Should Arcia have been pulled?

[Squirrel]

Moderator note: Please let's not turn this thread into another rehashing of what the FO did or didn't do, should or shouldn't have done, or should or shouldn't do. Nor is this a rehashing about our outfield defense, although this incident would be another example to add to that discussion. We have plenty of threads for those discussions. The topic of this thread is:

 

'My question is this, it was such a "don't ever ****ing do it again moment", that I have to ask; "should Arcia have been pulled from the game to make a point? Calling it a learning moment?"'

 

While peripherals are worth noting, please keep this thread pertinent to the topic at hand. What should a manager do in this situation, and with Arcia in particular?

[h2oface]

 

Jeez, Mike.  It's been two weeks.  Cripes, fangraphs defensive stats have Arcia the #2 LFer and Hunter the #10 RFer.  

How can that be true? If it is true, what does that say about Fangraphs' defensive stats? I have to save that for later when someone uses Fangraphs as words from a deity, if it is true.

[nicksaviking]

I wouldn't bench him for dropping a ball, that's going to happen, even to good defenders, and I think that it would send the message of "Don't make mistakes!" which is never going to happen.  I'd save the benchings for an instance of not hustling, being too casual about chasing down a ball or tossing it too casually back into the infield or some other instance of "Stop being a lazy showboat!"  I think that's the real message that needs to be reinforced.

[jimmer]

 

What does that say about Fangraphs defensive stats? I have to save that for later when someone uses Fangraphs as words from a diety.

This was already addressed after he wrote it and I already pointed out the DRS rankings at Fangraphs which is really the only thing you can use this early in a season. That shows Arcia and Hunter have been as bad as our eyes have shown us. see them. It's about knowing the proper application. 

 

dWAR can't be used this early. Every LF and RF is at -.05 or .06 dWAR.  That should make it obvious it's not to be used yet.  Look at DRS this early.

[dxpavelka]

 

Pretty sure it's time to send Vargas to AAA and let Arcia DH only.

Yeah.  Let's get Schafer & Robinson in the everyday lineup.  Yeah.  That's the ticket!  World Series here we come.

 

[COtwin]

Arcia has had high strikeout numbers in the minors, but he has also had a good batting average and a good OBP.  So he is more than a one tool player.   With his struggles at the plate, we are also seeing a struggle in the field as many young players struggle to separate the two.  He should be benched for lack of effort or showboating.  But he needs to play everyday.  He should also be playing RF, as it was his best position in minors.  We already have DH candidates galore in the system.  His value is greater as an OF.

 

He has had high strikeout numbers though.

[jimmer]

 

Yeah.  Let's get Schafer & Robinson in the everyday lineup.  Yeah.  That's the ticket!  World Series here we come.

The World Series isn't coming this year whether we have Vargas and Arcia in this year or Robinson and Schaefer.

 

The latter pair are journeymen and the former pair may never pan out and are seemingly not ready.

[wavedog]

I have not watched any of the games this year but my issue was the lack of good fundamental technique on his part - slow to get in there and not in proper fielding position.  If this is the first incidence of this for him this year I would not bench him but discuss that he needs to do that in the future.  If this has been brought up several times and the same thing is occurring then a benching can be used to try to get the message sent.    Mental errors are less forgivable than physical ones.  As a fan, I would prefer to see a player that may be lacking in defensive talent - trying his best to overcome that talent shortfall with hustle and proper technique - that would be the part that concerns me in this situation.    

[gunnarthor]

 

How can that be true? If it is true, what does that say about Fangraphs' defensive stats? I have to save that for later when someone uses Fangraphs as words from a deity, if it is true.

It doesn't mean anything.  Defensive stats are terribly susceptible to SSS.  And we still know how to accurately measure defensive stats or accurately value them.  So we can say, "hey, this defensive stat says X, this defensive stat says Y."  It doesn't matter.  Jimmer has it right when he says we knew that Hunter and Arcia wouldn't be good defenders.  But how bad (and both how it's measured and valued) is up for "debate."

 

As to the theme of this thread, I've already said that Molitor was right not to pull him.

