Mauer: Lack of Training and Overflow of Excuses Catching Up to Him

[DrNeau]

While this post is critical of Joe Mauer, it is comprised of nothing I have made up on my own. Each point has been pulled from news articles from reputable sources, and many contain quotes from Joe himself. I am simply merging together snippets of information, and would like to begin a discussion on this. I am a fan of Joe, but I am extremely frustrated, and would like to see a change, and know there are many fans who agree, and we have a right to discuss this topic. 

 

Points of discussion:

 

1. Lack of training

 

Exhibit A - Lack of Training

 

1. Article on January 21st, 2014 where Mauer admitted:

A.) he hadn't yet swung a bat all offseason
B.) he is progressively delaying beginning training later and later each year
C.) he begins training for next season at spring training - not prior

* http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_24962055/minnesota-twins-joe-mauer-feeling-good-taking-it

 

2. Article in 2014 where he states that while catching, his only leg workouts were catching bullpens. He said it, not me! http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/03/07/joe-mauer-moves-to-first-base/6167525/

 

3. Mauer spent the offseason before the 2015 season stretching. I repeat: STRETCHING: "Just overall, I feel great," Mauer said. A full offseason spent working with St. Paul stretching guru Roger Erickson helped Mauer chase away the soreness and body tightness that goes with being on the wrong side of 30. It also helped the six-time all-star selection reclaim a good portion of the trunk flexibility and bat extension he gradually had lost over the years.
http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_27844197/twins-joe-mauer-ready-reboot-after-offseason-makeover

 

Article continues on to talk about Mauer's newly-found pull power. Pretty hilarious.

Exhibit B - Clearly does not look as if he is on a strength training program
* http://www.twincities.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=5684567
* http://www.1500espn.com/gallery/minnesota_twinsphoto_day_022414/pID69376
* http://www.1500espn.com/gallery/minnesota_twinsphoto_day_022414/pID69372

 

--------------------------

 

2. Excuses we have heard:

 

* Defensive shifts by opponents: http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2014/05/24/twinsights-faced-with-reverse-shift-joe-mauer-starts-to-pull-more/

* He has a slightly slower bat swing making him vulnerable to the high outside pitch: Have heard this, though not much of an excuse. His bat speed has dipped because of lack of training.
* He is having more difficulty with an increasing mix of off speed pitches he is seeing (being pitched around): http://www.startribune.com/analysis-why-does-joe-mauer-have-only-one-career-walk-off-hit/328056491/
* He is unlucky - but is still hitting balls hard: http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2014/05/24/twinsights-faced-with-reverse-shift-joe-mauer-starts-to-pull-more/
* Concussion: Happened in late August 2013. Was cleared in October 2013 to resume baseball activities. Stated in spring of 2014 that he "felt good". Stated in spring of 2015 that he was "excited", "felt good". 
* The move to 1B from Catcher has made it more difficult for him to locate the strike zone and track pitches while batting: http://www.foxsports.com/north/story/twins-tuesday-mauer-getting-back-into-old-habits-062414
* Poor talent surrounding him: http://www.startribune.com/mauer-hitting-3rd-because-with-twins-options-he-belongs-there/311568841/
* Batted 2nd in the lineup, which produced less RBI opportunities
* Umpires no longer giving him benefit of calls, as he's no longer a Catcher: http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_25541427/charley-walters-twins-joe-mauer-frustrated-by-umps
* Weak legs... he's not getting as many squat workouts, because he hasn't been catching BP: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/03/07/joe-mauer-moves-to-first-base/6167525/
* Bad back: http://www.startribune.com/souhan-back-injury-might-be-continuing-to-bother-mauer/259746021/
* Target Field is too tough to hit in: http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/4008/how-target-field-is-hurting-mauer-morneau
* Catching for 11 years still wears on him... even though he hasn't caught since 2013, Mauer claims he is still ailed by "nicks and bruises" from catching: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/115147454/anthony-castrovince-healthy-legs-are-foundation-of-joe-mauers-hope-to-rebound
* One walk off hit in career because he has been pitched around (classic): http://www.startribune.com/analysis-why-does-joe-mauer-have-only-one-career-walk-off-hit/328056491/

 

--------------------------

 

For laughs:

 

Quote from Kenny Vargas on 3/7/2014 on how Mauer's transition to 1B will be easy: "I told him he's going to feel more comfortable. You can focus more on home runs and RBIs, because you don't have as much to do."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/03/07/joe-mauer-moves-to-first-base/6167525/

[Willihammer]

You are aware he has a 37-game on base streak going, the longest streak for a Twin since Bob Allison's 42 game streak in 1961.

