Good-bye Rocco

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

So what?  They cited the TV revenue.  They also had an additional $30M decrease in BAM money.  Does that not count because the media (especially TD writers) ignored that loss.  None of this is a direct comparison of spending so why are you using this number?  We know exactly how much spending was cut.

You are suggesting there was another $40M that could have been spent when they cut spending $25M.  Of course, suggesting spending didn't need to be cut ignores the loss of BAM and whatever they lost in TV revenue.  You are only acknowledging information that you want to recognize.   

I think it's reasonable to expect the team to spend what it can.  I also think it's reasonable to assume that the choice not to spend to improve the quality of your roster will show up in the quality of the results as well.  

[C-Gangster]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

He's not helping.

Well right now.

[Florida Flash]

My biggest gripe with Rocco is his obsession with removing the starting pitcher no later than the 6th ining, even when that pitcher is going good....going well....whatever. However the main reason for Rocco to be fired is because, as the saying goes, you cant fire ALL the players. I am okay with keeping Rocco, but I think I would fire the whole coaching staff except for maybe Maki, unless Pete is actually making the pitching changes. Especially because the bullpen is not all that strong.. Still, the offense is the biggest problem IMO.

[RpR]

Baldelli reminds me of Gene Mauch, very good until it really counts, then PFFFT!

[beckmt]

I think the Correa quote from Wednesday was telling.  The man wants to win.  Rocco does not have the ability to light a fire under the players.  I think that quote was the end for Rocco, and I hope the Twins keep Correa around after his playing days are over.  

[karcherd]

On 9/25/2024 at 10:22 AM, C-Gangster said:

No ones perfect he has a few flaws but he knows how to win ballgames. Also the twins are just in slump right now. Personally I really like Rocco 

Have you been watching the games, Rocco does not know how to win games.

[karcherd]

On 9/25/2024 at 3:22 PM, C-Gangster said:

Why is everyone hating on Rocco. Its our Ownership that's the problem and He has nothing to work with.

It's not like we had a $50m payroll.  Yes they cut payroll and probably shouldn't have.  But we have two of the largest contracts in Twins history and the front office was unable to build anything around that.  This front office has not shown they know how to run a major league franchise and it starts with them.

[Hubie29]

On 9/25/2024 at 10:17 AM, JBK said:

Please fire Baldelli.  Analytics are not what baseball is about.  You've gotta go with your gut as well.  Yanking starters and never playing a consistent line-up is not how you play baseball on the major league level.

I agree with you 100%. However the problem is the front office doesn't agree. 

[2wins87]

On 9/25/2024 at 4:22 PM, C-Gangster said:

Why is everyone hating on Rocco. Its our Ownership that's the problem and He has nothing to work with.

I generally like Rocco fine too, but the team did still have plenty of talent for him to work with even with ownership fumbling a chance to build on last year.

I know the incessant and reflexive "FIRE ROCCO!1!" crowd is annoying, but on one of the main criticisms, that he doesn't really have much fire, I can't disagree.

I noticed recently that he hasn't been ejected once this year, a first in his managerial career.  It doesn't seem like he bothers to argue about a bad strike zone much either.  Does working the umps or making a show to try to fire up your team actually help?  I don't know, I'm pretty ambivalent on that, but if it does actually help even a little, it's definitely not one of his strong suits.

Bottom line, I do think that sometimes a change just to break the habits and routines can be good.  I personally just don't see a compelling reason to keep him (or Popkins) at this point.  I'm open to hearing one.

[Jim wyllie]

I agree that it's time to move on from Rocco, he has been a solid manager but doesn't use his baseball instincts. He only follows analytics which is a path to failure.   Yes ownership needs to put more onto the roster financially but it's time to move on from baldelli.   I would also state what hurts teams like the twins even more is that despite the nfl, nba, wnba, and NHL having a hard salary cap, base all does not and most definitely needs one to put player salaries under control.    It would be as simple as putting a cap 190 and a floor at 120.  Especially considering there are mlb teams paying 26 players more than nfl teams pay 53 players

[Hubie29]

If Pohlad does not improve this rostor by spending more money, yes Pohlad, we as a state HAVE to stay away from Target Field. Do we want another less than mediocre team again next year? The season would be a waste of time and money spent by fans. 

[Craig Arko]

15 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

If Pohlad does not improve this rostor by spending more money, yes Pohlad, we as a state HAVE to stay away from Target Field. Do we want another less than mediocre team again next year? The season would be a waste of time and money spent by fans. 

Pretty sure nobody is going to force you to spend a dime.