[Seth Stohs]

My initial reaction when the play happened was disbelief. I tweeted a couple of things about how bad it was. I wondered if Molitor would take him out right away. I tend to think he'll maybe get benched tonight. I am almost certain that he received a talking to by Molitor and probably others tonight, out of the view of cameras.

 

As I look back and saw the replay, it wasn't quite so bad. There's absolutely no good excuse for it. It should never happen... but it does from time to time. It's clear what happened. He had the ball easily, and he took his eye off of it before it got to his glove. Because it's in the OF, it looks terrible. 

 

Then again, how many infielders do the same thing on ground balls. They look up a little early and boot it. It shouldn't happen, but it does. It just is glaring in the OF.

 

I guess now I chalk it up as a mistake. It has nothing to do with his overall defensive ability (or ineptitude, if you prefer). It's a ball he catches 999 out of 1000 times, maybe even more than that. 

 

Hopefully it becomes a learning thing for him. We can hope. 

 

The whole 'catch with 2 hands' thing, I'm kind of against. 

 

So yeah, I think it needs and needed to get addressed, but I'm thinking that we are probably over-thinking it in the big picture. He's not a good outfielder, but that was a fluke, bad (horrible) play.

[jimmer]

 

According to Fangraphs Arcia is at 19 out of 20 in DRS and out of the 24 qualifying RF, only Trumbo is worse than Hunter in DRS..

 

 

Fangraphs has updated.  

 

There have been 23 LF that have played 70 or more innings in LF. Arcia is 21st out of 23 in DRS with -3 runs.  One of the two guys at -4 has played 30 more innings out there.

 

In RF, out of the 25 that have played 70 or more innings, only Trumbo has been worse than Hunter.

[tobi0040]

 

Fangraphs has updated.  

 

There have been 23 LF that have played 70 or more innings in LF. Arcia is 21st out of 23 in DRS with -3 runs.  One of the two guys at -4 has played 30 more innings out there.

 

In RF, out of the 25 that have played 70 or more innings, only Trumbo has been worse.

 

Can we trade for Trumbo and put him in CF?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

How can that be true? If it is true, what does that say about Fangraphs' defensive stats? I have to save that for later when someone uses Fangraphs as words from a deity, if it is true.

It's not true.  The poster was quoting Fangraphs dWAR, which at this point in the season is simply the generic positional adjustment.  The player's actual defensive performance as estimated by UZR is not yet included.

 

So you can put away the pitchforks.

[jokin]

 

Shades of Doc's OP

 

 

 

 

During the pitching change, Arcia gathered with fellow outfielders Jordan Schafer and Torii Hunter and expressed his regret at making such a simple mistake.

"He's a young kid," said Schafer, who had a misadventure of his own in the eighth. "He'll kick himself in the butt. Same thing that Torii told him in the outfield: 'Never let it happen again.' It's a human thing. We make mistakes. As long as he learns from it and it doesn't happen again, that's the only thing that matters. Let's move on."

 

Morales added another run-scoring hit in the eighth when Schafer failed to glove his catchable bloop in short center field. Shading Morales to left center, Schafer made a long run and pulled up briefly when he saw second baseman Brian Dozier raise his hands.

"That usually signals, 'Hey, I got the ball,' but basically he was trying to say he didn't know where the ball was," Schafer said. "When I saw his hands up, I kind of shut it down. I tried to make a last-second effort to try to catch it."

 

I'm not a Schafer-backer at all, but when I watched the play he's referring to live, Dozier's physical gesture appeared to indicate for everyone else to "clear out".  It's important to point out, that like most of the team, Dozier hasn't gotten off to a stellar start in the field either, he also has those two blown DPs  due to nonchalant gloved ball-flips.  Hunter's recent between-the-legs fielding "gem" comes to mind, as well.  Has that casual defensive style of "mentorship" carried over to Arcia?  Arcia, out of anyone, and playing a new position besides, needs to be held to a "fundamentals-first" mandate, and mentored accordingly. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It doesn't mean anything.  Defensive stats are terribly susceptible to SSS.  And we still know how to accurately measure defensive stats or accurately value them.  So we can say, "hey, this defensive stat says X, this defensive stat says Y."  It doesn't matter.

