Does the Twins Front Office Have Difficulty Admitting When They Are Wrong?

I agree completely.  I think that we have seen them fall in love with the players that they acquire - wanting them to prove their genius.  

I look at the Twins players that were acquired year by year and until Gray and Ryan and Duran came along it is a head shaker.  I have to include Maeda in the positive column too although his health means we only had the shortened year of Covid where he truly shined.  Below is our acquisition list without the four in this paragraph

• 2018 
  • Lance Lynn - 31 games
  • Addison Read - 4,50 era in BP - 55 games
• 2019
  • Martin Perez - 28 games, 5.12 era (and now he shines in Texas
• 2020
  • Sergio Romo - 24 games, 4.05 era
  • Homer Bailey - 2 games
• 2021
  • Alex Colome - 67 games 4.15 era
  • Hansel Robles - 45 games 4.91 era
  • J Happ - 19 starts, 6.77 era
  • Matt Shoemaker - 11 starts, 8.06 era
• 2022
  • Dylan Bundy - 29 starts, 4.89
  • Chris Archer - 25 ga,es 4.56 era
  • Emilio Pagan - 59 games 4.43 era
  • Chris Paddack - 5 games 4.03 era - enjoying a well paid recovery time
  • Tyler Mahle - 4 games 4.41 era - also enjoying a well paid recovery time

To me this is more than Pagen, it is the mid 20 and older pitchers on the 40 that are injured, aren't good or they don't trust. SWR, Winder, Sands, Henriquez, Headrick, Canterino, Balazovic, Alcala. With little to no other top prospects on the horizon. Prielipp (4 innings in A+), Raya (14 innings A+), Festa (5.58 ERA AA)

So the Twins cut him, who do we get more of? the list above? Another 30 year has been or never was?

The thing this FO needs to admit is that can't identify or groom top end talent, they are great at identifying role players and middle relief pitchers.

6 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

To me this is more than Pagen, it is the mid 20 and older pitchers on the 40 that are injured, aren't good or they don't trust. SWR, Winder, Sands, Henriquez, Headrick, Canterino, Balazovic, Alcala. With little to no other top prospects on the horizon. Prielipp (4 innings in A+), Raya (14 innings A+), Festa (5.58 ERA AA)

So the Twins cut him, who do we get more of? the list above? Another 30 year has been or never was?

The thing this FO needs to admit is that can't identify or groom top end talent, they are great at identifying role players and middle relief pitchers.

 

No baseball expert here but I think they leave pitchers at AAA too long and by the time they get here are prone to injury.

Should have moved on from Pagan in offseason, would have been better for Twins and Pagan. My take on the Twins is they don't like to release players they owe money. With Pagan signed for the year, doubt if released until late in year or a late year trip to IL and never return.

Pagan is the Ron Davis of the 2020's.

The team has no faith in him and with Theilbar out and Jax now struggling, the bullpen is in serious trouble. I don't know if Chapman would be the answer, but they need someone reliable.

Poor fielding & an atrocious strikeout rate only make matters worse and need to be fixed or this team is going nowhere.

I have to admit a certain fondness for the show The Big Bang Theory. In a particularly funny episode, Sheldon compels his new gal pal (Amy) to watch Raiders of the Lost Ark, which is his favorite movie.  She studiously watches it and says that she enjoyed it. But then she points out that the outcome for the Ark would have been exactly the same if Indiana Jones had never shown up in the first place. Sheldon in incensed. He objects, stammers, thinks about it, stammers and then goes silent. Amy!!!

The FO has become my Indiana Jones. They flail around a lot and make tons of noise but I not sure they are adding any value. For every good decision they make (Cruz for Ryan, trading Donaldson), they make an equally dumb one (Pagan, acquiring Donaldson in the first place).  I wonder if they are afraid of snakes too?

Ps. I have been up north the past few days and had access only to the SF games through the MLB radio app. I switched off Dan Gasbag  and listened instead to Jon Miller of the Giants. That is roughly the equivalent of asking my wife if she would rather hear me or Pavarotti singing in the shower.       

This is the strangest FO the organ I zation has had in many years.  Strange signings, strange trades, not much roster stability.  Way too much turnover.

Someone in the local media should ask Falvey about this.  Haven't heard much from Falvey lately though - I wonder why.

Lack of talent, sketchy conditioning and poor coaching have plagued the Twins for a while now. If it wasn't for the quality starts by Ryan, Gray and Lopez, this team would be in the middle of the pack of the AL Central - the worst division in MLB. 

Injuries happen. Just about every player and pitcher goes through slumps. And sometimes a lineup or pitching change blows up. When it seems to be a pattern, fans get frustrated and start assigning blame. 

Yes, the Twins are at the top of their division now. They were through most of last season too, when bad play and decisions - and injuries - killed any hopes of post-season play.

To be accountable, the decision makers need to show the fans that they know how to field a competitive team, that coming close isn't good enough. 

I can't shake the feeling that this FO thinks they're smarter than their results would indicate. They gather a lot of data, but they don't seem to read it well. Or, they are just fundamentally, chronically unlucky. Either way, I'd prefer that they weren't calling the shots.

But to answer your question, keeping Pagan is absolutely about justifying the Padres trade. It's hubris. It seemed ridiculous to keep him over the offseason, and it seems disastrous now. Baseball is very much about momentum - look what has happened to the team since his implosion in LA. The grim spectre of 2022 hangs heavy on the team now, and this was entirely predictable.

