Yankees 8, Twins 1: Twins Hang in There, but Bullpen Again Leads to Blowout

[Hubie29]

9 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

The number of posts her saying how much better the vibes are, etc, really cracks me up. They're losing. That's what matters. And I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, not praising this team and manager. 

Seems like this team is actually worse than last year after the fire sale..... So I'm not sure Rocco was the issue....

Rocco sure didn't help. But Shelton isn't much better. Is this the best we can do for managers? Looking at the bargain basement pick ups we make in the off season, Shelton fits right in with the Twins philosophy. 

[MeleMouth]

9 hours ago, DJL44 said:

I doubt the Taylor Rogers retirement tour sold a single ticket. Next offseason I hope they sign players based on talent and not nostalgia.

The signing made sense initially, because it seemed like they were hoping he would recapture enough of the past to be worth something at the trade deadline. But then he didn't show much and the team decided to buy instead of sell, so two plans failed in the same season.

[Hubie29]

9 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

Reluctantly, I think I have to agree. I didn't like having Rocco at the helm the past few years, but I don't see any real difference in the style of play under Shelton.

If I owned this team, I think I'd use the potentially long offseason to look for a promising new GM and then let that GM select a new manager.

Absolutely! This is just as important as reconstructing the roster.

[Jack Pine]

Face it they never recovered from Falvy's fire sale and a fair amount of our current starters wouldn't be on other teams.

[Hubie29]

8 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

Mets lost too.... those rascals are not going to make it easy on us to pass them for the 5th lotto spot!

Too bad we don't have a 3 game series with them yet. That would lock it up for us.

[Riverbrian]

Just an interesting note. Nothing more... nothing less... but yeah I'm going to point it out. 

Left Handed Starter Max Fried gave up 6 hits over 7 innings. 3 of those hits 6 hits came from left handed batters and the only two extra base hits and the only RBI came from left handed batters.

There were only two left handed hitters in the lineup. 

Over 106 Max Fried thrown innings in 2026. He has been good... very good with a 2.63 ERA and 100 Punch Outs. 

Left Handed Hitters in 2026 have registered a .172 BA and a .469 OPS against Fried.

Right Handed Hitters in 2026 have registered a .206 BA and a .556 OPS against Fried. 

The guy is good against everyone but we are not looking at reverse splits. 

It's one game. Doesn't mean anything by itself but it does lend to the questioning of per AB benefit or per game benefit since the stats we look at are accrued over larger samples. 

  

[Obie]

If Culpepper is done for the year, will that preserve his rookie status for next year? That will keep him below the 130 AB threshold (109 currently), and September days on the roster apparently don't count against the 45 day rule.

[Saxophone Joe]

10 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

Poor Shelty looks like he has aged 15 years in five weeks.

Dude looks totally defeated in those post-game pressers. I've felt bad for Audra, too: "Derek, another tough loss tonight..." 

[Saxophone Joe]

Per Fangraphs, playoff odds are now down to .1%

[LastOnePicked]

49 minutes ago, Saxophone Joe said:

Dude looks totally defeated in those post-game pressers. I've felt bad for Audra, too: "Derek, another tough loss tonight..." 

I mean, this is a guy who coached in Pittsburgh. He sees the cliff for this team. He knows what's ahead for the next few years.

[mikelink45]

I am always fascinated by the critiques of managers - look at what is happening in Cincinnati where Francona is no longer a great manager or when Casey Stengel went from Yankees to Mets.  It still comes down to players.  Put Boone in Sacramento and see how great he is.

True some managers are better, but I do not know how to make that judgement. 

[LastOnePicked]

2 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

True some managers are better, but I do not know how to make that judgement. 

I don't either, so don't feel bad.

I guess I generally go by projected W/L compared with actual W/L. Maybe also a team's record in extra-inning and 1-run games might tell me something. Sometimes it's just a feel for the game that shows up in very small ways - smart match-ups, players who seem to blossom after some coaching, etc.