You did see my post, right?

 

Obviously I wouldn't rely on this sample yet (and indeed I didn't quote any stats myself), but your refutation of the stats with "these stats say differently" was not true in the least.  The stats you quoted didn't say anything except how many innings each qualified player had logged, ranked from least to most.

 

Notice how the UZR columns are blank for 2015 at Fangraphs?  That's the actual skill estimate part of dWAR.  Those are probably the columns you should look at (UZR or UZR/150, or DRS, or TZ) if you are comparing players at the same position anyway, rather than dWAR.

[gunnarthor]

 

You did see my post, right?

 

Obviously I wouldn't rely on this sample yet (and indeed I didn't quote any stats myself), but your refutation of the stats with "these stats say differently" was not true in the least.  The stats you quoted didn't say anything except how many innings each qualified player had logged, ranked from least to most.

 

Notice how the UZR columns are blank for 2015 at Fangraphs?  That's the actual skill estimate part of dWAR.  Those are probably the columns you should look at (UZR or UZR/150, or DRS, or TZ) if you are comparing players at the same position anyway, rather than dWAR.

I wasn't trying to actually quote stats for having any worth - I was pointing out to Mike how silly it is to worry about Hunter's slow start.  (Which snowballed into this discussion).  

 

[davidc3915]

Most little league coaches would have yanked a player for that play.  Not only for the low level of effort in getting into position, but the lack of fundamentals used to attempt the catch.  A high school mamager would have for sure.  I was among the many that was crossing my fingers and hoping that Arcia's shortcomings as a fielder could be overlooked by his bat.  At this rate, I'm not sure the Twins can afford it........

[Hrbowski]

They should not have, players make mistakes and if they got pulled for every mistake they made you would have an empty bench. Instead Molitor should make him take extra practice on fly balls for the remainder of the week.

[mnfireman]

Yanking Arcia was not and is not the answer. As a coach I would have talked to him about it away from the rest of the players, he's gonna feel bad enough about dropping the ball and letting his team down. Next I would hope he's professional enough to want to catch the 250 flyballs I am going to hit to him everyday for the rest of the season. As bad as Arcia's play was, Gibson shouldn't have let it bother him so much that he walked the next batter and served up that double to Morales.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Back to Arcia,  here is a direct link to the video:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v81918783

 

It doesn't look good, that's for sure.

 

I might bench the Royals announcers for repeatedly mis-pronouncing Arcia's name too:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGXQIy-FUow

[jimmer]

 

Back to Arcia,  here is a direct link to the video:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v81918783

 

It doesn't look good, that's for sure.

 

I might bench the Royals announcers for repeatedly mis-pronouncing Arcia's name too:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGXQIy-FUow

Having spent quite a bit of time in Central and South America, and being mostly fluent in Spanish, I mispronounced his name for quite some time too so I can't really fault the other teams' announcers for messing it up. I've known people with the same last name that pronounce it the other way. I thought our announcers were getting it wrong because they do mispronounce a lot of names.  

 

[TheLeviathan]

One thing on this from the Molly/Arcia angle:

 

It's refreshing to not hear Arcia being made into the scapegoat publicly by our manager.  (Unless I missed it)  That sort of thing would've had Gardy railing on Arcia like crazy.  Assuming this is being handled behind closed doors, that's exactly where and how it ought to be handled.

 

So kudos to Molly on that front.

[tobi0040]

 

They should not have, players make mistakes and if they got pulled for every mistake they made you would have an empty bench. Instead Molitor should make him take extra practice on fly balls for the remainder of the week.

 

I would not have pulled him either.  But "mistake" does not seem like the right word. A mistake is mis-playing the ball.  Hot dogging is something different.

[powrwrap]

 

 

I just watched the play. I would have pulled him in the half inning, without a doubt. That is inexcusable. He just was lazy.

 

When I was a kid I was taught to get into position and catch the ball with two hands. I do not understand why anyone would ever do anything different than that. He had ample time to *at least* be square to the damn ball when catching it. Good god. 

