Twins Want Hunter Back

[Major League Ready]

 

I am not sure this is a great argument? Someone just might come back and mention Arcia, Buxton, and Shafer? I would never do that, but some other poster might! Mentoring is crap. If TH was interesting in mentoring, and advancing the careers of his younger OF compatriots, he would not have wanted to play RF instead of left, and he would not be arguing with Molly when he was being benched last week. He would be encouraging his youthful protégés to make the best of this playoff run and their ML opportunity! Not grumbling about his personal playing time. Mentoring is crap.

Big brothers and big sisters is basically a mentoring program.  Is it crap?   Many of the most successful companies in America make substantial commitments to mentoring programs.  Just because you don’t understand does not mean it is crap.

[theBOMisthebomb]

If we bring Torii back in 2016 as a player it will work out like Favre's second season here. Bring Torii back as a mentor/dancer/assistant coach instead.

[TheLeviathan]

We don't have to quantify what Torii brought for intangibles, I think most reasonable people will agree he did.  He also was a decent player on the field and a bridge for this team that it needed.

 

It's also true that the bridge hasn't been necessary for about a month now and won't be necessary next year.  

[Mike Sixel]

I gotta say, why can't we count Arcia, Buxton, and any other guy that didn't produce like we thought they would? Why does he get credit for good players, but not demerits for bad players?

 

I agree, culture matters, but some people here are using pretty slippery logic.

 

I assume the 10 wins comment was satire.......otherwise he is worth something along the lines of 60-70MM dollars this year, and is more valuable than anyone not named Bryce Harper this year......

[Riverbrian]

It's gotta be about depth. Players with options can be stashed in the minors for call up when injury happens. If you got good ones that is a good thing. If you promote your youth aggressively you will lose that insurance in case Buxton struggles and Kepler isn't ready. 

 

This is what went wrong with Hicks too early... We had nobody to replace Hicks when he struggled and we had to scrap heap search for Schafer and Fuld. We would be in the same boat again if Buxton and Kepler are up and both hit .180 in the majors. 

 

I think this just says that the Twins consider Hunter to be better than Schafer and Fuld so they are bringing him back. 

 

Buxton and Kepler and Walker will wait for an injury and when they get the chance to play and prove themselves they will have to prove themselves. If they prove themselves... they will stay up.  

 

[Monkeypaws]

Torii will think he has something to offer yet on the field, in large part to his recent resurgence.

 

And I will offer a tip of the cap to a 40 year old who has held his own against players nearly young enough to be his children.

 

I also would like him to stay with the Twins organization, now that we have him back.

 

The solution to me would be to give him a sweetheart deal as a roving instructor, or some such thing.

 

He probably gonna want that farewell tour though, and after a respectable season, who could blame him?

 

Doing right by your stars is important for an organization: otherwise you see Harmon Killebrew in a Royals uniform. The Twins gave up on Hunter much too early, and I think he deserves to go out in style, somehow.

[Major League Ready]

 

I gotta say, why can't we count Arcia, Buxton, and any other guy that didn't produce like we thought they would? Why does he get credit for good players, but not demerits for bad players?

 

I agree, culture matters, but some people here are using pretty slippery logic.

 

I assume the 10 wins comment was satire.......otherwise he is worth something along the lines of 60-70MM dollars this year, and is more valuable than anyone not named Bryce Harper this year......

 

 

I gotta say, why can't we count Arcia, Buxton, and any other guy that didn't produce like we thought they would? Why does he get credit for good players, but not demerits for bad players?

 

I agree, culture matters, but some people here are using pretty slippery logic.

 

I assume the 10 wins comment was satire.......otherwise he is worth something along the lines of 60-70MM dollars this year, and is more valuable than anyone not named Bryce Harper this year......

Buxton has not been here that long and he simply is not ready.  it is hardly fair to expect that mentoring or coaching is going to overcome someone not being ready for this level.  Arcia appears to be an extreme head case.  I am not close enough to the situation to hold any firm opinion on him but as the song goes "there is none so blind as he who will not see".  

 

The concept that players are able to make a difference in the win column via their leadership seems widely accepted.  Why is it so difficult for you to accept Hunter's leadership has impact?