Something about Rocco signaled a very poor feel for the game. The Twins often seemed out-maneuvered and out-coached. Players seemed uninspired. Excuses for sloppy play were just constant. And that was with a top payroll team in the AL Central.

But the results this year are pretty much the same, so maybe the Twins need to rethink the way they assess and hiring a manager.

[Jasper]

Managers do not pitch field or hit. They can coach them to improve. The team needs a first baseman and a thirdbaseman that can hit both left handed  and right handed pitchers on a consistent basis. Not a stats fanatic but they are out there. Jim says he is going to spend. May need a catcher to replace Jeffers. Lewis Larnach and Bell can go. Sign a couple relief pitchers, the starting 5 will take care of themselves.

[nicksaviking]

11 hours ago, LastOnePicked said:

Poor Shelty looks like he has aged 15 years in five weeks.

Came here to say the same thing. He started the year looking like a virile, early-middle-aged guy who just went grey early. 

Now he looks like he snuck out of the assisted living center mid-nap.

[LastOnePicked]

7 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Now he looks like he snuck out of the assisted living center mid-nap.

Rocco used to look like a beaten stray around this time of year, too. Something about this team can just break a man.

The curse of those cut-down Target Field centerfield pines is fierce and brutal.

[nicksaviking]

25 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

Rocco used to look like a beaten stray around this time of year, too. Something about this team can just break a man.

The curse of those cut-down Target Field centerfield pines is fierce and brutal.

Cut down trees or cut down payroll. Could be either I suppose.....

[bean5302]

Shelton is Rocco 2.0. Zoll is Falvey 2.0. GMs choose managers who reflect their philosophies. I don't see any difference in how the team is constructed or plays. I see an endless supply of utility players who no set home (except Buxton) and the same type of management under Shelton that we saw under Baldelli.

[bean5302]

The Twins scored 1 run against the Yankees. Complain all we want about whether it was Rogers, Ober or Culpeppers error at fault for the loss, but if you don't score more than 1 run against a team like the Yankees, you're not winning.

The Twins haven't won a single game all year by scoring 1 run.

The Twins have won 3 games this year allowing 8. 

The hitting is mostly to blame here.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, mikelink45 said:

I am always fascinated by the critiques of managers - look at what is happening in Cincinnati where Francona is no longer a great manager or when Casey Stengel went from Yankees to Mets.  It still comes down to players.  Put Boone in Sacramento and see how great he is.

True some managers are better, but I do not know how to make that judgement. 

Agreed. It was never about Rocco. 

[LastOnePicked]

18 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Cut down trees or cut down payroll. Could be either I suppose.....

I'm looking forward to the tree replanting ceremony after the work stoppage. Representatives of every faith are invited to come down to TF and de-curse this team.

[MapleGroveTwinsFan]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Agreed. It was never about Rocco. 

When the team was good and had talent he was not good (and that is being kind), I do give him credit  he did get better over time but by then the talent and payroll were less. I watch more games on the other teams channel than the Twins, and I can't even count the times the other announcers would question what the Twins were doing and/or just laugh and explain why it was such a bad decision.  We will know what the rest of the league thinks of him by how many more chances he gets to manage.

[MeleMouth]

3 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I am always fascinated by the critiques of managers - look at what is happening in Cincinnati where Francona is no longer a great manager or when Casey Stengel went from Yankees to Mets.  It still comes down to players.  Put Boone in Sacramento and see how great he is.

True some managers are better, but I do not know how to make that judgement. 

Some managerial skills that might matter:

1. The ability to see beyond the immediate decision, in terms of the long-term benefit to the team. Whitey Herzog was great at this.

2. The ability to meet players' moods as needed. Sparky Anderson was great at this, and Joe Madden was for a time, also. Billy Martin was famously great at the motivational part of moods for about half a season before his excessive fieriness would wear out its welcome.