To answer the question in the top headline:  for this FO to "admit" anything, they would have to believe they actually owed anyone anything.  Like, oh, I don't know........the fans, maybe?  Seriously, does that sound like this FO?  🤭

11 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

I can't shake the feeling that this FO thinks they're smarter than their results would indicate.

It's what happens with extreme analytics - process is more important than results. Look at their moves after the last 2 years.  After the 2021 debacle they extend Baldelli - results don't matter.  After the 2022 debacle they resign Pagan and fire the trainer - results don't matter, and anyways it was all the injuries' fault.  Oh and the fans' fault - never forget that the FO blamed the fans for last September's meltdown.

It's going to take the organization years to dig out of this mess.  

35 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Someone in the local media should ask Falvey about this.  Haven't heard much from Falvey lately though - I wonder why.

Falvey always shys away from media when twins are playing bad  , 2021 through 2023 ...

When they play bad he has no accountability  , when they play good he can't wait to get the spotlight  ...

Nobody  in this organization is accountable for anything  , players or management  ...

1 hour ago, KBJ1 said:

Pagan is the Ron Davis of the 2020's.

The team has no faith in him and with Theilbar out and Jax now struggling, the bullpen is in serious trouble. I don't know if Chapman would be the answer, but they need someone reliable.

Poor fielding & an atrocious strikeout rate only make matters worse and need to be fixed or this team is going nowhere.

I disagree - The team DOES have faith in him.  Thats what most of us don't understand.  They shouldn't have faith in him, but by resigning him, and then as they keep sending him out.  Why could they possibly have faith in him to keep doing that is the question.

Between some Injuries (again) and stupid management, the Twins again have a B-C lineup in today.  Same old same old.

Poor results in the Pen acquisitions but why wait so long to do SOMETHING? Move Varland to the Pen. Bring up a couple kids. Do SOMETHING!! Night after night same thing. Great starts and then Pen comes in and can't throw strikes!! Insanity is doing the same thing over and over hoping for à better result! We should have a 8-10 game lead with these starters!!

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

What is the supposed connection between being in AAA too long and becoming injury prone?

Wearing out their arms enough to require TJ surgery?

2 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I agree completely.  I think that we have seen them fall in love with the players that they acquire - wanting them to prove their genius.  

I look at the Twins players that were acquired year by year and until Gray and Ryan and Duran came along it is a head shaker.  I have to include Maeda in the positive column too although his health means we only had the shortened year of Covid where he truly shined.  Below is our acquisition list without the four in this paragraph

• 2018 
  • Lance Lynn - 31 games
  • Addison Read - 4,50 era in BP - 55 games
• 2019
  • Martin Perez - 28 games, 5.12 era (and now he shines in Texas
• 2020
  • Sergio Romo - 24 games, 4.05 era
  • Homer Bailey - 2 games
• 2021
  • Alex Colome - 67 games 4.15 era
  • Hansel Robles - 45 games 4.91 era
  • J Happ - 19 starts, 6.77 era
  • Matt Shoemaker - 11 starts, 8.06 era
• 2022
  • Dylan Bundy - 29 starts, 4.89
  • Chris Archer - 25 ga,es 4.56 era
  • Emilio Pagan - 59 games 4.43 era
  • Chris Paddack - 5 games 4.03 era - enjoying a well paid recovery time
  • Tyler Mahle - 4 games 4.41 era - also enjoying a well paid recovery time

This is a very valid list and I do also believe that the FO hates admitting a mistake and many times hold on to that player too long.  That said, it is possible that the reason they do this is because they do not want to release or trade a player only to regret it later on.  A prime example is LaMonte Wade Jr.

I'd just say due to budget restraints they they are big on reclamation projects signing them on the cheap and gibing them one year contracts. No teams want to swim in this pool but we don't have Yankee money. but those are low probability moves. Sometimes I wonder if we are better off giving those innings to young up and coming prospects from our system who are way less costly.

Where I get nervous is when we give a big long term contract to Donaldson where a mistake is magnified both in dollars and years. Which leads us to Correa ... I'm not going to say good or bad move. Simply if he doesn't return to his normal output and or his ankle goes could possibly be an albatross around our neck. I'm just brining this up from a risk factor perspective. What makes this move more risky is we may have had just as good an answer with either Lewis or Lee with a lot less financial outlay.

So to sum it up, the retreads are cheap and we can easily move on if they are wrong but the big dollar commitments are the ones I worry about ... 

1 hour ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Is there an article where the FO blamed the fans for last year's meltdown? I'd love to read that

https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/twins/after-disappointing-season-twins-president-disappointed-fans-are-disappointed?src=rss

Twins fan since inception, I am not a fan of Falvey. Ownership has to be accountable and hoping Young Pohlad is more so than Jim was. Way too many poor decisions, even original Correa signing fell into his lap. With many top SS prospects in our system, I did not like the resigning of Correa. I love Correa as a field general but not at that price. The Donaldson signing was terrible. Braves loved him but would not give him the extra year, only Falvey would. Hoping Encarcion-Strand does not turn into a superstar for Reds after last years trade for Mahle who has already pitched his last inning for Twins. Currently hitting .351 at AAA.  Spencer Steer is also starting for Reds this year at first and third. Paddock was damaged goods that other teams stayed away from at trade deadline and Pagan is our current lighting rod. Gray is a must resign so lets see if they screw that up. I think our entire dugout staff is sketchy. Hitters have no clue, Maki is in over his head and Rocco has now become Mr Platoon with no real feel for the game, just analytics.,  Every game it's pull another line-up out of his ........hat. Rant over. 

Most every management/executive team I’ve seen in many industries has had difficulty admitting they are wrong. I assume it’s a requirement in business management school.