there are two very important things to remember.

 

1* Pre-injury as well as post injury, Liriano had good/great performances/moments and seasons WITH Gardy and Anderson as well as bad/poor performances/moments and seasons WITH Gardy and Anderson. Not an opinion, the seasons and stats are there.

 

2* When the Twins traded Liriano to the ChiSox....removed from any Gardenhire or Anderson influence...he didn't exactly set the world on fire. In fact, there were various rumors of the ChiSox staff being very frustrated with Liriano's approach.

[DocBauer]

Even more damning is that they didn't even make him an offer to resign as a FA, when the asking price was much less than what we paid Pelfrey.

 

Classic mediocrity over upside

 

We saw it last off-season with Hunter instead of Cruz, and we have seen it this off-season thus far with guys like Murphy and some nobodies to fill out the bullpen.

OK...I really am not picking on anyone, or even speaking about this post in particular, but this post really speaks to me about something I get really tired of. And that is some sort of revisionist or fatalist theory that skews perspective negatively...deliberately...toward the Twins and anything they do.

 

The Twins were morons for getting rid of Liriano, and morons again for not trying to sign him when he was a FA. Even though he didn't do well with the White Sox and they cut him loose. But we forget another team had him before he found his new success with another team. How about Eric Show for the old timers? And then, of course, there is Mark Portugal. Although, once again, each of these guys were with at least one other team before finding success. So obviously, the Twins are to blame for jettisoning them, almost deliberately, in their Keystone Cop ineptitude way or running things.

 

Of course, we wouldn't dare actually give credit to the Twins for finding good players that other teams let go would we? We wouldn't dare talk about Harper, Berenguer, Willis, Mack, Johan Santana, Pavano, Hughes and others. Some had a good or great year or two, some better and longer, and some were part of great teams and moments. But, of course, a player who left the Twins and had any measure of success with anyone...even if it took another team or two, another year or two...is an oversight of ineptitude by the Twins. But anyone the Twins sign and get good production from is a stroke of blind luck.

 

Really?

[DaveW]

First off, nobody called the Twins morons in this thread, so stop saying we did, it only detracts from the conversation that is going on. Nobody has said every good signing is just a stroke of good luck either.

 

The problem is that Liriano didn't come out of nowhere to have success with the Pirates, he had PLENTY of success for the Twins, just like Ortiz, and just like Ortiz he didn't fit the twins "pitch to contact" "hit to opposite field" mold.

 

Once the Pirates let Liriano throw whatever he wanted (slider) and once the Red Sox let Ortiz concentrate on mashing, both players became great. This isn't a coincidence.This isn't exactly RA dickey where nobody could predict success.

 

The twins have done great Getting Nathan, Liriano etc in the first place, you seem to take it personally that people are pointing out that letting him go and not resigning him or even trying to later on clearly was the wrong move.

[beckmt]

 

I more or less acknowledged he came back out of loyalty. yes maybe someone else may have traded some prospects (keep in mind, most prospects fail in the majors anyways) and maybe they would have failed, but then again, the Twins haven't "succeeded" since Ryan has come back, no playoff berths and one 83 win season that is largely a product of luck. (75-77 win team in reality)

Could it have been worse? Absolutely
Could it have been better? Absolutely

Last few drafts under Bill Smith were not good.  That is the basis of the current problems.  The best credit given him is for the foreign signings which were mostly very good. 

Trades were also a disaster as Bill listened far too much to Gardy and Gardy did not get along with most of the players, who were traded.   Bill's approach was to throw more money at the problem and the Pohlad's determined that is not what they wanted. 

 

 

[DocBauer]

Gee, I just wish it was possible to be critical of the Twins without some absolute whacky fall-out in response.

 

It'd also be nice if those criticizing Ryan tipped their hat a bit more as to what he does well.  This all or nothing stuff is ridiculous.

 

Here's the thing, I have very little confidence in Ryan making a significant, aggressive move during our next window of contention.  I also worry that his past nickel and diming has just morphed into larger sums, but still the same core problem: too much money tied up in players not capable of helping the team much.  Guys that, if cut and their salaries pooled, would create more than enough money for a guy that would actually help.