[Willihammer]

Since Sano joined the team on Jul 2, Mauer has been batting right in front of him. There are 4 games Mauer hasn't reached base at least once.

 

We all wish Mauer had 30 HR power but absent that, getting on in front of the big man is probably the next best thing he could be doing. And he's been doing just that.

[SweetOne69]

Your "proof" doesn't amount to squat.

 

In the 2013 offseason he was recovering from a concussion.  He was trying to recover enough to do baseball activities so it make sense that he hadn't swung a bat yet in January of 2014.

 

Just because he says that he spent a lot of time with a stretch guru doesn't mean that is all that he did all offseason.

 

Mauer probably works out as much as most professional athletes.

[Winston Smith]

 

You are aware he has a 37-game on base streak going, the longest streak for a Twin since Bob Allison's 42 game streak in 1961.

I don't see how this streak makes up for overall below average production for the 1b position. OPS+ of 96 and 10th out of 12 AL qualified 1b in WAR.

[dgwills]

I always root for Joe, but his work ethic has irked me these last few years. If he was doing well it would not bother me. This is his job that he is paid well to do. He has lived to easy of a life. To be fair I always did like Hrbek and he was not known for his work ethic either.

[dgwills]

 

Your "proof" doesn't amount to squat.

 

In the 2013 offseason he was recovering from a concussion.  He was trying to recover enough to do baseball activities so it make sense that he hadn't swung a bat yet in January of 2014.

 

Just because he says that he spent a lot of time with a stretch guru doesn't mean that is all that he did all offseason.

 

Mauer probably works out as much as most professional athletes.

I take it you did not see this years hard knocks. J.J. Watt works out more in a week than Mauer does all year. Makes 9 million less annually too.

[DrNeau]

 

Your "proof" doesn't amount to squat.

 

In the 2013 offseason he was recovering from a concussion.  He was trying to recover enough to do baseball activities so it make sense that he hadn't swung a bat yet in January of 2014.

 

Just because he says that he spent a lot of time with a stretch guru doesn't mean that is all that he did all offseason.

 

Mauer probably works out as much as most professional athletes.

 

Your "probably" doesn't amount to squat. 

 

Also stated in the same article: 

Mauer, who has been symptom-free since late October, typically doesn't do much hitting in the offseason in order to conserve energy for the long grind ahead.

"I haven't swung the bat yet," Mauer said. "Last year was different because of the (World Baseball Classic), but every year it's been later and later. I'll get to camp, and I think we'll have plenty of time to get ready for the season."

 

B.) he is progressively delaying beginning training later and later each year
C.) he begins training for next season at spring training - not prior

Also, the writer, Mike Berardino, stated that Mauer typically doesn't do much hitting in the offseason. 

 

Again, these are things that are coming from either Mauer himself or reputable members of the press. 

Thanks for your reply, though!

[nicksaviking]

I think the 'facts' being presented are as about as tenuous as the 'facts' given during a political debate.  Are they true? Some of them, if you look at it from a particular perspective.  Using Mauer's 2013-14 off season to judge his workout regimen probably isn't too fair seeing as he was recovering from his concussion issues, and just about every 'fact' is about the 2013-14 off season.

 

I also fail to see how Joe stretching this past off season is some kind of indictment on his workout habits.  Is stretching bad? If the intended implication is that Joe was only stretching, there was nothing in that link that suggested so and this post goes from borderline objective to intentionally skewing.

[nytwinsfan]

To be fair to Mauer, some of those limits on his training probably have a lot to do with recovering from the concussion.  This has been said many times, but it is a serious brain injury.  And also, I think the thought (by Mauer and his coaches) was that his lack of production is more about the injury and being stiff, rather than about lack of strength or conditioning.  Maybe they were all wrong, and what he needed was more strength and conditioning early, and more BP sessions. But I don't think we can say that with any certainty, and in any event, I don't think that justifies us imputing "laziness" to Mauer (which is the clear connotation of part 1 of your post, even if you didn't make it explicit).

 

That being said, I don't really think the 37-game streak is really that big a deal or a reason to be optimistic. During those 37 games he has hit .282/.372/.387 (.759), which is better than his season numbers, but not much better, and certainly not what we need from Mauer for him to be a valuable, or even average first baseman. 