[Boom Boom]

I assume the 10 wins comment was satire.......otherwise he is worth something along the lines of 60-70MM dollars this year, and is more valuable than anyone not named Bryce Harper this year......

When you factor in the improvement of the Twins, along with the collapse of the Tigers, it's pretty clear what the difference was... dance parties.

 

Torii came in and shook up the town like Kevin Bacon in Footloose.

[Kwak]

Leadership?  Clubhouse mentor?  "Climb on my back guys, I got this."  Hunter?  He didn't have this quality before--so where did he get it?  How do we know that the success of Hicks, Rosario, et al, was caused by Hunter?  How was his "leadership" shown or measured?--especially since none of us were on the Twins and could "witness" this leadership.

 

Perhaps we should return to why Hunter was signed last year:  way to few who could be "trusted" to play at the ML level not even close to three OFers, and a desire to show "fans" a familiar face in order to sell tickets. Anything else from Hunter would be a bonus.  Are those circumstances from last fall unchanged?  Or, do the Twins have an adequate number of ML-calibre OFers  for next year?  Is Hunter's "game" that significant  that warrants his return?  Did Hunter lose his supply of magic beans in June and thus became a liability?--and will that happen again next year?

[sane]

I am not sure this is a great argument? Someone just might come back and mention Arcia, Buxton, and Shafer? I would never do that, but some other poster might! Mentoring is crap. If TH was interesting in mentoring, and advancing the careers of his younger OF compatriots, he would not have wanted to play RF instead of left, and he would not be arguing with Molly when he was being benched last week. He would be encouraging his youthful protégés to make the best of this playoff run and their ML opportunity! Not grumbling about his personal playing time. Mentoring is crap!

Arcia and Shafer were not around long enough to benefit from Hunter. Buxton missed almost all last season and had played ONLY ONE GAME at AA before this season.

Hunter DID ALL THE MENTORING DUTIES you mention. The fact that he wanted to play was likely to help the team win and GET INTO THE PLAYOFFS. If he doesn't play, and Buxton gets his at-bats, (the way Buxton has been hitting) THERE WOULD BE NO PLAYOFFS for the Twins this season and the "playoff run" would probably be over already. Hunter is 40-yrs-old and wants to play in a World Series. He would be a bad role model IF HE DIDN'T CARE about playing and winning!

[Shaitan]

It is possible he's not totally toast yet. His 2nd half is bad, but the past 15 years do tell a pretty clear story that he's always been a streaky player.

 

I wouldn't argue against him on the roster as a 5th OF in 2016. Otherwise, well, not my preference.

 

For those who want him as a coach, I'm curious: should they fire somebody else after a successful season? Can they add a new coach without removing one? I don't know the rules on that aspect of roster construction.

 

 

 

[spinowner]

 

 Can they add a new coach without removing one? I don't know the rules on that aspect of roster construction.

MLB teams are allowed 7 coaches. If they want to hire Torii as a major league coach someone has to go. If the FO really feels they need to have him in the organization as a player then sign him to a minor league contract and make it clear that it means playing and mentoring in the minors unless there's a big problem at the major league level. It should be like they did with Jacque Jones in 2010, NOT like they did with Kubel and Bartlett last year.

[DaveW]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Hunter would be some great coach/front office guy. His approach to the plate is pretty poor, and I don't want him teaching the youngsters his style (Though he has been very successful, I wouldn't want Puckett as a hitting coach anyways!) That leaves base coach or bench coach, not sure any current guy deserves to lose his job TBH. Maybe start out as a coach in spring training with the OF?

 

Hunter has always been a great interview, I think the much more likely route for him is to goto MLB network or ESPN. He would be great to watch.

[jimmer]

 

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Hunter would be some great coach/front office guy. His approach to the plate is pretty poor, and I don't want him teaching the youngsters his style (Though he has been very successful, I wouldn't want Puckett as a hitting coach anyways!) That leaves base coach or bench coach, not sure any current guy deserves to lose his job TBH. Maybe start out as a coach in spring training with the OF?

 

Hunter has always been a great interview, I think the much more likely route for him is to goto MLB network or ESPN. He would be great to watch.

I'm hoping ESPN.