 

Ryan does a lot of things well, I think draft and develop is the right system.  I'm pretty confident he won't make glaringly terrible trades.  But my positives about him don't blind me to fair criticism either.

This! Absolutely this +10.

 

Call me overly patient, call me a homer if you will, call me an apologist. But despite a general believer in Ryan's patient methods, despite liking a general disdain for trying to "buy" a team by wading too deeply and dangerously in the FA pool, despite agreeing it can be more harmful long term than good short term by trading away a slew of prospects, despite a belief that "dumpster diving" or late-patient FA signings can often be prudent and smart, not "cheap", I have also been up front in being critical of Ryan's moves and non-moves. Especially the past couple years in regard to the bullpen and CF. In fact, I have been very recently.

 

But I think a lot of this arguement is generalized and late. Ryan has made some huge mistakes, IMO, with some of his recent FA signings. Pelfrey was an OK signing. The re-sign was wrong. The Hughes and Santana signing were very smart IMO. The Hughes re-structure wasn't necessary. But the fact these signings even took place shows a change in the traditional MO.

 

The Twins have been concentrating on various power arms and power players in the draft recently. There were some interesting reports I heard over the course of this past season that I'd like to see reported more thoroughly...I may be too busy or lazy, LOL...about virtually every Twins milb affiliate ranking at or near the top of their leagues in SO's, CG's and other similar statistics. (This seems to co-incide with some changes in the milb staffing and coaching structure) The Park signing caught most, if not all of us, by complete surprise. Way, way, way out of the Twins/Ryan boring and predictable brown box.

 

He may be changing slowly, more slowly than some would want, but don't tell me Ryan and the Twins aren't changing.

 

You could say Ryan is too conservative by trying to sign OF and bullpen options on the cheap, hoping to mine gold. (He's struck a vein or two before to be sure) You could also claim he's turned in to a gambler, as I have, by "gambling" Hicks would be ready, and Buxton right behind him, not allowing for contingency. Same with the bullpen, begining last season, thinking for sure prospects would be ready early, mid-season at the latest. Of course, that's not the way it worked. And unfortunately, it may not happen this year as well.

 

I sure hope it does. Or I may be in the unfortunate line of fans calling for a change at the top.

[DocBauer]

First off, nobody called the Twins morons in this thread, so stop saying we did, it only detracts from the conversation that is going on. Nobody has said every good signing is just a stroke of good luck either.

The problem is that Liriano didn't come out of nowhere to have success with the Pirates, he had PLENTY of success for the Twins, just like Ortiz, and just like Ortiz he didn't fit the twins "pitch to contact" "hit to opposite field" mold.

Once the Pirates let Liriano throw whatever he wanted (slider) and once the Red Sox let Ortiz concentrate on mashing, both players became great. This isn't a coincidence.This isn't exactly RA dickey where nobody could predict success.

The twins have done great Getting Nathan, Liriano etc in the first place, you seem to take it personally that people are pointing out that letting him go and not resigning him or even trying to later on clearly was the wrong move.

Not going to get in a contest here. But I was very clear that I was NOT picking on any individual person or post. That is NOT me, or my style. I was using an example only to make a generalized point. Again, I thought I was clear with my NOT comment. If you felt otherwise, then I apologize if I was not clear or obvious in the direction of my commentary, which, in truth, was a bit tongue in cheek. Excuse me if my tired, late evening vernacular slipped in to mundane verbiage mode in regard to the "moron" usage. Once again, I was only making a generalized point, rather tongue in cheek, and to my immediate recollection, I have never used the word before, so I'm not sure chastising me for repeatedly saying something I've only said this one time before is accurate, or necessary.

 

But I'm stepping aside at this point. I've supported Ryan, and I've chastised Ryan. Just today in fact. But debating how we debate, or a tongue planted in cheek vs being stuck out is not my agenda. So with apologies, I'll just exit stage left and drop this thread.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- I came close to deleting  a few of the posts above, but have decided to see how this plays out.  

 

PLEASE be sensitive to the fact that people passionately disagree about some of these issues.  That's good for the forums up to a point, but when people become dismissive of other people's ideas, and the discussion turns into feuding, we will delete the offending posts and possibly hand out infraction points.