 

At some point, if his current production continues, I think the Twins will move him down in the batting order.  But the reality is that the only other things the Twins can do at this point are: (1) try different things, like pulling more (even though that failed), training differently (I support that for next season if his trainers think it might help), focusing on different things, and (2) hope his brain injury heals further. 

[Willihammer]

 

I don't see how this streak makes up for overall below average production for the 1b position. OPS+ of 96 and 10th out of 12 AL qualified 1b in WAR.

I guess so, I just have to laugh at the timing.

 

His last couple seasons have disappointed, I agree. He is not a traditional corner bat, but he never was. His 2009 was an aberration, clearly. He has since regressed into the player he always was and then some. I would not be surprised if the pendulum swung back the other way in 2016-2017. His track record is too long and consistent and he's not that old.

[DrNeau]

 

I also fail to see how Joe stretching this past off season is some kind of indictment on his workout habits.  Is stretching bad? If the intended implication is that Joe was only stretching, there was nothing in that link that suggested so and this post goes from borderline objective to intentionally skewing.

 

Thanks, nicksaviking, for your attempt to discredit me. As I did not write that article, and am merely sharing public information, please direct your comments to Mike Berardino, the writer from the Pioneer Press. 

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

You are aware he has a 37-game on base streak going, the longest streak for a Twin since Bob Allison's 42 game streak in 1961.

The recency of this success does not make the posters argument invalid. Glad he is finding a way to get back on base frequently, but this post does not seem to be about JM "sucking," but rather looking at reasons why he hasn't been the JM that we first fell in love with. 

 

My simplified opinion is that Joe was a smart hitter, young, but not athletically elite, nor much of hard worker when it comes to strangling his body when he entered the league. You can get away with that when you are young, but as you age you either need to be physically gifted naturally, age well, and or work you butt off in the offseason to keep up. These seem to be the things the poster is talking about, not that JM isn't a good player. 

 

*Am loving the recent production though, even it is not really next-level or elite for a 1B, but certainly better than his recent history. Hope he keeps it up because I will take this JM.

[old nurse]

Given the spat I laughed at these vidieos

 

https://www.mauersquickswing.com/

http://www.stack.com/2014/07/03/joe-mauer-workout/

 

http://www.stack.com/2014/07/03/joe-mauer-workout/

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/upper-body-workout-time-for-an-upper-body-workout-joe-puts-about-spotlight-joe-mauer-all-access-on-foxsportsnorthcom

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/finishing-strong-joe-continues-to-walk-us-through-his-upper-about-spotlight-joe-mauer-all-access-on-foxsportsnorthcom

[USAFChief]

 

I guess so, I just have to laugh at the timing.

 

His last couple seasons have disappointed, I agree. He is not a traditional corner bat, but he never was. His 2009 was an aberration, clearly. He has since regressed into the player he always was and then some. I would not be surprised if the pendulum swung back the other way in 2016-2017. His track record is too long and consistent and he's not that old.

Not true.  Actually, he's regressed well past the player he always was.  

 

His 2014/15 BA's are the two lowest of his career.

His 2014/15 OBP's are two of the three lowest of his career, with only injury plagued 2011 worse (by .001) than 2014.

His 2014/15 SLG's are two of the three lowest of his career, with 2011 again the only worse year.

 

By any measure, including OPS or OPS+, 2014/15 are two of the three worst seasons of his career, with only 2011 in the same range.  

 

 

[dgwills]

 

Given the spat I laughed at these vidieos

 

https://www.mauersquickswing.com/

http://www.stack.com/2014/07/03/joe-mauer-workout/

 

http://www.stack.com/2014/07/03/joe-mauer-workout/

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/upper-body-workout-time-for-an-upper-body-workout-joe-puts-about-spotlight-joe-mauer-all-access-on-foxsportsnorthcom

http://www.snappytv.com/snaps/finishing-strong-joe-continues-to-walk-us-through-his-upper-about-spotlight-joe-mauer-all-access-on-foxsportsnorthcom

That is funny. I'll have to recommend these workout programs to my mom.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

Currently, Joe Mauer is as much an "athlete" as are pitchers, or NASCAR/golfers are. Mauer has a "skill," and that is to hit a baseball. That skill is diminishing, with his body diminishing. He still owns that skill, but a better body would likely bring better returns on his skill. There is no one way to improve a persons body, but working hard and often doing "something" is at least directionally right. 

[KGB]

 

Your "proof" doesn't amount to squat.

 

In the 2013 offseason he was recovering from a concussion.  He was trying to recover enough to do baseball activities so it make sense that he hadn't swung a bat yet in January of 2014.