[nicksaviking]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Hunter would be some great coach/front office guy. His approach to the plate is pretty poor, and I don't want him teaching the youngsters his style (Though he has been very successful, I wouldn't want Puckett as a hitting coach anyways!) That leaves base coach or bench coach, not sure any current guy deserves to lose his job TBH. Maybe start out as a coach in spring training with the OF.

While I'm certainly not advocating Hunter as a coach, I'm not sure we would have thought much of Brunansky based off of his playing days either. He was a swing first slugger with significant contact issues and a rather poor OBP for a middle of the order bat. Funny thing is , Bruno could actually draw a walk, but for some reason very few of his current pupils can.

 

There actually don't seem to be many hitting coaches who were considered good hitters back when they played. Wally Joyner was a good contact guy. Don Baylor, Chili Davis?

[Minniman]

I am on record stating the Minnesota Twins should not have signed Torii Hunter. It is not that Hunter did not have some value to the team, as he still has some pop in his bat, but the Twins paid too much for him. I wanted the Twins to go after Nelson Cruz to help now and in the future. That was my opinion since the offseason.

 

In hindsight, Nelson Cruz is cleaning up in Seattle with a manageable contract in both pay and length of terms. He is not a great fielder, but neither is Hunter anymore.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Buxton has not been here that long and he simply is not ready.  it is hardly fair to expect that mentoring or coaching is going to overcome someone not being ready for this level.  Arcia appears to be an extreme head case.  I am not close enough to the situation to hold any firm opinion on him but as the song goes "there is none so blind as he who will not see".  

 

The concept that players are able to make a difference in the win column via their leadership seems widely accepted.  Why is it so difficult for you to accept Hunter's leadership has impact?

 

 

Where did I say it didn't? I actually have posted over and over it did, even in the post you quoted.....but you can't claim as "proof" that some guys played well, and then say that there is no demerit for other guys, that's just bad logic. Maybe some guys don't like him, maybe they don't connect with his style, maybe they are bad on their own.....just like maybe the other guys are good on their own. We DON"T KNOW. That's the point. 

 

but if we want to argue that a couple of guys playing well proves he added a whole lot of wins, you can.

[Sam Morley]

this thread is just as disgraceful as the bash hunter thread that was started back in april. 1 he is obviously still good. 2 the twins might actually make the playoffs and he has contributed significantly toward the effort. 3 he is a g-d twins legend. when he does retire it should be in a twins uniform, and when he is ready- and just like everybody else becomes ready when they start to suck so will he- but he doesnt yet. 4 even if he did suck- which he doesnt- i am happy to reward him an extra year or two, or as many as he wants, really, in appreciation of the ten freaking seasons he spent destroying his body in the concrete floored abomination that was the dome- rip. in case anyone has forgotten, those were the days in which the twins were about to be disappeared, and whether it did or not, it sure felt like hunter's contributions had something to do with saving the team from nonexistence. 5 even if haters are correct about some of what they say- namely the blockage of some milb talent- so what? is voicing that opinion really worth disrespecting one of the best twins of all time? is it really worth having that on your TD record? 6 hunter may not make the hall of fame, but he will get votes and there are players in who are less deserving. he will certainly make the twins hall and we should expect to see 48 up next to 3 6 29 34 14 and 28. let the man have his swan song without craping all over it, clamoring for untested milbers who havent earned didly and can wait their turn. 7 i'm excited for the young guys too, and if hunter chooses to retire it will be fun to see who gets a shot to replace him. if not, we get another year of a twins legend rounding out his career at 20 years and 40 plus years of age- an amazing accomplishment. there will always be a bevy of milb talent in the wait. there will never be another torii hunter. 8 if you really have to hate, at least save it for the off season lest your mudslinging jinxes the post season aspirations of the present season. 9 there is a chance that the twins get into the playoffs. there is a chance they go to the world series. there is a chance they win. maybe the chances are slim, but they are real,  and just the chance of seeing hunter win a world series with the twins is worth the risk of blocking or even losing some prospects.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

I can't help but feel some of these "Twins legend" comments might be slightly overrating Hunter's legacy. He was a fun, solid player on some fun, solid teams here for ~7 years (now 8?), but I never got the impression that he was the clear leader/star/legend that some are suggesting here. I don't recall *that* much angst over his original FA departure, and the Twins basically maintained the same level of team performance for 3 years after he left.