 

Continue to disagree as vigorously as you want, but please follow the rules.  http://twinsdaily.com/topic/8228-twins-daily-comment-policy-latest-revision-september-2013/

[Oldgoat_MN]

Alas, 6 pages in, 113 posts. Hit a nerve?

 

The part of the article that I found to be exactly as I believe was this:

 

but they continue to flesh out that roster with the wrong kinds of complementary pieces and low-ceiling, medium-floor veterans

 

I think TR is too focussed on looking at what their floor might be rather than their ceiling. I also think this will likely keep the  Twins from ever winning a World Series with TR as the GM.

 

I remember how frustrating it was to watch TR sign Nolasco to a 4 year deal while weeks later a pitcher named Kazmir had to sign for fewer years and less money. I suppose TR felt Nolasco had a higher floor, that if everthing went poorly Kazmir would not pitch at all (Kazmir has had injuries in his past, though he had just finished half of an excellent year) and Nolasco would pitch, and maybe not too terribly.

 

You can tell me I'm wrong, but there is a lot of evidence to support this suspicion.

 

[TheLeviathan]

I think the floor vs. ceiling point is another valid criticism.  As an example of where you hear this vocalized by the club, I see it every time they credit a pitcher as an innings eater.  

 

Guys like Correia and Nolasco were signed, in part, because the Twins value that stat to a point of ridiculousness.  Yes, being able to stay healthy and be on the mound is great, but we could set our sights a tad higher than that too.

[Major League Ready]

Much of the problem some people have with our FO seems to be around the "they wont go for the huge deal.  That is a fair point but the assumption that is a completely valid criticism is quite debatable.  For starters, the Twins are basically where the Royals were in 2011 in terms of a rebuild.  People here want the Shields trade of 2013 when the Twins are still a couple years away from being ready to contend just as the Royals were not ready to contend in 2011.  That's precisely why they traded away there best player instead of trading for a great player.  BTW ... They were a year early on the Shields trade but that is beside the point.

 

The problem I have with the "go for broke" mentality here is that its supporters never acknowledge how many of those go horribly bad.  Ask the Padres how it worked out for them last year.  Billy Beane went all in and it was a horrible disaster.  There are many of these examples and they can severely hurt the team for several years.   I would like to see more aggression when the reach contention but it would also be nice of the big bang advocates acknowledged the positive side of having a FO that wont put us in the position of having a bad team for the 10-20 year stretches endured by the fans of some other franchises.  

 

We also need to consider the FO applied a business model and personnel practices consistent with being near the bottom of the revenue rankings when they were in the dome.  It is unfair to assume they wont act in accordance with their new revenue position that is middle of the pack.  In fact, they clearly demonstrated a change when they extended Mauer and when they signed Nolasco, Hughes, and Santana.  For that matter Park is a divergence from old practices.  So, I am going to wait to criticize their failure to makes those "final piece" moves until they are in that position again.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Here is the problem: 

Liriano's past 3 seasons:

 

35-25, 3.26 ERA, 3.23 FIP, 1.241 WHIP, 9.6 K/9 and 3.8 K/BB

 

Give me a starter who pitched better for the Twins the last 3 seasons.  Or, give me any starter not named Santana who put 3 better seasons in a row for the Twins the last 15 years.

 

Ryan did not get that it was not Liriano who needed to go, but it was Gardy and Andy.  Finally someone pulled that plug but a few seasons too late.

 

it is not the 2 months of Liriano, it is that he did not replace him.

 

This, I will agree with .  Though truthfully, I don't think Liriano wanted to come back. If I remember right, we offered him more money that offseason. Now if we had dumped Gardy and Andy then and brought in Molitor and Allen, we may have had a different out come.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The problem I have with the "go for broke" mentality here is that its supporters never acknowledge how many of those go horribly bad.  Ask the Padres how it worked out for them last year.  Billy Beane went all in and it was a horrible disaster.  There are many of these examples and they can severely hurt the team for several years.   I would like to see more aggression when the reach contention but it would also be nice of the big bang advocates acknowledged the positive side of having a FO that wont put us in the position of having a bad team for the 10-20 year stretches endured by the fans of some other franchises.  