 

Just because he says that he spent a lot of time with a stretch guru doesn't mean that is all that he did all offseason.

 

Mauer probably works out as much as most professional athletes.

Except in the article Mauer said he has been symptom-free since October 2013, so why couldn't he work out?

 

"Mauer, who has been symptom-free since late October, typically doesn't do much hitting in the offseason in order to conserve energy for the long grind ahead."

 

Sorry - see that was already brought up

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

The recency of this success does not make the posters argument invalid. Glad he is finding a way to get back on base frequently, but this post does not seem to be about JM "sucking," but rather looking at reasons why he hasn't been the JM that we first fell in love with. 

 

This is exactly what I took from reading it. It also should go without saying that most of Mauer's critics are still his fans and we want him to do well. I think the OP pointed that out, too. 

 

I also predicted Mauer would bounce back this year offensively. He hasn't. That makes me wary of predicting next year will be the bounce back year. 

 

This post also does not address Mauer's fielding at first base, which unfortunately is below average and not getting better, in my opinion. Kennys Vargas has played first his entire career, has good instincts and makes some good plays, and has much more room for improvement than Mauer, I'd bet. 

 

Let's hope the Twins are having this exact same discussion, about the future of Mauer. It's Joe Mauer for pete's sake! We all want this to end well. If Mauer's hitting skills are gone, then the Twins need to find another way for it to end well, that doesn't involve him hitting. 

[Willihammer]

 

Not true.  Actually, he's regressed well past the player he always was.  

 

His 2014/15 BA's are the two lowest of his career.

His 2014/15 OBP's are two of the three lowest of his career, with only injury plagued 2011 worse (by .001) than 2014.

His 2014/15 SLG's are two of the three lowest of his career, with 2011 again the only worse year.

 

By any measure, including OPS or OPS+, 2014/15 are two of the three worst seasons of his career, with only 2011 in the same range.  

That's exactly why a correction seems possible, if not likely. In the same way he regressed after 2009 which were all career highs.

 

I doubt he's a 135+ OPS batter anymore but something in the 115 OPS+ range seems reasonable as a new mean. That's just my gut feeling about it. I can't believe he's fallen all the way to a league average batter from here on out. He's too talented IMO.

[Hrbowski]

I would like to point out that every MLB player has their own offseason routine, and that just because one varies from the other does not make it wrong.

[Hrbowski]

 

Currently, Joe Mauer is as much an "athlete" as are pitchers, or NASCAR/golfers are. Mauer has a "skill," and that is to hit a baseball. That skill is diminishing, with his body diminishing. He still owns that skill, but a better body would likely bring better returns on his skill. There is no one way to improve a persons body, but working hard and often doing "something" is at least directionally right. 

I think it is ridiculous that people try to say that pitchers aren't athletes, to be able to consistently throw the ball over and over for very high speeds requires being athletic, even if you don't look the part, so yes, Madison Bumgarner and Jonathan Broxton are athletes.

[DaveW]

Mauer has looked solid lately and has stayed healthy all year. The timing of this post is odd.

[ken]

 

120229CP-KJ-GOLF12_5426153_ver1.0_640_480.jpgI always root for Joe, but his work ethic has irked me these last few years. If he was doing well it would not bother me. This is his job that he is paid well to do. He has lived to easy of a life. To be fair I always did like Hrbek and he was not known for his work ethic either.

I think the Hrbek comparison is good, Hrbek was 2nd in Rookie of Year and 2nd in MVP at the age of 24 and I thought we were watching a HOF player.  But if never seemed like he worked at his game and ended up a good but not great player and out of the game at 34.  Mauer was first ballot HOF talent, who doesn't look like he going to make it to the Hall.  Feels now he just around because of the contract and not his contributions.  And the concussion excuses are getting old when even he says he has no symptoms.  Can't believe someone with a brain injury is actually going to play more games after the injury than before.

[laloesch]

 

To be fair to Mauer, some of those limits on his training probably have a lot to do with recovering from the concussion.  This has been said many times, but it is a serious brain injury.  And also, I think the thought (by Mauer and his coaches) was that his lack of production is more about the injury and being stiff, rather than about lack of strength or conditioning.  Maybe they were all wrong, and what he needed was more strength and conditioning early, and more BP sessions. But I don't think we can say that with any certainty, and in any event, I don't think that justifies us imputing "laziness" to Mauer (which is the clear connotation of part 1 of your post, even if you didn't make it explicit).