[karcherd]

30 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

If Pohlad does not improve this rostor by spending more money, yes Pohlad, we as a state HAVE to stay away from Target Field. Do we want another less than mediocre team again next year? The season would be a waste of time and money spent by fans. 

How much do you want them to spend, what would be the right number for payroll next year.  It is easy to say spend more, but how much more.

[Craig Arko]

 

[spanman2]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:37 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don't care if they fire Baldelli at this point but he's not the problem. Until the Pohlads fire themselves, the guiltiest parties will go unpunished.

Hey Zygi...wanna buy a baseball team...

[Hubie29]

1 hour ago, karcherd said:

How much do you want them to spend, what would be the right number for payroll next year.  It is easy to say spend more, but how much more.

Let's say $50 mil. That's about what it's going to take to fix this dumpster fire. Also includes Roccos salary after he gets fired. 

[Cave Bear]

On 9/27/2024 at 9:43 AM, LambchoP said:

There HAS to be some kind of accountability for this horrible collapse, starting with the manager. He seems to have no baseball IQ or common sense. Guy strikes out four times, ok we'll have you leadoff tomorrow. Margot goes 0-30 pinch hitting? No biggie, we'll just keep trying. That's not managing, that's just being idiotic. Twins need a new manager and hitting coach at the very least.

For someone who has played the game at a high level he seems to be absolutely clueless at times. (a lot of times)

[Need4speed99]

On 9/25/2024 at 3:22 PM, C-Gangster said:

Why is everyone hating on Rocco. Its our Ownership that's the problem and He has nothing to work with.

Ownership is definitely a problem and as long as the pohlads are owners the twins will not be contenders. 

However, when a team collapses THAT badly clearly management needs to be changed.

[Craig Arko]

Baldelli has one year left on his contract. I doubt he’ll receive a pre-season extension. Then we’ll see.

[insagt1]

The players have all closed ranks and have given Rocco a vote of confidence...saying the blame is all on them for not getting the job done.

Well OF COURSE thats what the players say 99% of the time. (only when the manager is universally despised do the players NOT back their manager and that is pretty rare)

I don't place much credence on any statements by players or Falvey or anyone else right now. The landscape is littered with statements like 'our manager (coach) is not going anywhere. He's our guy' only to see him get canned sometimes as soon as the next day.

Yes, Rocco is under contract for another year, right? And the frugal Twins aren't likely to pay two managers' salaries for a year, right? But maybe they would if the right manager floats to the top.

Historically collapses like this result in a leadership change. So we'll have to see. Rocco may well be back, or not.

[Craig Arko]

21 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

The players have all closed ranks and have given Rocco a vote of confidence...saying the blame is all on them for not getting the job done.

Well OF COURSE thats what the players say 99% of the time. (only when the manager is universally despised do the players NOT back their manager and that is pretty rare)

I don't place much credence on any statements by players or Falvey or anyone else right now. The landscape is littered with statements like 'our manager (coach) is not going anywhere. He's our guy' only to see him get canned sometimes as soon as the next day.

Yes, Rocco is under contract for another year, right? And the frugal Twins aren't likely to pay two managers' salaries for a year, right? But maybe they would if the right manager floats to the top.

Historically collapses like this result in a leadership change. So we'll have to see. Rocco may well be back, or not.

Who would you see as that ‘right manager?’

[insagt1]

Just now, Craig Arko said:

Who would you see as that ‘right manager?’

Million dollar question. I don't know. Thats up to management to figure out. My only contention has been that when you see a collapse like the 2024 Twins, it may be time for a different voice to take the reins. It happens all the time. So I won't be surprised if Rocco is ultimately let go. But I guess I won't be totally surprised if he stays. But I lean towards the former, not the latter.

Not a satisfying response, I know.

[Craig Arko]

2 minutes ago, insagt1 said:

Million dollar question. I don't know. Thats up to management to figure out. My only contention has been that when you see a collapse like the 2024 Twins, it may be time for a different voice to take the reins. It happens all the time. So I won't be surprised if Rocco is ultimately let go. But I guess I won't be totally surprised if he stays. But I lean towards the former, not the latter.

Not a satisfying response, I know.

No, but it’s pretty much the same response all of us have. I just don’t see the silver bullet that’s going to fix everything anytime soon.

[Aggies7]

37 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

No, but it’s pretty much the same response all of us have. I just don’t see the silver bullet that’s going to fix everything anytime soon.