 

No one wants Ryan to go into the offseason in gunslinger mode, doing whatever crazy thing crosses his plate.

 

I'm a huge advocate against the "all-in" model.  It's record of success just doesn't justify the costs associated.  That said, there is middle ground between a constant pursuit of all-in and what Ryan has shown us.  He's been trigger shy to add in the past and so far continues to occupy the middle ground of FA.

 

Meanwhile, right now we have 35 million signed to three starters and a catcher.  Would you rather have Santana, Nolasco, Hughes, Milone, Gibson or Grienke, Gibson, Milone, May, and Duffy?  To me that's a simple choice.

[Platoon]

I have always been of the opinion that personality and the ability to "get along" with the field staff had far too much weight in roster decisions. Someone pointed out Morneau as proof that this theory is implausible. Morneau could be an arguement were it not for his injuries and performance. Maybe other teams are the same, lord knows I don't follow them closely. But the Twins history is littered with the Liriannos, Hardys, Gomezs, Garzzas and Ortizs of baseball. Was Hicks what the Yankees wanted/needed. Or did his past frustrations to the orginisation make him more available than another option? Players have a responsibility to comport themselves in an acceptable manner, they don't have to attempt to conform to a one size fits all system. Good management accepts a wide variety of characters, it doesn't exclude them out of hand.

[Mike Sixel]

 

This article felt like it was written by someone who was snubbed for a job with the Twins.  "I didn't want to work for those fuddy-duddy stick-in-the-muds anyway."  

 

This debate is getting old; on the one side are people that will always despise the ownership and management of the Twins, some to the point of claiming anything good that has ever happened was either lucky or was forced upon Ryan.  The rest of us are more pragmatic or nuanced in our beliefs.  Better the devil you know...

 

I've stated before, I was a long-time fan of the Miami Dolphins, and "suffered" for many years watching Don Shula and Dan Marino come up short in the draft and on the field.  But what has happened since the team was sold (now twice) has been embarrassing.  Chasing GM's and coaches and big ticket free agent fixes, all for a Super Bowl drought that now exceeded the one Shula had presided over when he was kicked to the curb.

 

I'm all for innovation, but if the Twins were sold and a GM like Preller came in and did what he did I'd be much more upset than I am over the fact TR had to overpay to get the "Big Four" to come and pitch for the Twins.

 

So, the "supporters" are nuanced and pragmatic, and those others are just bad, stupid people?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Much of the problem some people have with our FO seems to be around the "they wont go for the huge deal.  That is a fair point but the assumption that is a completely valid criticism is quite debatable.  For starters, the Twins are basically where the Royals were in 2011 in terms of a rebuild.  People here want the Shields trade of 2013 when the Twins are still a couple years away from being ready to contend just as the Royals were not ready to contend in 2011.  That's precisely why they traded away there best player instead of trading for a great player.  BTW ... They were a year early on the Shields trade but that is beside the point.

 

The problem I have with the "go for broke" mentality here is that its supporters never acknowledge how many of those go horribly bad.  Ask the Padres how it worked out for them last year.  Billy Beane went all in and it was a horrible disaster.  There are many of these examples and they can severely hurt the team for several years.   I would like to see more aggression when the reach contention but it would also be nice of the big bang advocates acknowledged the positive side of having a FO that wont put us in the position of having a bad team for the 10-20 year stretches endured by the fans of some other franchises.  

 

We also need to consider the FO applied a business model and personnel practices consistent with being near the bottom of the revenue rankings when they were in the dome.  It is unfair to assume they wont act in accordance with their new revenue position that is middle of the pack.  In fact, they clearly demonstrated a change when they extended Mauer and when they signed Nolasco, Hughes, and Santana.  For that matter Park is a divergence from old practices.  So, I am going to wait to criticize their failure to makes those "final piece" moves until they are in that position again.  

 

and yet you point out it took the Royals 30 years to do it their way, and how long did it take the Pirates? It isn't like going small always works either....how did that work when Ryan was last year, and he went small for a decade?