 

 

^^ This right here. ^^

 

And newsflash--Arcia is not going to become a better outfielder. He lacks the instincts to get a good jump on balls, can't make the instant judgment needed, and he's got a prideful "look at me" attitude, which is ironic because he's not very good.

 

[tobi0040]

 

One thing on this from the Molly/Arcia angle:

 

It's refreshing to not hear Arcia being made into the scapegoat publicly by our manager.  (Unless I missed it)  That sort of thing would've had Gardy railing on Arcia like crazy.  Assuming this is being handled behind closed doors, that's exactly where and how it ought to be handled.

 

So kudos to Molly on that front.

 

I agree completely. everything was somebody else's fault, usually a rookie or second year guy.

[jokin]

 

Back to Arcia,  here is a direct link to the video:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v81918783

 

It doesn't look good, that's for sure.

 

I might bench the Royals announcers for repeatedly mis-pronouncing Arcia's name too:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGXQIy-FUow

 

Thankyou for the link.  Based on the discussion here and elsewhere, I thought perhaps I'd mis-remembered what I clearly saw last night.  Particularly because of the team-wide defensive struggles, this continued nonchalance and blatant disregard of fundamentals is unacceptable and  needs to be nipped in the bud.  Can the manager still impose fines on bonehead mis-plays such as these... or is that no longer allowed in the CBA?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

One thing on this from the Molly/Arcia angle:

 

It's refreshing to not hear Arcia being made into the scapegoat publicly by our manager.  (Unless I missed it)  That sort of thing would've had Gardy railing on Arcia like crazy.  Assuming this is being handled behind closed doors, that's exactly where and how it ought to be handled.

 

So kudos to Molly on that front.

 

This is all I've read:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/21/bbo-twins-royals-writethru-idUSMTZEB4L4ZIHTB20150421

 

 

 

"We've had a few of those games where they've had shape for a while and then things kind of broke down for us," Twins manager Paul Molitor said. "We missed the play in left, and we can't contain them at the end to give ourselves a chance. We tried to stay in the game. We didn't have much offense. It did get out of hand at the end.

"I'm not sure if it was a light issue (on Arcia's error). It wasn't a very high ball. It led to an inning where we fell behind. We want our guys to catch the ball. That's kind of an obvious thing."

 

[jokin]

 

I wouldn't bench him for dropping a ball, that's going to happen, even to good defenders, and I think that it would send the message of "Don't make mistakes!" which is never going to happen.  I'd save the benchings for an instance of not hustling, being too casual about chasing down a ball or tossing it too casually back into the infield or some other instance of "Stop being a lazy showboat!"  I think that's the real message that needs to be reinforced.

 

Check the video again, pretty damning.

[jimbo92107]

 

Yank him. That was an attitude catch... or no catch. He does this all the time. He doesn't watch the ball into the glove, even when he catches it, and he is terrified of the wall. Once he get to the warning track he is petrified. This lazy effort needed a message sent.

Exactly. Arcia has been dogging it in LF ever since they shifted him over there to make room for Torii Hunter. On this play, he very casually jogged to catch an easy rainbow fly, then took his eye off the ball to look out into center field for some reason. Bonk. I see kids do that, but pros are supposed to be smart enough to follow the ball all the way to the glove, because...it keeps on curving. You NEVER hold your glove in one place and assume the ball will land in it. You have to keep adjusting, all the way in. Sometimes a guy will hotdog it, just to show how easy it is for him. That's when nature makes him look like a chump.

 

Trouble is, Arcia later botched a ball that caromed off the fence, allowing yet another runner to advance. He cost the team at least one run, maybe two, and prevented Gibson from continuing a good performance. It's hard enough surviving as a pitcher without one of your fielders going on an ego holiday. Though I think Arcia's got lots of talent, I'd sit him down, then send him down. The team doesn't need a Latino Delmon Young. Instead, bring up somebody that's willing to bust his tail and learn. Bring up Adam Brett Walker.

[jimmer]

 

Exactly. Arcia has been dogging it in LF ever since they shifted him over there to make room for Torii Hunter. 

In fairness, I'm pretty sure he often dogged it in RF last year too.  

 

Either way, he's just a bad defender.