 

I think the outpouring of fan/media love for him this year was a reaction to the last 4 years of bad play and "meh" personalities, and his solid/surprising post-Twins aging curve, rather than the sum total of his contributions to the Twins franchise. I think he could be allowed to retire with a different club or even pursue a post-playing career elsewhere too without any furor.

[sane]

"I think the outpouring of fan/media love for him this year was a reaction to the last 4 years of bad play"

Yeah, I think that was just more of the same "outpouring of fan/media love" as the returns of Jason Bartlett,Jason Kubel and Matt Guerrier generated last spring......Did that sound sincere?

[Jham]

 

this thread is just as disgraceful as the bash hunter thread that was started back in april. 1 he is obviously still good. 2 the twins might actually make the playoffs and he has contributed significantly toward the effort. 3 he is a g-d twins legend. when he does retire it should be in a twins uniform, and when he is ready- and just like everybody else becomes ready when they start to suck so will he- but he doesnt yet. 4 even if he did suck- which he doesnt- i am happy to reward him an extra year or two, or as many as he wants, really, in appreciation of the ten freaking seasons he spent destroying his body in the concrete floored abomination that was the dome- rip. in case anyone has forgotten, those were the days in which the twins were about to be disappeared, and whether it did or not, it sure felt like hunter's contributions had something to do with saving the team from nonexistence. 5 even if haters are correct about some of what they say- namely the blockage of some milb talent- so what? is voicing that opinion really worth disrespecting one of the best twins of all time? is it really worth having that on your TD record? 6 hunter may not make the hall of fame, but he will get votes and there are players in who are less deserving. he will certainly make the twins hall and we should expect to see 48 up next to 3 6 29 34 14 and 28. let the man have his swan song without craping all over it, clamoring for untested milbers who havent earned didly and can wait their turn. 7 i'm excited for the young guys too, and if hunter chooses to retire it will be fun to see who gets a shot to replace him. if not, we get another year of a twins legend rounding out his career at 20 years and 40 plus years of age- an amazing accomplishment. there will always be a bevy of milb talent in the wait. there will never be another torii hunter. 8 if you really have to hate, at least save it for the off season lest your mudslinging jinxes the post season aspirations of the present season. 9 there is a chance that the twins get into the playoffs. there is a chance they go to the world series. there is a chance they win. maybe the chances are slim, but they are real,  and just the chance of seeing hunter win a world series with the twins is worth the risk of blocking or even losing some prospects.

 

I don't think your opinion will be echoed by many on TD, but I love your passion.  Your stance, however, is probably a popular one among local media members and ticket-holders.  I think most of Twinsdaily love to think they're more informed and knowledgeable than the average fan, media member, and occasionally the manager or GM.  In fact, most of the time they are.  Which is what makes TD great.  There's a tendency to get excited over the players that might be under-rated (usually prospects) or over-rated (usually vets) by the media or common fans, because it justifies the effort we put in to following the game on deeper levels than most.  In short, don't take the posts personally, and don't let them keep you from cheering your lungs out for your favorite players.

 

Different posters rely more or less heavily on different metrics and accept anecdotal evidence to more or less degrees.  This, to me, highlights what I love about baseball: that there are so many variables, not even the most advanced metrics can perfectly measure even most of them.  People can watch the same player and debate his merits, and completely disagree, and yet still, both can be right!  Beautifully-nuanced game.

[sane]

"I can't help but feel some of these "Twins legend" comments might be slightly overrating Hunter..I never got the impression that he was the clear leader/star/legend that some are suggesting"

I am actually NOT in favor of re-signing Hunter, if it leaves someone important off the roster. I am arguing ONLY that the importance of the leadership and the character of a team's most influential player(s)is NOT to be minimized.

Please read the following article written by one of my ex-players, who is now 3B for the World Champion Giants. I think it illustrates that importance even at the MLB level:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/matt-duffy-giants-the-new-kid/

[Otto von Ballpark]

I should have quoted it, but the post I was reacting to was immediately above mine and called Hunter a "Twins legend." I have seen John offer similar statements.