This is an odd way of thinking. You don’t see anyone who might make some better decisions or keep the team from collapsing so we should just stand pat. With what’s not working. I’d have to think, in the entirety of the baseball world, there could possibly be someone whose managing could win a few more ballgames. Not really a silver bullet thing, more of a “maybe we can do better” thing.

Quite frankly, the way that 2 of the past 3 seasons ended is more than enough reason to try someone else. 

[Craig Arko]

57 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

This is an odd way of thinking. You don’t see anyone who might make some better decisions or keep the team from collapsing so we should just stand pat. With what’s not working. I’d have to think, in the entirety of the baseball world, there could possibly be someone whose managing could win a few more ballgames. Not really a silver bullet thing, more of a “maybe we can do better” thing.

Quite frankly, the way that 2 of the past 3 seasons ended is more than enough reason to try someone else. 

Yes, well when I start thinking like everyone else, it’ll be time to call the undertaker. 

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, Craig Arko said:

Yes, well when I start thinking like everyone else, it’ll be time to call the undertaker. 

Probably happen around the time we see someone in a twins uniform holding a World Series trophy 🤷‍♂️

[nicksaviking]

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

This is an odd way of thinking. You don’t see anyone who might make some better decisions or keep the team from collapsing so we should just stand pat. With what’s not working. I’d have to think, in the entirety of the baseball world, there could possibly be someone whose managing could win a few more ballgames. Not really a silver bullet thing, more of a “maybe we can do better” thing.

Quite frankly, the way that 2 of the past 3 seasons ended is more than enough reason to try someone else. 

It's just too tough to gauge in this sport. It's not like football where you can say, wow, that guy really knows how to run an offense or defense or college team, he'd make a good NFL head coach.

Unless you think the team can call out of retirement and dust the cobwebs off of some former WS champ like Francona, Maddon or Baker, you're probably just going back to taking another stab at someone untested and/or unknown.

Which, I'm completely willing to do, but it's not like any of us would have more than a hunch, best we can ask for is to give it a shot with Hypothetical Manager X.

[The Great Hambino]

5 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

It's just too tough to gauge in this sport. It's not like football where you can say, wow, that guy really knows how to run an offense or defense or college team, he'd make a good NFL head coach.

Unless you think the team can call out of retirement and dust the cobwebs off of some former WS champ like Francona, Maddon or Baker, you're probably just going back to taking another stab at someone untested and/or unknown.

Which, I'm completely willing to do, but it's not like any of us would have more than a hunch, best we can ask for is to give it a shot with Hypothetical Manager X.

As a recent convert to the Fire Rocco side of the ledger, a shot with Hypothetical Manager X is all I'm asking for.  I agree that baseball is a very different animal than other sports, and that a good manager only provides marginal improvement.  But wouldn't that mean a bad manager only has a marginal negative effect as well?  Given the status quo, I'd take that risk.  A marginal improvement is still an improvement. 

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

As a recent convert to the Fire Rocco side of the ledger, a shot with Hypothetical Manager X is all I'm asking for.  I agree that baseball is a very different animal than other sports, and that a good manager only provides marginal improvement.  But wouldn't that mean a bad manager only has a marginal negative effect as well?  Given the status quo, I'd take that risk.  A marginal improvement is still an improvement. 

For the record (focusing on the second half of your comment)....yes, I think you're right.  I think if they screw up the next hire it also will have a marginally negative effect.  I think we're programmed to want a head to roll as a consequence for a bad season.  Or to shake things up.  Or whatever other cliche.  I think psychologically it can be good for a group of players even, but the net gain from that wanes over time to make very little difference.  (I feel this about hockey as well FWIW.  What the Wild did last year standing as a good example)

If he's fired I'd shrug.  If he's retained....I'd shrug.  My more interested in the organizational philosophies and how they keep 130M payroll and get any better.  

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

As a recent convert to the Fire Rocco side of the ledger, a shot with Hypothetical Manager X is all I'm asking for.  I agree that baseball is a very different animal than other sports, and that a good manager only provides marginal improvement.  But wouldn't that mean a bad manager only has a marginal negative effect as well?  Given the status quo, I'd take that risk.  A marginal improvement is still an improvement. 

And I don't have any particular animosity towards Baldelli, but we've seen what happens when things get stale. It took Tom Kelly NINE years to pull the team out a tailspin in 2021 and he was given the grace to retire. As much as everyone loved TK, that was wildly irresponsible. Gardenhire got four years before making a change. I don't want four years. I don't want two years. 

If you can identify when things are dragging on the bottom, pull the plug and try again even if it's just to shake things up.