3. The ability to require upper management to obtain a certain level of talent. "You want me to manage your ballclub? This is what it'll take." Jim Leyland and Bruce Bochy became good at this.

Unfortunately, for the Twins, it seems that these skills haven't been important and may have even been negative factors in the hiring process. Instead, large positive factors in managerial choices by the Twins for the last many years have been the abilities to (i) pleasantly comply with orders from above and (ii) put a good spin on bad situations. You don't need much skill to write up a line-up and make substitutions based on platoon theories.

I suspect that Rocco could have been better at #s 1 and 2 above, but that complying with orders made him focus on executing what the algorithm said to do in any specific situation, with little regard to long-term effects, and to stay in a zen and almost flat mode that might have been good for some players some of the time, but may not have been helpful for many players. Note comments from some players that the mood in the clubhouse this year, with Shelton and his larger emotional range, is better than they've seen.

However, nothing about Rocco or Shelton indicates they can successfully demand more talent from upper management beyond asking pretty please.

[TheLeviathan]

6 hours ago, DJL44 said:

It is more pleasant to follow the team when there isn’t constant complaining about Rocco. I said before the season this team changed management as little as possible. I wonder if “run it back again” will be the philosophy again this offseason or if they will make actual changes.

Ringing endorsement: I like this new manager mostly because it stopped a bunch of jerks on Twins Daily from obsessively posting about the former manager.

[TheLeviathan]

5 hours ago, Hubie29 said:

Rocco sure didn't help. But Shelton isn't much better. Is this the best we can do for managers? Looking at the bargain basement pick ups we make in the off season, Shelton fits right in with the Twins philosophy. 

It's not about Rocco and Shelton.  Or the next guy.  The organization needs new leadership.

Big league managers are not vital to success.  They're not the ones teaching fundamentals in A ball.  They aren't the ones teaching base-running in AA.  They make a lineup that is pretty much predetermined by organizational standards every day.

All Shelton did was spend a month getting lucky that scrubs on his team sequenced their way into runs.  This is your "More you know moment": The Twins currently have a worse run differential than the 58 win Angels.  

This team is lucky to have 70 wins.  Lucky.

[mikelink45]

53 minutes ago, MeleMouth said:

Some managerial skills that might matter:

1. The ability to see beyond the immediate decision, in terms of the long-term benefit to the team. Whitey Herzog was great at this.

2. The ability to meet players' moods as needed. Sparky Anderson was great at this, and Joe Madden was for a time, also. Billy Martin was famously great at the motivational part of moods for about half a season before his excessive fieriness would wear out its welcome.

3. The ability to require upper management to obtain a certain level of talent. "You want me to manage your ballclub? This is what it'll take." Jim Leyland and Bruce Bochy became good at this.

Unfortunately, for the Twins, it seems that these skills haven't been important and may have even been negative factors in the hiring process. Instead, large positive factors in managerial choices by the Twins for the last many years have been the abilities to (i) pleasantly comply with orders from above and (ii) put a good spin on bad situations. You don't need much skill to write up a line-up and make substitutions based on platoon theories.

I suspect that Rocco could have been better at #s 1 and 2 above, but that complying with orders made him focus on executing what the algorithm said to do in any specific situation, with little regard to long-term effects, and to stay in a zen and almost flat mode that might have been good for some players some of the time, but may not have been helpful for many players. Note comments from some players that the mood in the clubhouse this year, with Shelton and his larger emotional range, is better than they've seen.

However, nothing about Rocco or Shelton indicates they can successfully demand more talent from upper management beyond asking pretty please.

You think anyone could demand that the Pohlads sign more talent? 

Billy Martin was famous for getting in fights and getting fired - besides burning out his pitchers arms.

Joe Madden looked great when his players were good, but like every manager it is the team.  Joe did not look so good in the Angels Death Valley.

I will say that Kevin Cash is a really great manager and part of that is the new world where the GM and manager have to be in sync.