 

I don't particularly care how much you want to credit Torii's leadership for wins and losses in 2015, but I don't think his sole leadership was cited much as an important factor from 2001-2007 (or from 2008-2010 after he originally left), so I think history will ultimately judge him more on his statistical record. I think he was better and/or slightly longer tenured than some of the other notable pieces on those early clubs (Jones, Guzman, Cuddyer, etc.), but I really don't think his pre-2015 Twins contributions rise that far above "good, fun player on a few good, fun (if not particularly playoff successful) teams".

 

By 2015, Torii's complete MLB record was starting to look impressive simply for his solid longevity, which colored his return to Minnesota, but half of his relevant seasons had been accumulated elsewhere.

[DaveW]

 

While I'm certainly not advocating Hunter as a coach, I'm not sure we would have thought much of Brunansky based off of his playing days either. He was a swing first slugger with significant contact issues and a rather poor OBP for a middle of the order bat. Funny thing is , Bruno could actually draw a walk, but for some reason very few of his current pupils can.

There actually don't seem to be many hitting coaches who were considered good hitters back when they played. Wally Joyner was a good contact guy. Don Baylor, Chili Davis?

There was a 20 year gap between when Brunasky last played as a player and when he became a MAJOR LEAGUE hitting coach.

 

My point is, Hunter shouldn't be a Twins coach automatically next year, could he eventually become a good coach etc? Of course, but let him earn it throught he minors/org like everyone else does.

I still think the most likely course is a TV guy for a couple years, then maybe eventually heading into a front office position role for a few years (not a GM) with someday potentially being an asst GM or a GM.

[DaveW]

 

 

I am on record stating the Minnesota Twins should not have signed Torii Hunter. It is not that Hunter did not have some value to the team, as he still has some pop in his bat, but the Twins paid too much for him. I wanted the Twins to go after Nelson Cruz to help now and in the future. That was my opinion since the offseason.

 

In hindsight, Nelson Cruz is cleaning up in Seattle with a manageable contract in both pay and length of terms. He is not a great fielder, but neither is Hunter anymore.

Yeah, I was all over a Cruz signing. If Seattle was in the playoff hunt he would likely be the AL MVP. He would have made perfect sense for this club moving foward.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Yeah, I think that was just more of the same "outpouring of fan/media love" as the returns of Jason Bartlett,Jason Kubel and Matt Guerrier generated last spring......Did that sound sincere?

Hunter is much better and more important to Twins history than Bartlett, Kubel, and Guerrier.  He also wasn't at the stage of his career yet where he had to accept a minor league invite to spring training.

 

Still doesn't make him a Twins legend.

[DaveW]

 

 

1 he is obviously still good.

Actually by every single metric he is not obviously still "good", offensively with OPS+ wRC+ he is a bottom 6 CORNER OF in the entire major league this year (of 40+ total)

 

He is below average at best. At that is before even bringing in his subpar defense.

[DaveW]

 

 

I should have quoted it, but the post I was reacting to was immediately above mine and called Hunter a "Twins legend." I have seen John offer similar statements.

 

What is hilarious is that Joe Mauer is a significantly larger/better/more prestine "Twins Legend" yet gets criticized left and right for everything he does. Hunter on the other hand gets some ridiculous pass.

[DaveW]

 

 

Yeah, I think that was just more of the same "outpouring of fan/media love" as the returns of Jason Bartlett,Jason Kubel and Matt Guerrier generated last spring......Did that sound sincere?

Honestly, I don't recall any readl outpouring of fan/media love with the return of Bartlett, Kubel and Guerrier, I think most people realized all three were pretty poor signings at the time and had little chances of working out.

And this is coming from someone who is a HUGE Kubel fan, and actually didn't mine the signing, but I wasn't going crazy over it. Hunter at least had a real nice career as a Twin and was one of the faces of the franchise for a bit. Kubel? Nice couple years. Bartlett? lol no. Guerrier? Nah.

[KGB]

 

What is hilarious is that Joe Mauer is a significantly larger/better/more prestine "Twins Legend" yet gets criticized left and right for everything he does. Hunter on the other hand gets some ridiculous pass.

It ridiculous to say Hunter has gotten a pass - I believe we have a 100 page "Stick a fork" in him page.  Just because some people don't agree 100% with you, doesn't mean they are giving him a pass.