 

That being said, I don't really think the 37-game streak is really that big a deal or a reason to be optimistic. During those 37 games he has hit .282/.372/.387 (.759), which is better than his season numbers, but not much better, and certainly not what we need from Mauer for him to be a valuable, or even average first baseman. 

 

At some point, if his current production continues, I think the Twins will move him down in the batting order.  But the reality is that the only other things the Twins can do at this point are: (1) try different things, like pulling more (even though that failed), training differently (I support that for next season if his trainers think it might help), focusing on different things, and (2) hope his brain injury heals further. 

 

I think he's just lazy and that's about it.  I mean the video's he's put out regarding his training and the offseason golfing gut picture say it all.  Joe Mauer is lazy.  He does nothing in the offseason except play with his money.  Simple as that.

[nytwinsfan]

 

I think he's just lazy and that's about it.  I mean the video's he's put out regarding his training and the offseason golfing gut picture say it all.  Joe Mauer is lazy.  He does nothing in the offseason except play with his money.  Simple as that.

 

laloesch's conception of Joe Mauer, essentially: http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2013/06/ducktales-money-bin.jpg

[SF Twins Fan]

This post was such a waste of time.  I like how you take little parts of all of these posts and only the parts that seem to make it look like Mauer doesn't work out in the off season.  If Mauer started to stretch in an off season to increase his flexibility is that a bad thing???? It doesn't say anywhere in the article that was all he was doing.  It just said he incorporated more stretching to help him out.  

 

I like how you completely skip this line from the first article:

 

"To his credit, Joe works," Brunansky said. "He'd even say, 'Come on, let's go out early.' We'll say, 'We're going to go play.' No one's around. It's nice. It's cool."

 

To me that shows he's willing to put in extra work for his transition to 1st base. 

 

Here's another quote from Rod Carew:

 

 "His footwork over there is good," Carew said. "The more he plays, the more balls will get hit at him, and his reaction will be OK. He's going to make some plays. The diving plays, and the stuff like that, that's all reaction. As long as he makes the routine plays, he'll be fine. He's working at it. Since we've been down here, he has put a lot of work into it."

 

If you're going to pull little "snippets of information" as you say then you should pull some from both sides of the spectrum.  Otherwise you're just cherry picking quotes to make your point and it's not all full facts. You're not giving the full truth to what the articles were saying. 

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

I think it is ridiculous that people try to say that pitchers aren't athletes, to be able to consistently throw the ball over and over for very high speeds requires being athletic, even if you don't look the part, so yes, Madison Bumgarner and Jonathan Broxton are athletes.

Okay, I led us astray. They are athletes, they just don't NEED to be athletic. Possessing a physically specific skill, doesn't always take overall full-body athleticism.

[dgwills]

 

This post was such a waste of time.  I like how you take little parts of all of these posts and only the parts that seem to make it look like Mauer doesn't work out in the off season.  If Mauer started to stretch in an off season to increase his flexibility is that a bad thing???? It doesn't say anywhere in the article that was all he was doing.  It just said he incorporated more stretching to help him out.  

 

I like how you completely skip this line from the first article:

 

"To his credit, Joe works," Brunansky said. "He'd even say, 'Come on, let's go out early.' We'll say, 'We're going to go play.' No one's around. It's nice. It's cool."

 

To me that shows he's willing to put in extra work for his transition to 1st base. 

 

Here's another quote from Rod Carew:

 

 "His footwork over there is good," Carew said. "The more he plays, the more balls will get hit at him, and his reaction will be OK. He's going to make some plays. The diving plays, and the stuff like that, that's all reaction. As long as he makes the routine plays, he'll be fine. He's working at it. Since we've been down here, he has put a lot of work into it."

 

If you're going to pull little "snippets of information" as you say then you should pull some from both sides of the spectrum.  Otherwise you're just cherry picking quotes to make your point and it's not all full facts. You're not giving the full truth to what the articles were saying. 

Couldn't help but notice Carew used the qualifier "Since we've been down here". (hope you can appreciate the irony)

[D. Hocking]

The new off season routine might not have gotten the results that were desired, but people are making it sound like he went to the community center three times a week and participated in one of the classes.  He sought out someone who is considered an expert nationally and tried to develop a program that would specifically address some of his baseball needs have some long term benefits.  He also spent extra time with Bruno trying trying new things in the batting cage. 

 

The extra time might not have paid off, but I do think he is trying to make adjustments to age and whatever physical ailments he might be experiencing.  Maybe he needs to change what he is doing in the off-season, but I have heard and read a lot more over the years that suggests he has a good work ethic vs. being lazy.